63 replies to this topic

[blmclman]

What do you think of the "old" (Colnbrook) versus the "new" (Woking) McLaren team? Although the Colnbrook team laid some eggs with the M24 to M30, the design and team philosophy was more or less opposite those of the Woking squad. Dennis' team has become a kind of second-rate Lotus team in that the cars are fragile and apparently insufficiently tested. Lotus was still great because in the older days, no one had perfect reliability but in today's world, fragility, insufficent testing, and unreliability mean failure. Personally, I hope that Mercedes buys out the McLaren team and simply renames it Mercedes because the McLaren name has suffered. I doubt if the team can retain Raikkonen and a team that cannot retain a great driver is surely a team in decline.

[David M. Kane]

The Colnbrook cars were tanks, and I mean that in most positive of terms. They were brutally tough. I can't remember them crashing much or any of their drivers getting hurt. Like the Ron T. Brabhams they were very practical designs.

As to the current team, well Flavio isn't too far off the mark...

[David M. Kane]

Ron's too edgy, a suspension failure in qualifying. Heck, even Kimi's and Juan's driver suits lack lap strapes to save weight. He's looking for an edge in all the wrong places.

[2F-001]

That's a touch harsh on the M24, isn't it?

[MCH]

A touch harsh on the current McLaren team as well, all this negativity. They've been running at the front for years and years on end, more consistently so than either Ferrari, Renault or Williams. This thread smells like a rant rather than an interesting discussion, sorry to say.

[David M. Kane]

I'm sorry, but their engine barely came right barely weeks before the season started and they had a major suspension failure half a lap into qualifying. That's hardly a rant Sir.

[MCH]

Still, they came 3rd from back of the grid and had both cars at the finish (both int the top 5). Nice team performance I'd say (not going to argue that it could have been better).

[Twin Window]

Can we get back on topic, please?

[David M. Kane]

Actually it started to go wrong with the M18 F5000 car which never took off. The M19 was great, then the M20 got run over by Porsche. The M21 was built to train Jody, but under achieved. The M22 was another F5000 produced by Trojan. The M23 is a legend. The M24 is questioned, I don't know what the M25 project was? The M26 was ok, but M27-30 brought the end and the eventual sale to Mr. Dennis using Marlboro money, I believe...

[blmclman]

I started this thread, and the irony is that I am one of the biggest McLaren fans of all time. All teams have their ups and downs but since McLaren linked up with Mercedes, they have had a strange history when it comes to design and development. No one more than me would like to see them on top and I just wish that they could gain both speed and reliabilty and win multiple championships. Most of us would acknowledge however that F1 is not just a business but a dirty FIA business.

[Roger Clark]

I've always thought of the history of McLaren as being in three eras not two, defined by Bruce, Teddy and Ron. Each of them brought a different style and were all admirable in their different ways. We are now moving into a fourth era, defined by the largely anonymous members of the DaimlerChrysler board. It will probably be the last.

[David M. Kane]

I agree with both of you. If anything, they are just trying too hard right now. Kimi is clearly the fastest guy out there. They need to loosen up just a bit and have some fun.

Roger you're right, there are 4 different periods.

The next race is going tell us a lot.

They still miss Bruce.

[FLB]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
The Colnbrook cars were tanks, and I mean that in most positive of terms. They were brutally tough. I can't remember them crashing much or any of their drivers getting hurt. Like the Ron T. Brabhams they were very practical designs.

As to the current team, well Flavio isn't too far off the mark...

William Court was quite critical in his Grand Prix Requiem about the decision to test the M8D without its intended bodywork (they had replaced it with parts from Denny Hulme's) on that fateful day at Goodwood. The investigation into Bruce Mclaren's death concluded that a section of the tail must have lift at 170mph, possibly because of ill-fitting bodywork.

Mike Hailwood's F1 career ended when he destroyed a M23 at the Nürburgring in 1974. The reports said he had lost the car after it had landed ackwardly after a jump. Earlier the same weekend, Hailwood had crashed another M23. The only explanation he had for it was that something in the chassis must have broken.

[David M. Kane]

Two M23s in 2 days has to be some sort of record. What were his injuries from the 2nd crash? I assume serious leg injuries. Unfortunately he was later killed in a road accident along with his son of 8 or 9.

[David M. Kane]

Mike was 41 when he had his road accident. His daughter Michele died instantly. He son David survived. Mike died of injuries 2 days later.

[Wolf]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
I agree with both of you. If anything, they are just trying too hard right now. Kimi is clearly the fastest guy out there. They need to loosen up just a bit and have some fun.

How can you say that, after only one Nico's race- he's quite fast out of the box and has come to grips with racing, overtaking and traffic in his very first F1 race (and that seems to smell of very fine and obviously fast driver*)?;) BTW, I'm not sure that current McL miss Bruce- but we surely do...

* I just hope he'll last and show his talents as he did on few occassions I watched GP2. And, not to veer off the topic too muh- he seems to have 'manners' on the track, unlike most of current crop of F1 drivers (Kimi included). Maybe it was the lower level of competition in GP2 that allowed him that luxury, but I hope he continues in F1 in the same vein.

[FLB]

Originally posted by Wolf

* I just hope he'll last and show his talents as he did on few occassions I watched GP2. And, not to veer off the topic too muh- he seems to have 'manners' on the track, unlike most of current crop of F1 drivers (Kimi included). Maybe it was the lower level of competition in GP2 that allowed him that luxury, but I hope he continues in F1 in the same vein.

I'm going OT as well...

I think it might be a result of his education. Keke Rosberg was as hard a racer as they come, but he was also very clear about what he considered acceptable behaviour on the track. To him, there was such a thing as ethical racing. He would be audacious and bold (I remember him overtaking two cars at Zolder in 1984 in the same move, one on the left and the other on the right), but he would never drive at someone. He was very critical of Ayrton Senna, for instance.

[David M. Kane]

Though Nico set fastest lap I didn't mention him, I was talking about Kimi. Nico is the real deal though. I was very impressed with both of them.

The M25 was the start of John Barnard's relationship with McLaren. It was a stillborn F5000 car.
It is now owned by Abba Kogan of Monaco.

[Mallory Dan]

David, M25 wasn't stillborn. It was raced twice in the 76 UK F5000/G8 series with a Chev V8. Then in 1978 as an F1, re-engined with a DFV, by Villota, alongside his real M23.

As to missing Bruce, surely not. Mclaren have been without Bruce getting on for 40 years, and without Mayer for well over 20. Any links to Mclaren era 1, have been dead for years.

[David M. Kane]

I was idealistically referring to the spirit and teamwork of era #1. I am not a fan of the modern F1 teams, it's strictly personal. I think Ron Dennis is a good manager, not a great people person. Bruce, on the hand, could really rally people. Teddy Mayer, IMO, really struggled without Bruce, again a manager, not a leader. I don't know enough about Tyler Alexander to have an opinion.
I just remember he and Teddy running Formula Juniors for Peter Revson and Timmy Mayer.

However, I must admit I am enjoying seeing Cosworth doing well these days.

Stillborn was a term used, I believe, by Eoin Young.

[kayemod]

What do you think of the "old" (Colnbrook) versus the "new" (Woking) McLaren team? Although the Colnbrook team laid some eggs with the M24 to M30, the design and team philosophy was more or less opposite those of the Woking squad.

I'd say that the main differences between Colnbrook and Woking are the levels of technology and the number of employees involved, that and the passage of about forty years. I'm not sure how many McLaren employees work in the Paragon Centre today, but with SLR production, I'd guess that it could be over a thousand. I'd also guess that the total Colnbrook workforce was usually well under one hundred back in Bruce's day, and he knew them all by name, that makes a huge difference to any organisation.

William Court was quite critical in his Grand Prix Requiem about the decision to test the M8D without its intended bodywork (they had replaced it with parts from Denny Hulme's) on that fateful day at Goodwood. The investigation into Bruce Mclaren's death concluded that a section of the tail must have lift at 170mph, possibly because of ill-fitting bodywork.

I haven't seen the piece quoted, but that's certainly not the recollection I have of that day. Although Bruce was driving the second M8D built, I'm pretty sure that only a single set of bodywork had been delivered at that stage. Subsequent bodies would have been exactly the same in every way, no differences from one set to another other than the painted-on numbers. All metal fixings etc were bonded in the mould and couldn't have varied, and each part was jig-trimmed to make them interchangeable should the need arise. One of the mechanics present at Goodwood didn't fit a pip-pin correctly to secure one front corner of the rear body, or left it out altogether after making some adjustment, but the bodywork fitted perfectly, it just wasn't properly restrained. That's what the investigation uncovered at the time, and I doubt if anything that contradicts it has been uncovered since. McLarens were always among the safest cars in those days, Bruce never took chances in the way that Chapman did, though that was because of the ACBC 'simplify & add lightness' ethic. I'm certain that Colin never sent any of his drivers out in a car he believed to be structurally weak or dangerous in any other way, though sadly history has proved that Lotus racing cars were often less robust than much of the opposition.

PS

Since posting the above, the sad memories it brought back prompted me to do a TNF search on the subject, but I couldn't find anything relevant. Surely an event of this magnitude must have been discussed before, can anyone help?

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by David M. Kane

What were his injuries from the 2nd crash? I assume serious leg injuries.

Unfortunately, yes. Not even a robust M23 could offer him enough protection from this...

Originally posted by Mallory Dan

M25 wasn't stillborn. It was raced twice in the 76 UK F5000/G8 series with a Chev V8.

Bob Evans, Brands Hatch, 1976...



The last contemporary McLaren single-seater to be raced in 'orange'?

[MCS]

Originally posted by Twin Window
The last contemporary McLaren single-seater to be raced in 'orange'?

Almost certainly, but Hepworth orange, alas!

(And, yes, I know you know).

[David M. Kane]

I think it's a very nice Orange, I don't "get" this new Chrome bit. I was genuinely excited to see the pre-season Orange scheme, they even were running it on the AMG cars in Germany. Alas, it was all a marketing ploy gone amuck...

I think the reason the M25 didn't catch on is simply because the Lola T-332 was so right nobody was going to risk a change to something that wasn't wastely superior given Lola's trackside service in the UK and the USA.

[MCS]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
I think the reason the M25 didn't catch on is simply because the Lola T-332 was so right nobody was going to risk a change to something that wasn't wastely superior given Lola's trackside service in the UK and the USA.

Bit more complex than that.

"...the car was tested in November and then sold to Carlos Avallone in February 1974; impounded and sat out 1974 under lock and key..."

fromhttp://forums.autosp...000 McLaren M25

[Penword]

According to Autosport at the time, Emilio de Villota drove an M25 Cosworth in the Aurora F1 round at Donington in May of 1978. I don't know if that was a one-off or not.

Also, and I'm not at all sure about this, but I thought Hailwood's practice crash in the Yardley M23 at the Nurburgring was caused by a broken wheel.

[David M. Kane]

MSC:

I now see, particularly as it relates to Hepworth Orange. What a shame the car never real got it's day in the sun in the day.

Sorry for being so simplistic, at one time I even thought Agent Orange was a good idea...

We don't get much news down here on the farm...

[kayemod]

Not really Colnbrook v Woking, as if there could be any comparison, how could it ever be possible to compare 1970 with 2006, but any more contributions on Bruce's fatal crash? After I posted earlier, the sad memories it brought back prompted me to do a TNF search on the subject, but I couldn't find anything relevant. Surely an event of this magnitude must have been discussed before, can anyone help?

[2F-001]

Whereabouts did Mike Hailwood's M23 "off" occur? Exit of Eschbach?

[blmclman]

The definitive account of Bruce's accident is given in a very, very fine book written by McLaren insider George Begg titled "Bruce McLaren Racing Car Constructor." Unlike what many believe, the accident was NOT caused by a loose body fitting. In terms of testing, Bruce ALWAYS tested the CanAm cars without bodywork to look at the suspension behavior etc. Any criticism of this method is just bullshit coming from someone who does not understand the necessities of testing in the 1960s/early 1970s when there was very little in the way of telemetry. Had Bruce not tested this way, it is concievable that the cars would not have been as successful. Bruce's willingness to put his life on the line to develop a better car backs up his "measurement of life by achievement" philosophy. The fatal accident was caused by underestimation of the downforce achieved by the wing. The wing was set at full downforce mode to see how much could be generated. The width of the M8D and the length of its wing had been increased and the force generated by the wing literally twisted the body off the car at a crucial point on the circuit. The wing did not have ANY supporting struts underneath so the body took the full loading of the wing. By the Mosport CanAm in June of 1970, two struts appeared under the wing and I know Denny had extra pullpins installed on the leading edge of the rear body piece as it fastened down into the cockpit. So, the wing loading was partially taken off the body and the body was further secured by the pullpins. It is good that many should know this because the crew had this panic attack of "what did I do wrong?" The mistake was made in the design, and it was inevitable that an accident would occur. Perhaps if Bruce had gone off in a different part of the circuit, everyone would have had a laugh as had happened before when there were a few "hairy" Bruce testing accidents at Goodwood.

[kayemod]

You can believe whatever you want to blmclman, but I'll stick with the official Coroner's Report into Bruce's untimely death, which concluded that the crash was caused by the failure of an incorrectly fitted bodywork fastener that fell out and onto the track, allowing air to get under the rear body section, and lifting it off the car.

I normally make it a rule not to respond to anything including the word 'bullshit' but I'll make an exception in this case, as your last post is seriously misleading. You've clearly never seen the rear body section of a Can Am racer like the McLaren M8, they're great big floppy mouldings that no-one in their right minds would dream of trying to use as anything much more than an aerodynamic covering, certainly not as an important part of the car's load bearing structure. Bruce McLaren was a clever man, and a brilliant intuitive engineer. His 1969 M8B had a large wing mounted directly onto the rear uprights, it wasn't connected to the bodywork in any way, and after a year's experience of racing and winning all 11 races in the series with this car, Bruce was well aware of the kind of forces a wing of this size could generate. When the 1970 CanAm rules prohibited suspension-mounted wings, Bruce came up with the M8D's wing, which was mounted on fins that extended from the rear body sides. These fins were an integral part of the GRP moulding, but bonded inside each one was a hefty machined duralumin plate that went from the rearmost wing mounting point to extend as far forward as the rear wheel cut-outs. Under the body there was a fabricated structure mounted on the rear crossmember, and it was through this and the monocoque that aerodynamic load was applied to the rear suspension, and most emphatically not to the rear body as a whole. Certainly it’s true that the supporting struts added later were an important additional safety factor, but to describe the crash as ‘inevitable’ or the original design as an accident waiting to happen is disrespectful to Bruce’s memory. However you want to dress it up, Bruce died because someone failed to replace a pip-pin correctly, it’s as simple as that.

[Maldwyn]

Originally posted by blmclman
What do you think of the "old" (Colnbrook) versus the "new" (Woking) McLaren team?

I remember happy schooldays living in the Colnbrook area when I headed to the McLaren premises in the hope of getting a couple of Marlboro stickers! Me and a friend knocked on the door and were let in (by I don't remember who) and were allowed to wander around the workshop where Hunt and Mass's M23's were being worked on. No one told us "don't touch that" or "don't look in there" and we were left alone to wonder at these F1 cars we had largely only seen in photos before. When we'd seen enough and had been given our stickers off we went, very happy!

Can't quite imagine my nephew being able to do the same at the McLaren Technology Centre!

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Maldwyn

I remember happy schooldays living in the Colnbrook area when I headed to the McLaren premises in the hope of getting a couple of Marlboro stickers! Me and a friend knocked on the door and were let in (by I don't remember who) and were allowed to wander around the workshop where Hunt and Mass's M23's were being worked on. No one told us "don't touch that" or "don't look in there" and we were left alone to wonder at these F1 cars we had largely only seen in photos before. When we'd seen enough and had been given our stickers off we went, very happy!

Can't quite imagine my nephew being able to do the same at the McLaren Technology Centre!

Lovely memories Maldwyn, that's more or less how I remember the place too, I'd seen quite a few factories and I'd never seen anything as clean as the McLaren place. In the 70s & 80s I visited quite a lot of other racing shops, and most of them were like that. The only real exception I encountered were Lotus at Hethel & later Ketteringham Hall, who were very secretive. I was a Lotus employee at the time, and even with a works pass I had problems getting into those places occasionally, even when I was there on official Lotus business.

[nikhil]

Personal recollections of Colnbrook

I had the good fortune to work at McLarens for a couple of years starting the year after Hunt won the championship when Teddy Mayer was still at the helm and working on M23, M24 and M26 and a few Formula Fords built in house in our spare time!

There were a lot of good, experienced and passionate 'real' motor racing people, many remaining from the Bruce era. The place was a great training ground for budding engineers as you got to do just about everything except play with the DFV's.

At that time I guess there were no more than 40 people in total and we went to G/Prixs with 12 people - two mechanics on each of three cars, a truckie and tyre / signwriter and four management and design people.

By the time the M28 came along it was evident that they had lost their way and seriously on the wane.

I always felt I had misssed the best years of the real McLaren era where Bruce was held in such high regard as both a leader and engineer.

I couldn't imagine working under the RD regime and had fortunately moved on before their arrival

Nikhil

[David M. Kane]

NIKHIL:

Formula Fords? What was that all about? The M27 was a replacement for the M26, why did not see the light of day?

Thanks!

[kayemod]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
NIKHIL:

Formula Fords? What was that all about? The M27 was a replacement for the M26, why did not see the light of day?

Thanks!

Just two words, 'Ground Effect'. The M27 was planned as an M26 replacement, but I don't think it ever left the drawing board. What did leave the drawing board unfortunately for McLaren, was the disastrous M28, which seemed to be based on a total misunderstanding of the whole ground effect concept.

[nikhil]

The M26 replacement [the Lotus copy] was complete disaster. The first attempt at using
honeycomb in construction of the tub. This car was raced. I may have been incorrect in referring to
M27... s/be M28. I'm sure Watson & Tambay wish they had never laid eyes on it.

Dave Ryan had a Merlyn FF he was rebuilding, then Don Halliday designed and built a very
advanced FF for its time with very shallow chassis and full rocker suspension all round, an
evolution of a very successful Formula Vee he used to win the NZ Championship.

I bought some Crossle 32F parts from Bert Ray and built the rest of the car, in a lock up garage in
Egham with just a single light globe in the ceiling and none too warm I recall ... enthusiasm!

Don Halliday drove this car at one meeting at Donington and then we went straight to the Formula Ford Festival at Brands and qualified for the final. I think at that time he was the first Nzer to achieve this.

All of this sort of follows a well trodden path that happened with McLaren employees building cars of their own... a creative bunch!

Couldn't imagine doing that down at Woking in the tech centre!

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by kayemod

What did leave the drawing board unfortunately for McLaren, was the disastrous M28, which seemed to be based on a total misunderstanding of the whole ground effect concept.

It's almost a relief that Mad Ronald wasn't lumbered with that complete dog...

[nikhil]

It wasn't only the aerodynamics there were misunderstood.
The basic engineering of the tub design just seem to contradict all the good engineering principals
that McLaren and Gordon Coppuck had applied to such great effect in producing some fantastic cars in the past

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by David M. Kane

I don't "get" this new Chrome bit.

Interesting to note that even those on Racing Comments have failed to pick up on the fact that McLaren had changed their livery before the cars arrived in Bahrain; it's more like a 'polished aluminium' [in most places] now, as opposed to the 'chrome' effect as originally seen at the launch...

Originally posted by Maldwyn

I remember happy schooldays living in the Colnbrook area when I headed to the McLaren premises in the hope of getting a couple of Marlboro stickers! Me and a friend knocked on the door and were let in (by I don't remember who) and were allowed to wander around the workshop where Hunt and Mass's M23's were being worked on. No one told us "don't touch that" or "don't look in there" and we were left alone to wonder at these F1 cars we had largely only seen in photos before. When we'd seen enough and had been given our stickers off we went, very happy!

Great story!

[nikhil]

McLaren M28 - Patrick Tambay

[nikhil]

Colnbrook workshops

[Gary C]

what's that on the trailer in the first thumbnail??

[nikhil]

Dave Ryan - McLaren Chief mechanic tinkering with his self modified Merlyn F/Ford

[Twin Window]

Dave's still there, isn't he? Nice bloke.

Great pics, Nik!

[nikhil]

Yes, I believe so.

He has been at this for a very long time

He and his brother Mike started out as Speedcar drivers [aka midgets] at Western Springs
Speedway in Auckland, early '70s.

[David M. Kane]

Nikhil:

I remember a conversation I had a few years ago with Marc Bahner. He was the designated US tub repair guy for March and Ralt. He hated honeycomb, said it was a toatal pain to work with. Could part of the M28 tub problems been due to a lack of experience with this material?

[Maldwyn]

Originally posted by nikhil
Colnbrook workshops

Thanks for the photos nikhil They bring an old memory very vividly back to life

[nikhil]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Nikhil:

I remember a conversation I had a few years ago with Marc Bahner. He was the designated US tub repair guy for March and Ralt. He hated honeycomb, said it was a toatal pain to work with. Could part of the M28 tub problems been due to a lack of experience with this material?

That is a fair appraisal of the situation as I recall it!

No expertise with the material... honeycomb sandwich in flat sheets.... assembled in a box like structure with bonded in cast alloy load bearing points - engine, suspension mounts etc.

Every time you wanted to mount or fasten something to the chassis an insert had to be bonded into the sandwich

All very in practical... mostly done 'on the wing'

I have no recollection of any testing of the tub to ascertain its torsional stiffness etc
All the characteristics of a weetbix carton

I recall Gary Anderson describing what happen the first time it was rolled out to put in the transporter.... all highly flexible!

I would be surprised to learn if any of these cars even exist to day... delamination would be a huge issue

[Nigel Beresford]

McLaren GT is now in the old factory. It's the first building on the left as you face the gatehouse at the entry to the business park.