92 replies to this topic

[Trogdor]

I am not a basher by nature.

Being a JV fan, I have far too much experience with anti-driver animosity to allow myself to ruin things for any other driver's fans. And, I like to think I've got an objective mind.

But I wanted to point out some serious, um, character deficiencies in Felipe Massa.

Flash back to 2005. JV was under pressure to perform, and expected to outperform his teammate, almost right out of the gate. Obviously, he didn't. We can argue until the end of days about why JV's first half of 2005 was abysmal, but that's not the point of this post (and despite the reasons, I will concede that maybe JV just didn't "have it" until at least Monaco).

But at every step of the way, it became clear that, in the battle of teammates:

1) JV had a new, changed attitude. Gone were the days of boy-band-Button-bashing. He was very positive and complimentary towards FM all year. Every time JV had a bad performance, he blamed himself or external conditions. Sometimes he tried to explain why he thought he wasn't producing results, with respect to the car's setup and electronics issues. But for the most part he was gracious, and never once spoke against FM, except perhaps in a Matt Bishop candid interview about the Monaco incident. Most importantly, he didn't engage in constant excuses -- he accepted his crap results, and tried to do better.

2) FM was a showboater par excellence. At every opportunity, he made sure he was on the more aggressive strategy, knowing that he would seriously show up JV in qualifying (after Monaco when low-fuel runs were cancelled). After every single result, whether it was a GOOD or BAD result for him, he would engage in hypotheticals. Dig up some archives of driver quotes. "Too bad I DNF'ed, if I didn't I would have got points for sure." "I'm happy with the points, but if X Y and Z hadn't happened, then for sure I would have gotten more points." And so forth. Constantly. ALL THE TIME.

Now, I'm the first to concede that FM has got speed. He's a good qualifier, and a very aggressive driver, and particularly he's grown up with Ferrari electronics and he is very very adept at extracting performance from that package. He also has poor racecraft in general, not in terms of his starts or defensive driving (which are fantastic), but in terms of pushing too hard, crashing into people kamikaze style (like DC), and eating up his tires really badly. Unfortunately, this year (lucky for him) tire management is far less relevant.

But the guy is inarguably the most classless driver in the paddock, bar none.

Did you guys see him today? He looked wrecked in the press conference. And I'm not just pointing out the fact that he publicly engaged in WOULDA, COULDA, SHOULDA-speak yet again, and seemed visibly disappointed to have missed pipping Schumacher for the pole.

The guy actually THANKED Fisichella for ruining his lap. He didn't mention it with disappointment, like "oh well, that's racing", in the context of his disappointment. He actually THANKED Fisi, which amounts to a great bick "FVCK YOU!" or one of Alonso's trademark fingers of indignation.

That was the most appalling thing I've ever seen on television. Well, at least in a sports broadcast.

Thank you for listening. And if you didn't listen, I'd like to THANK YOU for ruining my post.

[Mr M0by]

Originally posted by Trogdor
That was the most appalling thing I've ever seen on television. Well, at least in a sports broadcast.

I'd say you were being way OTT (as if no-one has ever said anything worse in a Press Conference etc etc) but i'd fear I could ruin the rest of this thread.

[riffola]

Chill out man. Many drivers point out someone who ruined their lap. Sarcasm is not new to PC. MH was the king of sarcasm.

Now as for how Massa sounded, I took it to mean he is not experienced with press conf. and was nervous. Give him time, it's the first time he's been in the PC, I think.

[Trogdor]

Well, I meant the most appalling thing that wasn't part of the actual game/sport itself.

The only thing I can recall that comes close was an outburst by Emmanuel Sandhu, a canadian figure skater, just a few weeks ago in Torino. He basically bashed the whole Canadian Olympic Committee and Skate Canada for leaving him off the team the last olympics, and blamed them for undermining him psychologically for his whole career.

[xype]

I only fear that, while Schumacher seemed quite friendly towards Massa, he might get colder on track and as talanted as Massa may be (and he is, definately more than Barrichello), I fully expect Schumacher's genious to flame up now and then just to put the boy into place.

As for the points you made - I did notice his constant excuses reading Sauber's press statements last season. This, coupled with his erratic driving and acted "coolness" leads me to belive that he's still a bit insecure and is overcompensating. If you are confident in your abilities, you don't need excuses when things go bad. When you spin every second lap while the whole world is watching, you probably lose parts ofyour confidence along the way.

I really wish Massa well, but I would hate him to continue with that behaviour once he does get successful.

[Trogdor]

riffola: You didn't have to endure his comments with agony last year. And seriously, this wasn't that mild.

MS had just slapped him on the back in congratulatory fashion, and what MS basically did was take a suck, whining and implying that he was faster than MS and everyone would have KNOWN it if only Fisichella hadn't maliciously botched his flyer.

He said it without any hint of humour. From what I've seen of archived footage, Mika had a wry sense of humour similar to Kimi. But when Massa says something like this, you can bet it isn't to break up the tension. It's to heap praise on himself.

xype: I agree. I think MS will respond very coldly. As for Massa vs. Barrichello, I'd take Massa a hundred times given the chance. I've only ever seen Barrichello drive well once (that time he moved up from the back of the grid to be 3rd in 2004, after a rear-wing change during the race -- Japan?)

[xype]

Originally posted by riffola
Many drivers point out someone who ruined their lap.

I think the problem is not this single incident. If you look over the press statements of 2005, Massa is often pointing out how much further up the grid he would have landed if this or that hadn't happened. Being that close to Schumacher in his first qualifying for Ferrari, he really didn't need to moan. Everyone noticed he's fast already.

[riffola]

Originally posted by xype

I think the problem is not this single incident. If you look over the press statements of 2005, Massa is often pointing out how much further up the grid he would have landed if this or that hadn't happened. Being that close to Schumacher in his first qualifying for Ferrari, he really didn't need to moan. Everyone noticed he's fast already.

Ah gotcha, I guess when you put it in perspective like that he does seem petty.

[senna da silva]

He's young and motivated. Should he be happy that Fisi ruined his lap? Should he be happy he's behind Michael? He's got some fire in the belly and personally I like it. F1 is far too sanitized, I like drivers who speak their mind and are passionate about what they're doing. Reminds me a bit of a young JV.

[Rene]

I think Massa when he was out performed by Villeneuve always had an excuse, and claimed he would have performed better if.... however I think his attitude is exactly what a really quick driver needs to win, he really believes hes the best....good for him I say...

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by xype

If you look over the press statements of 2005, Massa is often pointing out how much further up the grid he would have landed if this or that hadn't happened.

So he did learn something from Jacques

[Jordan191]

Q: How many F1 drivers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: 22 . One to screw in the lightbulb. And 21 to say they could have done it faster had they had a better lightbulb, etc.

That's all I gotta say on this subject.

[jimm]

Originally posted by Jordan191
Q: How many F1 drivers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: 22 . One to screw in the lightbulb. And 21 to say they could have done it faster had they had a better lightbulb, etc.

That's all I gotta say on this subject.

Actually 20 say they needed the better light bulb, the last one says the team gave him the bad light bulb ;)

[troyf1]

Originally posted by Jordan191
Q: How many F1 drivers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: 22 . One to screw in the lightbulb. And 21 to say they could have done it faster had they had a better lightbulb, etc.

That's all I gotta say on this subject.

[Fortymark]

I must say it´s great that he has this attitude as a Ferrari driver. He seems a little obsessed with Michael and really wants to beat him, that´s good. I remember in the race of champions, he did everything to beat Michael.

We´ll see tomorrow, if he´s a number two driver not going for the lead but concentrating on protecting Michael and holding the others up like Fisi did in the last race.

I hope he doesn´t go the naive route, to think that he´ll get his chance if Michael retires or whatever. I hope he does everything to beat him even if that means he spins off once in a while.
He can afford it, while Michael will look stupid if he does the same.

If he´s an arrogant ****, I don´t care because he´s partnered with the big ego MS.

[Levike]

From his first year, i supported Massa, because it's no secret, i support reckless, agressive drivinf, drivers with balls. During the years he faded a little bit, but now, when he is in the right car, and in the right team, he is showing his class. I think, he is the best driver ever who is SCH' teammate. His laps are consistent, and the in cae camers tells that he is cool and he is on full control of his car. He can lap as fast as Schumacher everytime he wants,and this is enough. So, go Massa, go ! :I)

[Lantern]

After the qualifying I thought that things were different when Massa gave Schumacher a friendly jolt to the shoulder and then into an enthusiastic hug. But, after the moaning I see that things may be EXACTLY the same.



Saying that traffic was a problem is one thing, but to say that if it were not for it you would have not made any mistakes the rest of the way to your deserved pole position....what an @ss. Button was much better at "blaming" the traffic today.

[Bruce]

yeah - in some ways, I found his comment a little annoying - but think about it - this is his moment. If he is to excel at Ferrari, he has to do something no one else has - beat MS early and often. To be so close to doing so, and having it ruined by the presence of another car must have been intensely disappointing for him. I still think it would have showed more class, though, to accept it as what it was, unfortunate timing and get on with it.

[Dragonfly]

Originally posted by Jordan191
Q: How many F1 drivers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: 22 . One to screw in the lightbulb. And 21 to say they could have done it faster had they had a better lightbulb, etc.

That's all I gotta say on this subject.

I like that

[Lada Lover]

Did you see the blood drain away from MS? He went white as a ghost.

Massa driving

Massa PR

[Pioneer]

More like

Q: How many F1 drivers does it take to screw in a lightbulb.
A: 22. One to screw in the lightbulb. 3 to say that they got caught up in traffic during their hot screwing attempt. 4 to say they got a bad set of screw threads before their last screw attempt. 1 whose lightbulb had electrical problems and stopped in mid screw. 2 who missed the socket and smashed into the ceiling showering broken glass down on the carpet that other would-be screwers had to walk through. 8 who's bulb manufacturers simply couldn't afford the money it cost to machine the screws to the finest precision and lubricate them just properly and screw them with highest amount of torque and so they were simply to slow from the get go to outscrew their opponents. 2 who HAD the proper expensively manufactured bulbs needed for high speed screwing but scraped an inside thread wall at the apex of one of their rotations and lost time. Finally, 1 Finn whose bulb spontaneously combusted just as he was about to screw.

[Ghostrider]

Will be interesting to see how Massa fares in the race, when he gets it right in qual he is usually quite fast. Haven't seen that many overly impressive races from him though, but hopefullly he can provide some this year.

Regarding his comments, I think it is good that he is not settling for 2nd place from the beginning, but of course he shouldn't start too much with excuses etc. It never looks good.

[vroom-vroom]

Class has nothing to do with F1. Why single out Massa? This is not ballet.

[Dragonfly]

@Pioneer
Very creative!

[Trogdor]

I'm the OP, and I should've stated I have no problems with Massa's ATTITUDE in terms of his internal fire and motivation. But he should learn to show more restraint in public venues, and not to be such a graceless jerk.

[MrSlow]

Must not forget the fact that he was indeed held up by traffic. Beating MS for pole in his first race for Ferrari would have felt quite good I believe.

About Massa "made sure he was on the more aggressive strategy, knowing that he would seriously show up JV in qualifying"... seriously? Do you think Peter Sauber would have let him do that? As I remember, that was what everybody said when Jenson beat JV as well. If it is true one must ask why on earth JV does not ask for a light car.

Barrichello was BTW further behind Jenson that he usually was behind Schumi, so so far maybe we can simply admit that maybe Villenueve have been paired with pretty string team mates and does not really need to be ashamed of his performance.

[Topweasel]

A.) All drivers say someone screwed up their time, except the pole setter.
B.) Some drivers point fingures some don't.
C.) Sometimes the incident calls for fingure pointing.

As for him broken down Think back to 2000 When Michael won at Monza and broke down crying. For Massa I think he realized that he Just got his best result ever and is really Driving for Ferrari. I saw the tears, if he cries because he lost to michael, I hope Massa leaves after this saeson because no matter how the WDC and WCC turns out I know that he is going to lose to MS quite a bit this season.

[Gemini]

"Kimi to Ferrari in 2007.."
"MS to continue in 2007.."
"Rossi to Ferrari in 2007.."

Massa reads this news as well. Being 0,05 behind or 0,05 ahead of MS benchmark may define his carreer. Maybe he knows he has only few GP to show that. Maybe he knows he needs new job for 2007. And this 0,05 sec may decide how good this new job will be...?

[baddog]

Originally posted by Trogdor
That was the most appalling thing I've ever seen on television. Well, at least in a sports broadcast.

Thats strange, I have seen:

A driver take another one out on purpose.
A driver punch another in the face.
A driver knock marshalls around.
A driver accuse another driver or killing somone.

Accusing someone of holding up a qual lap seems a bit tame eh.

Shaun

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by Gemini
"Kimi to Ferrari in 2007.."
"MS to continue in 2007.."
"Rossi to Ferrari in 2007.."

Massa reads this news as well. Being 0,05 behind or 0,05 ahead of MS benchmark may define his carreer. Maybe he knows he has only few GP to show that. Maybe he knows he needs new job for 2007. And this 0,05 sec may decide how good this new job will be...?

I wouldn't say that Irvine and Barichello where except when everything was right generally a half a second to a second down and both got amazing contracts to go to another team, Barichello even got poached. Todt probably only brought on Massa because Barichello created a gap and it was an oportunity to make money for his son (who is Massas manager) If Ferrari give Massa a couple complimentory MS has already tied up the WDC wins, then Massa will go to another team probably the one who didn't get KR for a large sum of money which in turn makes his kid even more money.

[Rene]

Originally posted by vroom-vroom
Class has nothing to do with F1. Why single out Massa? This is not ballet.

No Kidding

[Dudley]

Originally posted by xype
I only fear that, while Schumacher seemed quite friendly towards Massa, he might get colder on track and as talanted as Massa may be (and he is, definately more than Barrichello), I fully expect Schumacher's genious to flame up now and then just to put the boy into place.

I'm actually not convinced.

I think 2005 brought it home to him that he's got many more years behind him than in front of him and he might have a new attitude now.

btw, first time out, Irvine beat MS in qualifying...

[jimm]

Originally posted by Dudley


I'm actually not convinced.

I think 2005 brought it home to him that he's got many more years behind him than in front of him and he might have a new attitude now.

btw, first time out, Irvine beat MS in qualifying...

And did not get to test the car againg until July after he outqualified him either

[mclarenroxxors]

I agree. And I support Massa. I WOULD BE THRILLED TO WATCH MASSA WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP AND IM A MCLAREN FAN. I don't care if he's not Jesus, I am not looking for a saint. I am looking for someone to blow away that arrogant german with pure superior speed! I loved Massas comment and watching Michaels face when he said it. Michael is shaken.

[Schuting Star]

He nearly beat Michael at the first shot and was hugely disappointed. I can't blame him, he was mighty impressive today and nearly embarrassed his teammate, his reaction just shows how much he wanted that. Surelya teammate that is out there to challenge and beat Michael is what everyone wants? It was an unfortunate comment perhaps but hardly that much of a big deal.

[V10 Fireworks]

Surely it's just not possible that Massa was not on lighter fuel, it's totally implausible

[giacomo]

Originally posted by Trogdor
That was the most appalling thing I've ever seen on television. Well, at least in a sports broadcast.

Apparently you did not watch the Prost/Senna wars on TV.

[Trogdor]

Originally posted by MrSlow
About Massa "made sure he was on the more aggressive strategy, knowing that he would seriously show up JV in qualifying"... seriously? Do you think Peter Sauber would have let him do that? As I remember, that was what everybody said when Jenson beat JV as well. If it is true one must ask why on earth JV does not ask for a light car.

Barrichello was BTW further behind Jenson that he usually was behind Schumi, so so far maybe we can simply admit that maybe Villenueve have been paired with pretty string team mates and does not really need to be ashamed of his performance.

I'm not implying a conspiracy. But Sauber's official policy was to put the cars on radically different strategies, knowing they had no chance for legitimate points otherwise, and if any incidents occured, having the cars covering the extreme ends of the spectrum would ensure maximum chances for ONE of the cars, and unfortunately minimum for the other.

Massa going light almost 100% of the time was probably not only down to Massa wanting to, but also down to Villeneuve (and in the later races, the team) feeling confident that only Villeneuve could handle a really heavy car in non-ideal conditions.

Do you guys remember JV's race at Spa? It was amazing. Also, Magny-Cours, in which Jacques had a much heavier car and still came within a tenth of Massa's quali run. In fact, Canada was the only race where I remember Jacques being lighter than Massa, and apparently it was only slightly lighter despite the half-second differential.

The team just didn't trust Massa to handle a pig of a car. Which is part of why I feel he isn't a complete driver yet -- he's very good on super-aggressive, low-ish fuel, light starting cars pushed to the limit. In bad conditions and with heavy cars and not so great tires, he gets bogged down pretty badly.

[Foxbat]

Comments of Schumacher beinmg over the hill and/or shaken are early this year, especially considering he won the session

This system of qualifying sure does make it likely that each session several drivers will be held up by others, or to keep to the analogy: drivers are squirming like moths around the lamp, even between screw-in attempts.

[Cosmograph]

Originally posted by scheivlak

So he did learn something from Jacques

JV is usually honest about a situation. Massa is very quick and truth be told he might have had pole position today. However, its a case of could have, should have, would have, and he would have been best advised to congratulate MS, thank the team, and leave it at that ...

[kar]

He's 24, English is not his native language, and unlike the drivers for other star teams probably hasn't undergone media indoctrination yet.

What you saw was a kid (and I don't mean it in a pejorative sense, I am the same age ) emotional, excited, bewildered by everything that was happening to him.

Seriously cut him some slack, he's probably just had the best moment of his life, qualifying at the front of the grid with a marquee team, and his childhood idol next to him.

[mach4]

It's funny how Ferrari changed his quote for the official press release:

Felipe Massa - 2nd: (...)

"It's a pity that the traffic on the last lap prevented me from perhaps improving on my time: these are things that happen with this new qualifying format. Maybe next time it might be my turn to take advantage of the situation!

(...)

[MrSlow]

Originally posted by mach4
It's funny how Ferrari changed his quote for the official press release:

That is the only one I seen, what did he really say?

[MFOT]

Originally posted by Trogdor
[B]I am not a basher by nature.

Being a JV fan...

Wow... a JV fan bashing another driver for a lack of class.... oh the irony!

JV is the definition of lack of class. The guy has badmouthed pretty much every driver that has come through F1. He had publicly dispairaged his team when he was with BAR.

The guy is nothing more than a marginal driver that took way too long to secure a WDC when he was in clearly the must dominant car on the track in 1997 and has been a flop when he has had to develope a marginal car himself. And along the way his mouth keeps on flapping.

I just find that a JV fan bad mouthing ANY driver for a lack of class to be truly hilarious.

[Trogdor]

Your point is utterly idiotic. *I* am not JV, and I'm the one who pointed it out.

JV himself said nothing about Massa, and had nothing but professional and positive comments to make about Massa during all of last year.

The issue is not what JV has done in the past, or even what he's like now (which is obviously a much mellower and more refined individual).

I'm simply pointing out something that Massa did.

And I simply CAN'T BELIEVE that Ferrari edited what he said in the press conference. That is CRAZY.

Here's what he really said:

"As for my lap, I’m really happy to be second, but honestly, I have to thank Giancarlo (Fisichella) because he took away my pole position, because I was going to improve my lap time on the last run and I hit traffic, but anyway, great start."

[mach4]

Originally posted by MrSlow

That is the only one I seen, what did he really say?

"As for my lap, I'm really happy to be second, but honestly, I have to thank Giancarlo (Fisichella) because he took away my pole position, because I was going to improve my lap time on the last run and I hit traffic, but anyway, great start."

[MrSlow]

Jeebuz, can they really do that? I mean he said what he said, did he not? They can change it like "Felipe hit some traffic, but is generally happy" but changing it like it is quote is quite wierd. Oh well, it will make people follow the live broadcasts and not the edited versions. Trogdor, if Massa wins tomorrow, don't jump from a high building, just wait and watch the re-run where Schumi wins instead

[FLB]

Originally posted by Lada Lover
Did you see the blood drain away from MS? He went white as a ghost.

I think that's because Micheal realized that Massa would have won Austria 2002...

[Trogdor]

I'll be the first one to jump for joy if Massa beats MS fair and square and not due to an incident.

I actually WANTED him to get pole. Anything to see MS down on his luck. Last year didn't count: that was the team's fault.

And don't forget -- the better Massa does, the better Villeneuve looks by comparison.

[boostpressure]

Massa has always been very quick. I said he would be a surprise at Ferrari this year. Willi Rampf has praised Massa's speed before and there's no doubt the guy can hustle a car. It also shows that JV's speed last year wasn't bad, as I always pointed out. Beat Zhender, the Sauber team manager, has said that 5 or 6 times Jacques outqualified Massa when fuel loads were counted.

I said Felipe would push MS this year and its already started. Villeneuve predicted it too, Massa's his own man. Good luck to him I say.

However, the season is still very very young, the race should be a corker hopefully.