42 replies to this topic

[Tmeranda]

Can anyone tell me when Gurney started building Formula A of Formula 5000 cars?

[Allen Brown]

He built two for 1968, another couple late that year and then about eight for 1969.

Why, what have you found?

Allen

[macoran]

Quote from Karl Ludvigsen's "Gurney Eagles":
This was a dual purpose machine, conceived for both Formula 5000 and Formula 1, and its baptismal trial was at Riverside in August, 1973. It did not race, however, until June 2, 1974.
etc etc
This Eagle was to mark AAR's return to Formula 5000, which had been known as Formula A
when the company last built cars to suit it in 1968 - 1969.

[macoran]

Again from Ludvigsen's Gurney Eagles.

1968 6 FA/F5000 built
1969 8 FA/F5000 built
1974 4 F5000
1975 1 F5000
1976 1 F5000

in 1968 Dr.Lou Sell and George Wintersteen won 7 SCCA road races with FA Eagles
in 1969 Tony Adamowicz/John Cannon a dn Sam Posey won 6 SCCA road races with FA Eagles.

[Jerry Entin]

When Dan Gurney brought his Formula 5000 Eagle to Riverside in 1974 he had James Hunt as his driver and James did a great job with the car until he and Vern Shuppan took each other out.

[macoran]

Nice pic of Hunt in Ludvigsen's "Gurney Eagles"
Only his name is spelt SHUNT on the cockpit side

[T54]

There are 3 types of Eagle F5000/ F/A cars.
1/ The 1968 and 1969 cars that are virtually identical except for the high wing mounted on the 1969 car. This car is basically the same as the 1968 Indy car except for flat tub sides. The Indy car had curved side to accomodate larger fuel tankage.

2/ The 1974 car. This looks like a slimmer version of the successful 1972 Indy car. There were 3 "works" cars, two race cars for Elliott Forbes-Robinson and Brett Lunger, run under Winkelman management and sponsored by Jorgensen steel and also by Mister Marty, a fashion outfit. Another was sold to a South American customer and painted in red with yellow and green trim.

3/ The 1974 cars being too heavy and not competitive enough agaisnt the Lolas, a new slim car was designed and built and was driven more successfully by Hunt, then Schuppan who finished 2nd at the first Long Beach GP with it.

4/ Gary Wheeler designed another very complex car that was never finished. It had a blunt wide nose and tapered tub with a zillion possible adjustments. I am not sure if this is still in the attic at AAR or was scrapped. I do have a small color picture of the "finished" car somewhere.

Most of these cars still exist. Dan Davis had one a few years back with a DFV on it, another became a Can-Am center seat car, and the third is..???

The (S)Hunt car is now in the hands of Tom Malloy.

There are a few 1968 F/A around too.

[marinmcgreevy]

The third early 74 car, the ones with the inboard front suspension and brakes, was crashed at Laguna Seca in 1975 by Bob Allen. Allen designed and built a two seat sports racer tub to mate the front and rear Eagle subframes. This car became known as the Eagle SSE1. He raced a few times in the pro CanAm (single seat) but mostly raced in California regional SCCA ASR. He did come in second to Jerry Hansen at the runoffs in 1981 and 1982.

Here is a photo of the spare front upright to that car.



And a some photos showing the car at the runoffs , the two upper right images.(a scan of a website I can no longer find)



And a photo showing the rear suspension of the car:

[Frank S]

Here's one in a private Southern California collection, 2001 or so.



If I recall correctly, the pearlescent Testa Rosa was a "Zero Miles" car.

[Allen Brown]

Hi Frank

Is that 1968 car a Formula A or an Indy car? It's in Gurney #48 colours which would be wrong for a Formula A (but I can see an owner being tempted to use those colours for a display car).

Allen

[macoran]

I can't even place what looks to be like a coolant pipe running alongside the
cockpit surround.
On top of that the nose looks unlike the earliest Eagles, its as if there are some
"ribs" running along the sides of the nosecone.

The only Eagle FA/F5000 I can find with nr "48" on it is the light blue Jorgensen steel
Eagle 755 Vern Schuppan drove.

Ludvigsen's "Gurney Eagles" as well as "Roar in the City" show some pics.

[macoran]

Frank....you mean the Lamborghini Countach type thing in the background ?

[Frank S]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Hi Frank

Is that 1968 car a Formula A or an Indy car? It's in Gurney #48 colours which would be wrong for a Formula A (but I can see an owner being tempted to use those colours for a display car).

Allen

I suspect it's an Indy car; my impression was the owner didn't do alterations. Back to the eye-glass shop.

Originally posted by macoran
Frank....you mean the Lamborghini Countach type thing in the background ?

Yes, that's what it is. Back to the eye-glass shop.


I've misplaced the prints and negatives, as well as my notes, such as they were, from this visit.

--
Frank S

[Allen Brown]

The nose cone and the flared out monocoque look like the 1970 Indy car to me. It was a dog when it first ran but was developed into a very good car. Private owners started running then a year or even two after they first bought them.

Allen

[macoran]

.......... but the engine is surely not a blown Indy thing, It's a normal "motha of a V8" .

[mwphoto]

Originally posted by T54
2/ The 1974 car. This looks like a slimmer version of the successful 1972 Indy car. There were 3 "works" cars, two race cars for Elliott Forbes-Robinson and Brett Lunger, run under Winkelman management and sponsored by Jorgensen steel and also by Mister Marty, a fashion outfit. Another was sold to a South American customer and painted in red with yellow and green trim.

From 74' at Mid-Ohio..Lunger finished second to Brian Redman


and EFR was listed as a non-starter.



I have a few more on my site.

[macoran]

Bee you tee full !!!!!!

I thhought of this because Ludvigsen carries a great shot in his book, but the cockpit surround ?
the coolant pipe ?

Old model with a nose job ?

[T54]

I thought of this because Ludvigsen carries a great shot in his book, but the cockpit surround, the coolant pipe ? Old model with a nose job ?

Hi, which picture are you talking about please? I can't see any showing any kind of coolant pipe...??

The pictures are nice. You can see the "Mister Marty" sponsorship on the front wings. The fellow walking on the right side of the car is Roy Winkelman, while the first car is being pushed by Wayne Leary and "Haff" Haffenden. The second car is pushed by Bobby Boxx. All three were part of the "four musketeers", the main race crew of AAR with Butch Wilson.

T54

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by T54
Hi, which picture are you talking about please? I can't see any showing any kind of coolant pipe...??

I guess he means Frank's museum picture in post 9. Looks like a Eagle 70 but the engine implies it was later converted to F5000. You're our resident Eagle expert. Do you recognise it?

Allen

[Frank S]

Looks like a F5000 Eagle in a couple of these just-came-in-the-mail photos
from Long Beach 1975

36 eBay-find shots from the inaugural

Ninety-nine cents plus three dollars postage

http://tinyurl.com/erkat

eBay seller johnlupo (abmoz atsign mindspring dotsign com) says he will produce more, including
some European F1 from the fifties, if there is interest.

Auctions are still running for two copies, if you hurry.

The ones at the link are "lo-res"; the CD-ROM also contains 1600x1200 versions.

Quite a bit of Tom Pryce, Jackie Oliver UOP Shadow material, among others.

--
Frank ess

[Allen Brown]

I would buy that but he won't ship to the UK.

Allen

[Jerry Entin]

Allen I bid on it for you if I get it I will send it to you.

[Allen Brown]

Hi Jerry

How very kind of you. Thanks very much.

Allen

[Allen Brown]

Frank

There are two F5000 Eagles in the images you posted on Fototime.

Image 7 is the #97 Eagle 74 [02] of Bob Allen, which later became the SSE that Evan now owns.

Images 21, 23 and 35 show the #48 works Eagle 755 [01] of Vern Schuppan.

Another interesting and rare car is in Images 20 and 24, the #45 Lance LSR1 driven that day by George Follmer. Designed by famed chief crew Lance Smith and built by him and his brother, the car was a rather surprising flop.

Also worth a look are Images 27 and 28, the Lola T400 that Brian Redman often practiced but only once raced.

Allen

[macoran]

Originally posted by Frank S
Looks like a F5000 Eagle in a couple of these just-came-in-the-mail photos
from Long Beach 1975

Good pic of the cockpit adjustable front roll bar on the Schuppan Eagle

[Gerr]

Re: Frank's pic in post 9. I'm pretty that car was for sale in San Diego, 1990 ish. It had race number 10 then, not 48. Everthing else shown, is the same.

Reputed to be DG's 1970 Indy 500, 3rd place car. Chassis number AAR 805 (or, in another ad Chassis #65, 5th of 8 built). USAC tag R71-10.

[macoran]

You didn't perchance snap it on a bit of sensitive filmlike material with a machine that goes "click"? ?

[T54]

I guess he means Frank's museum picture in post 9. Looks like a Eagle 70 but the engine implies it was later converted to F5000. You're our resident Eagle expert. Do you recognise it?

I certainly do not claim to be an expert as some are here. I am at best a dabbler...
Ask me about vintage slot cars, tinplate toys or pre-war Dinkies or Tootsies and I am your man!

Sure, I recognize the car. It has nothing to do with a F5000 of course. It was one of the 1970 USAC works cars. I have seen this car many times a few years back, running at VR and VARA events like Palm Springs or Willow. Recently it was run at Victory Lane Indy cars events at Fontana and possibly Michigan.
Problem is, the claim that it was the third-place finisher at the 1970 "500" seems (to me) far fetched: Dan's car had a turbo Offy and was significantly different in many details from this car. I am aware that one of the 3 tubs built in 1970 was set for a Ford pushrod similar to the one that Dan had run in 1968. I believe that it makes more sense that this car would be the "Ford" one, because the conversion from an Offy to a Chevy would involved serious butchering. Then again, anything is possible with a good pair of tin snips!

Outer water piping was a characteristic of those cars, two of them converted in 1971 to better aero and updates, waiting for the car that came after it and became the most significant Indy car of the 1972-1975 period with the McLaren M16 and derivates, the 1972 Eagle.

Below for your enjoyment is my original sketch of the 1974 Eagle F5000, drawn for Autoweek and Road & Track from a description of what it should look like by Roman Slobodynskyj. Turned out that the drawing was not that far off when the actual body was hand-beaten in aluminum by Phil Remington.



Regards,

T54

[macoran]

I'll have to check the Ludvigsen book again.
Sounds a special model so there should be something on it, at least a pic !!!

[macoran]

Originally posted by Frank S
Here's one in a private Southern California collection, 2001 or so.



If I recall correctly, the pearlescent Testa Rosa was a "Zero Miles" car.

Ludvigsen's "Gurney's Eagles" .........definitely Dan"s Turbo Offy 3rd place Indy 1970

I quote : "...........and turned to the turbocharged Drake Offy. He chose this instead of the turbo-Ford V-8 because it was less costly, was likely to need less development, as built very near to their Santa Ana plant and was not distributed by arch-rival A.J.Foyt " unquote.

from another page I quote : "The coolant pipes to and from the radiator wer exposed on the upper side of the body, flanking the cockpit."unquote

The pics show the "ribbed"type of nose cone mentioned previously.

The pic above is the car, Allen must be correct, it must have been converted to a V8 block later in life.

[T54]

Mark, all 3 cars had the coolant pipes and the ribbed nose... that is no revealing detail...
The real story is to see if what is left if any of the Offy motor mounts, and that brings the cars down to two possible candidates. Then, which one of the two is it? Also if the USAC tag is "71", that's the end of THAT story... USAC tagged the chassis once and even if modified later, I am told that the year remains the same on a new tag...
Anything is possible but probably the best to make sure and unless the owner have solid and corroboratede evidence by the works, is to go there with the car and ask Phil Remington if his memory is still good enough, and search factory records as far as chassis number for entry to the 1970 "500".
Dan's car was the ONLY 1970 Eagle that qualified that year, all others were a mix of '67 and '68 with various new body appendages.
Please note that I am not questioning if the car is, or is not, what it claims to be. It has one chance in three to be the correct car, and even if it was not, no big deal because it is an Eagle from a very disappointing year for Dan and the Eagle crew.
But back to the subject, it is not a F5000 and never was. the currently installed Chevy mill was put there for convenience simply because one owner wanted to play.
I believe that Tom Holffelder currently owns the car?

[T54]

OOOps, just to add to this little mystery and because I am old and my memory cells are not so good anymore, I pulled my fairly scarce "Indianapolis 500 Yearbook" ( a special edition covering 1969 through 1972 by Carl Hungness) and guess what? On page 90 is the car driven by Dan taken after qualif. No ribbed nose, because now I remember that those noses came in... 1971 and were used on short tracks. A race picture on page 123 shows the same nose, so no change was made between qualif and the race.
Moving to page 158-159 for the 1971 "500", both 1971 works Eagles (Jim Malloy in a 1970 car updated with huge aero planks on the sides and Bobby's new 1971 chassis) still don't have the ribbed nose. Now to 1972 and again, the only two 1970 Eagles in the field were that of Swede Savage, and it is not the third-place car but a backup car not used in 1970 and mike Hiss, another backup car not used in 1970. NONE of these cars use the ribbed nose.
So deciding that the car is "the third-place car" on that alone would be incorrect. Also the water piping on the 1970 Indy car appears to be quite different from the setup currently on the car, but this could have been changed later. In any case, the nose piece is definitely not the same.
That all I could come up with so far.

[macoran]

Hmmm, interesting.
The pics in Ludvigsen show the coolant pipes as in post 9, but then the
photo is subtitled Gurney's 1970 Indy car.........doesn't mean it raced.

Another pic show the nose of the car with rather huge "noseboards" a la
Matra MS80.......photo is subtitled Dan with the .......drove to third place at Indy in 1970.
photo looks pre-race shot......so it may have raced configured otherwise.

[wildman]

Image 7 is the #97 Eagle 74 [02] of Bob Allen, which later became the SSE that Evan now owns.

Here's a recently unearthed image of Bob Allen's SSE, from an SCCA event at Portland in 1983:

[Allen Brown]

Here's a recently unearthed image of Bob Allen's SSE, from an SCCA event at Portland in 1983:

Excellent! Dan, may I use that on my forthcoming Eagle 74A page?

[wildman]

Excellent! Dan, may I use that on my forthcoming Eagle 74A page?

Of course you may. But thanks for asking just the same.

[Allen Brown]

Of course you may. But thanks for asking just the same.

Thanks Dan.


My Eagle 74A page is now live.

http://www.oldracing....com/eagle/74a/

[Lee Nicolle]

Without wishing to sound stupid what is the difference between F5000 and Formula A? Is it just one is US rules and the other UK and Oz.
For some reason similar cars with 4 barrel carbs is stuck in my brain. I have read old mags advertising chassis suit F5000 or Formula A.

[David McKinney]

One difference (and there might have been others) was that FA allowed racing engines of up to 3 litres as well as 5-litre stock-blockers, while F5000 only allowed 2-litre racing engines as the alternative

The original Tasman Formula was neither FA nor F5000, as it allowed 2.5-litre racing engines, though that was later reduced to 2000cc

[Allen Brown]

Formula A was the original name, dating back to when the SCCA divided their Formule Libre category into Formulae 'A', 'B' and 'C' in 1965. Formula A was for 3-litre racing engines but that didn't attract enough cars so they broadened it in 1968 to include 5-litre stock block engines. That was a immediate success and was adopted in the UK in 1969 under the name Formula 5000. In 1971 or 1972 (can't recall off the top of my head), the US professional series adopted the name Formula 5000 as well.

The SCCA continued to use the term Formula A up to the category's death in 1978 and absorption into ASR. The rules of SCCA FA, 'Pro' US F5000, UK F5000 and Tasman F5000 would have had minor differences but I don't think that was the question (was it?).

[David McKinney]

For some reason similar cars with 4 barrel carbs is stuck in my brain. I have read old mags advertising chassis suit F5000 or Formula A.

Further to my earlier -

I think there was also a difference between countries in that some allowed fuel-injection and others insisted on carbs

[Lee Nicolle]

Formula A was the original name, dating back to when the SCCA divided their Formule Libre category into Formulae 'A', 'B' and 'C' in 1965. Formula A was for 3-litre racing engines but that didn't attract enough cars so they broadened it in 1968 to include 5-litre stock block engines. That was a immediate success and was adopted in the UK in 1969 under the name Formula 5000. In 1971 or 1972 (can't recall off the top of my head), the US professional series adopted the name Formula 5000 as well.

The SCCA continued to use the term Formula A up to the category's death in 1978 and absorption into ASR. The rules of SCCA FA, 'Pro' US F5000, UK F5000 and Tasman F5000 would have had minor differences but I don't think that was the question (was it?).

Really I was after engine specs, chassis and wheel and tyre specs if any besides the above. I forgot about the 3 litre racing engines, I was thinking they were invited to run as well instead of being part and parcel of the category rules

[RA Historian]

Allen has nailed it down rather well. In SCCA Club racing Formula A predated the five liter V-8s, as Allen has stated. SCCA continued with the Formula A name in its club racing level, while the pro version adopted the F-5000 name in the very early 1970s.
Tom