39 replies to this topic

[lustigson]

What does the future hold for Red Bull Racing? Or rather, what does Red Bull Racing hold for the future? Today, the team announced another new signing in Keith Saunt as Head of Operations. He was lured away from Renault and is the umpteenth new name at Red Bull, with Adrian Newey probably being the most impressive. The team appears to be very, very serious about their F1 aspirations.

Beating Ferrari with their own engines
So what could they be gunning for in the future? Winning Grands Prix, that’s for sure, but how? More and more they appear to have the right people in the right places. But running a Ferrari engine will not ultimately give you an edge over every team. At best you win the odd race and finish the others right behind the cars bearing the Prancing Horse. So Red Bull eventually needs exclusive engines to get to the top.

Rumours: eventually sell out to VAG
Red Bull has strong links with the Volkswagen-Audi Group (VAG). They raging bull appears on Audi’s A4 in DTM, Skoda’s Fabia in the WRC, VW’s Touareg in cross-country rallies, et cetera. In fact, the only VAG racing cars Red Bull doesn’t sponsor, are the factory-entered R10s in the Le Mans Series. No wonder there were rumours a while ago about Red Bull building up their team in a number of years, only to sell it to VAG, if successful.

Buy-out of Cosworth viable option
On the other hand it is said that Red Bull might be keen to buy Cosworth Racing outright. Current owners Kevin Kalkhoven and Gerry Forsythe are not engine builders. They only bought Cosworth two years ago to guarantee engine supply to the Champ Car World Series. So what if Red Bull came a-knockin’ and offered a truckload of cash to take Cosworth off their hands?

Get engines first… sell team later
Combining these two rumours sees Red Bull Racing bringing Cosworth into their fold. With it, they have exclusive engines supply for their main team, but for ‘junior team’ Scuderia Toro Rosso as well. With Cosworth power and all the right people in the right places, Red Bull will try to build up the team into a race-winning outfit. And then sell it to the Volkswagen-Audi Group.

Your thoughts?

[kayemod]

Originally posted by lustigson
Beating Ferrari with their own engines
So what could they be gunning for in the future? Winning Grands Prix, that’s for sure, but how? More and more they appear to have the right people in the right places. But running a Ferrari engine will not ultimately give you an edge over every team. At best you win the odd race and finish the others right behind the cars bearing the Prancing Horse. So Red Bull eventually needs exclusive engines to get to the top.

But no-one has ever done that have they? I couldn't figure out why Red Bull would pay Ferrari money for Ferrari engines, when no Ferrari engine ever won a race, or even looked like doing so, unless it was in the back of a Ferrari.

As to the rest of your post, it's interesting and not without some logic, but those Audi/VW rumours never go away do they? I'm not saying it will never happen, but what could the Group gain from F1 involvement? I think that Audi/VW decided a long time ago that an F1 programme would only bring them problems in exchange for vast expense and very little gain. I think we'll see GM in F1 before them, and that's pretty unlikely as well.

[BRG]

You make a good point about Red Bull’s connections to VAG – in addition to those that you list, they are sponsoring the six car SEAT team in the WTCC. I hadn’t realised before how close those links are getting.

But I remain sceptical about VAG taking over RBR and entering F1. VAG just aren’t interested, it seems.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by BRG
You make a good point about Red Bull’s connections to VAG – in addition to those that you list, they are sponsoring the six car SEAT team in the WTCC. I hadn’t realised before how close those links are getting.

But I remain sceptical about VAG taking over RBR and entering F1. VAG just aren’t interested, it seems.

Programmes like WTCC, the DTM and the all others that lustigson mentioned, bring Red Bull and the VW/Audi Group a lot of exposure for relatively little (compared to F1), outlay. Even their non Red Bull sportscar racing doesn't cost a lot by F1 standards, and winning races with a diesel has untold value for them. I can't see Herr Pieschetsreider loosening his purse strings much more than he has done already, F1 fan though he may be.

[giddyup409]

vag is in corporate mess. not as long as there is the battle between piech and pischetsrieder

[skinnylizard]

From what i have seen of DiMati would say his ambitions are probably much grander then selling to VW. i would expect him to want to buy Ferrari racing or something along those lines. then maybe merge the teams or spin off.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by giddyup409
vag is in corporate mess. not as long as there is the battle between piech and pischetsrieder

There are quite a few car makers worldwide who would love to be in as big a corporate mess as VW/Audi.

[vsubravet]

D.M buying Ferrari? Now, that would be something. I don't think the Maranello team would be sold - EVER. Too much history, pride and achievements entwined with that team. And I don't see any reason why they should sell; they have enough money, sponsors at their door-step and an excellent team in place. Oh, and the leadership is top-of-the-class. They don't seem to suffer from any problems in the afore-mentioned areas. So, why sell? And that too to a marketing firm?

Vijay

[Mauseri]

I don't see VAG entering F1. I don't think them just sponsoring other VAG teams is any required link to sell the team to just VAG. Besides it's propable that next year both Red Bull teams are on Ferrari V8 engines.

There have long been some hopes of VAG entering F1, but to me it's no more than wishfull thinking of drivers of VAG roadcars.

[BRG]

Originally posted by vsubravet
D.M buying Ferrari? Now, that would be something. I don't think the Maranello team would be sold - EVER.

It was sold to FIAT. If it were bought out by Dieter, it would actually return it to its original private status, as in the days of Enzo.

Not that I can see it happening, mind you!

[RDM]

Originally posted by kayemod


But no-one has ever done that have they? I couldn't figure out why Red Bull would pay Ferrari money for Ferrari engines, when no Ferrari engine ever won a race, or even looked like doing so, unless it was in the back of a Ferrari.

Didn't a Ferrari-powered Vanwall win the odd race? Granted, it was in the front rather than the back...

[kayemod]

Originally posted by RDM

Didn't a Ferrari-powered Vanwall win the odd race? Granted, it was in the front rather than the back...

Well, um yes, I suppose you're right in a way, but that was back in 1952, and non-championship races at that. I was really talking about proper GPs within the living memory of most on this BB, and Ferrari customer teams with more money than sense like Prost, Sauber and a few others. All Vanwall's 'proper' wins were with the same engine which was essentially four single-cylinder Norton motorbike engines mated to a common crankcase. We should be discussing this on TNF though, we'll be annoying some of the younger F1 fans in this section.

[giddyup409]

Originally posted by kayemod


There are quite a few car makers worldwide who would love to be in as big a corporate mess as VW/Audi.

yes, but not the ones currently involved in f1, right?

[kayemod]

Originally posted by giddyup409
yes, but not the ones currently involved in f1, right?

With the possible exception of Renault/Nissan, right.

[Red ITC]

VAG in F1 does not compute. Imagine how many dealerships in Asia they could open with the money from a 3-4 year F1 budget, Also, they are already competing nicely with BM and Merc without spending billions in F1 - and they own LeMans.

[se7en_24]

There is no such thing as VAG or Volkswagen Audi Group anymore, it is called Volkswagen AG.



;)

[BRG]

Originally posted by kayemod
With the possible exception of Renault/Nissan, right.

Or Daimler-Chrysler.

Or of course, FIAT.

Originally posted by kayemod
We should be discussing this on TNF though, we'll be annoying some of the younger F1 fans in this section.

Too bad, and its about time they learnt a bit of historical perspective anyway - there was life before Schumacher after all.

[lustigson]

Originally posted by BRG
Or of course, FIAT.

Which, strictly speaking, is not in F1 at all.

Before you come after me, it's a bit tongue in cheeck. I know Fiat Group (partly) owned Ferrari SpA, but one usually refers to Fiat Auto as the car manufacturer.

[CWeil]

From what I understand, the Ferrari engines are really only a stop-gap measure. They've been working hard to secure a manufacturer engine deal for both RBR and STR, and have been in talks with 3 companies. 1 is already in F1 but may not be for much longer, 1 was already mentioned, and 1 hasn't been mentioned yet but used to be very strong in F1 (hint: it's German).

[BRG]

Originally posted by CWeil
1 is already in F1 but may not be for much longer, 1 was already mentioned, and 1 hasn't been mentioned yet but used to be very strong in F1 (hint: it's German).

So... that's Renault, Volkswagen, and Porsche then? Slight, slim and no chance respectively IMO.

[F1 RusH]

Originally posted by lustigson


Buy-out of Cosworth viable option
On the other hand it is said that Red Bull might be keen to buy Cosworth Racing outright. Current owners Kevin Kalkhoven and Gerry Forsythe are not engine builders. They only bought Cosworth two years ago to guarantee engine supply to the Champ Car World Series. So what if Red Bull came a-knockin’ and offered a truckload of cash to take Cosworth off their hands?

[/B]

I don`t see that. There is much more going on in American racing that will prevent that. Cosworth is an asset...arguably the biggest on one side of the split.
If it goes, it`s because there is a merger between the IRL and Champ Car.

[lustigson]

Originally posted by BRG
So... that's Renault, Volkswagen, and Porsche then? Slight, slim and no chance respectively IMO.

Couldn't agree more.

By the way, Porsche never was very strong in F1 in the first place...

[kayemod]

Originally posted by lustigson
Couldn't agree more.
By the way, Porsche never was very strong in F1 in the first place...

TAG Porsche V6? One or two WDCs & WCCs there if I remember correctly.

[lustigson]

Originally posted by kayemod
TAG Porsche V6? One or two WDCs & WCCs there if I remember correctly.

TAG was Porsche-built, indeed, but beared no Porsche decalls of any kind, IIRC. So I'll keep from considering it a Porsche, thank you very much...

By the way, CWeil said "... 1 hasn't been mentioned yet but used to be very strong in F1 (hint: it's German)" and I wouldn't call TAG very strong in F1. At least not compared to the Ferrari's, Honda's and Renaults.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by lustigson

TAG was Porsche-built, indeed, but beared no Porsche decalls of any kind, IIRC. So I'll keep from considering it a Porsche, thank you very much...

A rather silly distinction there, TAG money paid for everything so they got their name on the engines, but that didn't make them any less Porsche. Petronas paid for the engines in Saubers up to last year, but that didn't make them any less Ferrari. This has happened increasingly in F1 in recent years, Supertec & Playlife (Renault), Megatron (BMW) etc etc. If Mars started paying for the Williams Cosworths, would you start referring to the engines as Mars bars and try to pretend they weren't really Cosworths any more?

[CWeil]

Originally posted by lustigson

Couldn't agree more.

By the way, Porsche never was very strong in F1 in the first place...

You are correct, "very" was too much, but the TAG Porsche V6's did do well.

Who said it's necessarily Renault?

[Melbourne Park]

When VW ( Audi is part of VW) bought Cosworth Technologies in 1998, they sold the F1 part of the operation to Ford (who recently sold it to Kevin Kalkhoven and Gerald Forsythe when Ford quit F1). VW have also recently sold Cosworth Technologies last year to Mahle. I doubt VW would buy the F1 building Cosworth: they've had the opportunity to buy it before, and kept everything but ... I suspect their mission now is to stick to their knitting.

[Pilla]

I thought VAG bought both Cosworth operations but Ford thought that they were getting too good a deal and stepped in at the last minute.

[repcobrabham]

maybe RB will look at how well williams are doing and become cosworth customers for at least the two years leading up to the new agreement. three customers (RB & TR as separate physical entities) instead of one may fund sufficient updates to keep the cossies competitive all year.

[Clement]

VW will come to F1 but only as a motorist.
They will supply Red Bull.

[lustigson]

Originally posted by Clement
VW will come to F1 but only as a motorist. They will supply Red Bull.

Great! Now we know for sure!

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by Pilla
I thought VAG bought both Cosworth operations but Ford thought that they were getting too good a deal and stepped in at the last minute.

Its too long ago ... but I thought Audi owned it for a very short time. I think they had arranged Ford as part of the whole deal. No doubt that if Audi had wanted the F1 division, they would have got it.

[Wouter]

Originally posted by CWeil


You are correct, "very" was too much, but the TAG Porsche V6's did do well.

Who said it's necessarily Renault?

No, Porsche was very succesfull. 3 WDC's and 2 WCC's, complete domination in 1984 (12 wins) included. In all, Porsche (never mind the TAG sticker) won 25GP's from 1984 till 1987.

They wouldn't really count as a manufacturer deal though, at least not more than the Cosworth/Williams deal does. Porsche doesn't have the funds to pay for such an undertaking (their attempted return with Arrows/Footwork was a big flop), Red Bull would have to pay themselves or find an engine sponsor as Dennis did in the early 80s.

[Calorus]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park


Its too long ago ... but I thought Audi owned it for a very short time. I think they had arranged Ford as part of the whole deal. No doubt that if Audi had wanted the F1 division, they would have got it.

Audi bought power train - now Mahle.

And if true, they're likely saying that they want not to be associated until they're on the brink of victory. It seems very likely. I can't find any major championship featuring VAG without at least one Red Bull FACTORY entry.

[Calorus]

The corporate line...

I think this bodes rather well. But ideally the engine freeze will cease to be spoken about.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by Calorus
The corporate line...

I think this bodes rather well. But ideally the engine freeze will cease to be spoken about.

If a non development engine happens, there's a strong case for the auto companies leaving F1 though. Honda, Toyota etc have been strong on wanting engine development to continue to be a part of F1, as it always has been.

[lustigson]

Dieter Rencken thinks VW is finally on it's way to F1: "... VW, an associate sponsor of both Red Bull teams and supplier of the bulk of the company's vehicle fleet worldwide, is said to investigating purchasing the Northampton-based engine company."

Add this to the news that VW had a quarterly turn-over of 26.6 billion euros with 859 million euros profit, which is over half a billion more than the same quarter last year. Looks like enough for a decent F1 budget. The stock has risen 7.5 percent, too.

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by kayemod


But no-one has ever done that have they? I couldn't figure out why Red Bull would pay Ferrari money for Ferrari engines, when no Ferrari engine ever won a race, or even looked like doing so, unless it was in the back of a Ferrari.

Not true I am pretty sure that many races were won with the a ferrari engine in the font of a Ferrari as well.

[carbonfibre]

And besides that was there ever a team with Ferrari engine's that was better then Ferrari themselfs? No?

So no suprise that has never happend..

[lustigson]

Originally posted by Topweasel
... many races were won with the a ferrari engine in the font of a Ferrari as well.

D'oh!