50 replies to this topic

[Tenmantaylor]

After the opening GP this year, Rubens was complaining how difficult to drive the Honda was compared to the Ferrari. I seem to remember him saying he was used to standing on the brakes going into corners and flooring it going out of corners and didnt have to worry about much else and how difficult the Honda was in comparison- like he was always having to say sorry.

Now after Hondas disastrous Aussie GP it seems Buttons driving style may be the reason for more than just Rubens' woes. He drives very smoothly and rarely seems to attack the wheel or get out of shape which could be a result of how he likes to drive the car. Either way driving like this obviously would contribute to taking longer to get up to tyre temperature.

When alonso was warming the tyres before the first restart his car was flicking from lock to lock in a constant controlled slide. Amazing to watch but Button wasnt doing anything it seemed. He said after the race he couldnt because he thought he'd just throw it off the road like Fisi and montoya did. Made him look pretty stupid either way.

Were we just witnessing amazing car control from Alonso or does he hace the TC systems set up to allow him to do it better than anyone else? Does Renaults further back torquier engine make this easier? Every Honda engine iv'e experienced wether driving or in a game is usually very spiky around peak power.

I found this the most interesting issue from the Aussie GP (after all the crashing and overtaking )

[Emperor Palpatine]

Car control!

Same goes for Kimi!

Absolutely spot on observation and I thought exactly the same thing.

BTW - Does anybody else though also have the thought that if it had been Senna, ShoeMaker or even Alonso that was being attacked at the restart instead of sweet Jense that they would have abruptly turned right or jumped on the brakes before they crossed the start line?

[baddog]

Quote

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
I seem to remember him saying he was used to standing on the brakes going into corners and flooring it going out of corners and didnt have to worry about much else

He didnt say anything like that.. he just said it was completely different and extremely hard for him to get used to.

Shaun

[330R]

http://www.rubensbar..._rubens.php?l=2

Quote

I can’t step on the brake when I am in the curve and when I see that there is a time loss in the middle of the curve, I want to step on the gas all the way and the traction control can’t keep up with it.

[baddog]

Yep sounds like nothing at all similiar to "he was used to standing on the brakes going into corners and flooring it going out of corners and didnt have to worry about much else"

[330R]

"stepping on the gas all the way" doesn't sound like flooring it?

[baddog]

Sure he wants to use full throttle in a circumstance the honda wont do it, but its the "Didnt have to worry about much else" thats made up, it implies the Ferrari was sooo simple to drive and the honda is sooo hard. He doesnt say that at all.

Shaun

[330R]

Quote

Originally posted by baddog
Sure he wants to use full throttle in a circumstance the honda wont do it, but its the "Didnt have to worry about much else" thats made up, it implies the Ferrari was sooo simple to drive and the honda is sooo hard. He doesnt say that at all.

Shaun

I'm not trying to speak for Tenmantaylor but I think he means where Rubens was talking the Honda's traction control not letting him, or not catching up to his throttle input.. would that be compared to the Ferrari system?

Someone in another thread, who was at Melbourne last weekend said he noticed how the Renaults and Hondas had a lack of traction control that he could hear. Just saying it sounds like the Honda's tc is less involved than Ferrari's.. maybe.

[HoldenRT]

Good topic tenmantaylor.

On this one thing though.

Quote

or does he hace the TC systems set up to allow him to do it better than anyone else?

TC would have little to do with it, since it has to be turned off in order to do the slides/burnouts that warm the rear tyres up. Which is why it's so easy to spin off like Fisi and JPM did.

Imo its purely down to driver skill/car control with no backup (TC) if they push the sliding too far. Going back from last season even, during warmup laps Alonso seemed to be really good at it.

Obviously they are all the worlds best drivers so you would expect them all to be good at it, but with the track lacking so much grip and with the cooler conditions there seemed to be big differences in which drivers could be aggressive or not.

I don't think it was car or electronics/TC related though. We saw Fisi and JPM spin but we didn't see Alonso or Kimi spin did we.

About Rubens, more then likely I'd say that it's just that Honda rely less on TC and more from driver foot control. For Honda, maybe it is more effecient this way or maybe it is the way Jenson has liked it over the last few years. Rubens just needs to adjust as he is used to putting his foot down as soon as possible and letting the software filter out the excessive wheel spin. It takes time to break old habits.

[Timstr11]

Quote

Originally posted by HoldenRT

About Rubens, more then likely I'd say that it's just that Honda rely less on TC and more from driver foot control. For Honda, maybe it is more effecient this way or maybe it is the way Jenson has liked it over the last few years. Rubens just needs to adjust as he is used to putting his foot down as soon as possible and letting the software filter out the excessive wheel spin. It takes time to break old habits.

Exactly my conclusion. When I read this a whil ago, I was surprised nobody strated a thread about it. It seems Renault and certainly Ferrari rely heavier on their TC software.
We can conlude two things from this:

1/ Honda's TC software is not as advanced as Ferraris and probably Renault (good traction out of corners).

2/ Button has exceptional driving skills as he has more feel for the throttle (rather then flooring it and letting the software do the job);)

[Timstr11]

Quote

Originally posted by HoldenRT
About Rubens, more then likely I'd say that it's just that Honda rely less on TC and more from driver foot control. For Honda, maybe it is more effecient this way or maybe it is the way Jenson has liked it over the last few years. Rubens just needs to adjust as he is used to putting his foot down as soon as possible and letting the software filter out the excessive wheel spin. It takes time to break old habits.

Although I just remebered that Jenson did sya they had issues with their TC which would be fully reolved by Imola. The Vallelunga test was also mainly about testing "control systems". So they might move in the direction of more TC.

[Tenmantaylor]

Quote

Originally posted by Timstr11
2/ Button has exceptional driving skills as he has more feel for the throttle (rather then flooring it and letting the software do the job);)

Hes definitely a natural driving talent but why couldnt he warm his tyres when infront of alonso to give himself a chance of a podium? His timing at the restart was poor too. He should have made sure alonso was being held up on the apex as not to allow him a run out of the corner.

I think that sums him up. Great driver, poor racer.

All said and done I do want him to do well as the best current British driver. I think Gary Paffett is going to be better though for McLaren come 07/08.

[rbdwin]

Quote

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor


Hes definitely a natural driving talent but why couldnt he warm his tyres when infront of alonso to give himself a chance of a podium? His timing at the restart was poor too. He should have made sure alonso was being held up on the apex as not to allow him a run out of the corner.

I think that sums him up. Great driver, poor racer.

All said and done I do want him to do well as the best current British driver. I think Gary Paffett is going to be better though for McLaren come 07/08.

Unless you can play musical cars and have the drivers switch cars you're making conclusions without sufficient evidence. As has been said many times, the only competitor a driver must beat is his teammate.

As for not warming-up his tyres sufficiently, Mr. Car Control, the Master of Cold Tyres, JPM went spinning multiple times while warming up his tyres. Button says given the state of his tyres he had to be careful. In the circumstances, sitting at my comfy keyboard I would feel presumptious and silly saying he didn't know best.

By the way, is this the same Gary Paffett whom Button consistently beat (along with everybody else) when they raced against each other in in the junior formulas in England? The next English driver for McLaren will be Lewis Hamilton, not Paffett.

[Corners]

Contrary to popular belief here Jenson does rely heavily on TC just like the rest of the drivers, think back to Hockenheim 2003 he lost his TC and was miles and miles behind in no time. He said it was good fun but slow. I think its more a case of not having the TC on a very high setting.

[ivanalesi]

Watch a whole warm up lap onboard with Alonso or anyone, btw he's doing this for years... It's a TC setting. The revs are killed whenever he's turning the wheel and rev up when it's about straight.

[330R]

The maneuvers that Fred was doing to put heat into the tires - the wiggling under power, not only spinning up the rears, but working the fronts - is something I recall Michael doing often on formation laps and under safety car periods.

Those two guys stand out in my head most with this technique.

Just asking, but didn't Renault's current software guru used to work at Ferrari? I wonder if it is some sort of TC setting that allows for a bunch of power to come on, but under control (not lighting up the rears), while the driver slides the car around. Poor explanation.

[Majarvis]

Quote

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
Every Honda engine iv'e experienced wether driving or in a game is usually very spiky around peak power.

Okay... I'm going to pretend you didn't just compare a Formula One engine's driving characteristics to a road car, or a video game...

I must be seeing things...

[330R]

Quote

Originally posted by Majarvis

Okay... I'm going to pretend you didn't just compare a Formula One engine's driving characteristics to a road car, or a video game...

I must be seeing things...

http://img402.images...1/vtecyo9hq.jpg

[HSJ]

Quote

Originally posted by ivanalesi
Watch a whole warm up lap onboard with Alonso or anyone, btw he's doing this for years... It's a TC setting. The revs are killed whenever he's turning the wheel and rev up when it's about straight.

I think Alonso even said so himself, it is about how the Renault car behaves (TC mainly). What others do to warm up their tyres would not work on the Renault, that is what I understood from FA's comments, as Renault's TC would be too effective and prevent the tyres from sliding and heating up.

[HSJ]

Quote

Originally posted by 330R

Just asking, but didn't Renault's current software guru used to work at Ferrari?

IIRC he did. (For the life of me I can't remember the guy's name. Irritating to forget names like I often do.) Ferrari have also been very keen on hiring Renault's electronics/TC/traction techies in recent years. They've not been successful, though.

[boyRacer]

Quote

Originally posted by 330R


http://img402.images...1/vtecyo9hq.jpg

Hahahahahha I never thought I'd find that picture posted in this forum of all places.

[Dalton007]

JB actually said that he couldn't warm his tyres aggressively because he had OVERSTEER! In the past, he hasn't had problems with the SC.

[Oho]

Quote

Originally posted by Corners
Contrary to popular belief here Jenson does rely heavily on TC just like the rest of the drivers, think back to Hockenheim 2003 he lost his TC and was miles and miles behind in no time. He said it was good fun but slow. I think its more a case of not having the TC on a very high setting.

The dependence on TC is no doubt to a significant degree dependent on the availability of TC. That is the ability to use it I belive significantly influences pretty much all aspects of the car setup and perhaps even design reducing the dependence on driver feel and friendliness in power delivery, (oh gee borderlining Ronspeak...)

[Gemini]

Quote

Originally posted by HSJ


(For the life of me I can't remember the guy's name. Irritating to forget names like I often do.)

Tad Czapski

[DCult]

Quote

Originally posted by baddog
Sure he wants to use full throttle in a circumstance the honda wont do it, but its the "Didnt have to worry about much else" thats made up, it implies the Ferrari was sooo simple to drive and the honda is sooo hard. He doesnt say that at all.

Shaun

Take it easy, Shaun... Nobody is saying Michael's ;) Ferrari has been easy to drive these years.
If you have performance deficit, you tend to overdrive. If you don't, your mistakes are fewer and somewhat masked. Everything that's overdriven may lead to a crash, as witnessed in the Australian GP.

[4MEN]

Quote

Originally posted by HSJ


I think Alonso even said so himself, it is about how the Renault car behaves (TC mainly). What others do to warm up their tyres would not work on the Renault, that is what I understood from FA's comments, as Renault's TC would be too effective and prevent the tyres from sliding and heating up.

I haven't seen Fisichella doing it.

[Al.]

Quote

Originally posted by Emperor Palpatine
...........BTW - Does anybody else though also have the thought that if it had been Senna, ShoeMaker or even Alonso that was being attacked at the restart instead of sweet Jense that they would have abruptly turned right or jumped on the brakes before they crossed the start line?

Swerved? (I'm not sure).

Braked? Wouldn't have been necessary.

The gaps show Jenson only 0.029ses ahead, I don't know how fast they were going by the line but a slight lift to let put Alonso ahead, or lift earlier then nail it when Alonso lifted to check himself.

If there isn't a line in the Sporting Regs saying you can't then Senna or Schui would have done it, particularly if you belived that keeping the Renault back was your only shot at victory. That's why they have 10 WDC's between them.

If it was me I'd have stopped acelerating at the exit of the corner, as soon as I'd have known I was offline and slow, then nailed it as soon as Alonso slowed to prevent himself from driving passed. Just enough to draw back ahead and cover the inside.

Ethical? (who knows) Necessary with a Button/Honda combo? (probably!)

[Gaston]

http://www.youtube.c...4&search=alonso

http://www.youtube.c...g&search=alonso

[Tenmantaylor]

Want suggesting Jensons car is eqipped with VTEC technology there! Cool pic hehe just that different manufacturers often have different approaches to power curves. Renault obviously have more torque etc

Cheers for clips Gaston

After watchin a couple of times im pretty much convinced alonso is using a tc setting to help. He seems to slow down before doing the technique and can only do it for about 1-2 seconds at a time from low speed. After this time the actual car speed is catching up with the wheelspeed and he needs to start the process again. However this would probably be the case without TC i admit.

Love to be proven wrong from symonds et all!

[prty]

Well it reminds me of Schumacher's celebration for the title in France 02 I think it was, the car behaves more or less the same. No TC those days so you probably don't need TC to do that, althought Alonso's slides are at lower speeds.

[sweetreid]

Quote

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor After watchin a couple of times im pretty much convinced alonso is using a tc setting to help. He seems to slow down before doing the technique and can only do it for about 1-2 seconds at a time from low speed. After this time the actual car speed is catching up with the wheelspeed and he needs to start the process again. However this would probably be the case without TC i admit. [/B]

So how does this lead you to believe he's using TC here at all? He slows down because to get his car waggling like that he needs the rear tires to spin so the rears are in sliding friction. He can control it with the fronts which are still in static friction. When he starts going too fast (ie after 1-2 seconds) there is too little grip in the sliding rears to keep the car from going around, so he slows down. JPM didn't ;)

If both rear tires are in sliding friction then TC wouldn't be doing anything.

[Oho]

Quote

Originally posted by prty
Well it reminds me of Schumacher's celebration for the title in France 02 I think it was, the car behaves more or less the same. No TC those days so you probably don't need TC to do that, althought Alonso's slides are at lower speeds.

In 02 there was TC. TC was reintroduced at Barcelona 01.

[Ross Stonefeld]

*newsflash*

TC can be turned off

[prty]

Quote

Originally posted by Oho


In 02 there was TC. TC was reintroduced at Barcelona 01.

My bad, I was associating the one lap qualifying with the TC.

[Pep]

Quote

Originally posted by Gaston
http://www.youtube.c...4&search=alonso

http://www.youtube.c...g&search=alonso

Thanks,

You sometimes think that maybe Alonso's risking a little with those violent moves. When the camera is very close he's turning the wheel 180º. But very nice to see

[J2NH]

Quote

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
After the opening GP this year, Rubens was complaining how difficult to drive the Honda was compared to the Ferrari.

Rubens was a right foot breaker the last couple of years at Ferriari. He was before coming to Ferrari, switched to left and struggled and then Ferrari started setting up the right foot breaking for him again and he improved his pace. Now at Honda he is faced with left foot breaking again and again is struggling. I can't imagine how a driver at this level could maintain a 10/10's pace making this switch back and forth. This more than anything, might explain Rubens lack of pace in the Honda.

[Calorus]

Quote

Originally posted by J2NH


Rubens was a right foot breaker the last couple of years at Ferriari. He was before coming to Ferrari, switched to left and struggled and then Ferrari started setting up the right foot breaking for him again and he improved his pace. Now at Honda he is faced with left foot breaking again and again is struggling. I can't imagine how a driver at this level could maintain a 10/10's pace making this switch back and forth. This more than anything, might explain Rubens lack of pace in the Honda.

The only point on here worth really considering.

Several comparisons have been made across teams esp. Renault/Honda, but they seem unsupportable since only Barrichello has driven two contemporary cars from rival top teams.

[A Wheel Nut]

Quote

Originally posted by prty
Well it reminds me of Schumacher's celebration for the title in France 02 I think it was, the car behaves more or less the same. No TC those days so you probably don't need TC to do that, althought Alonso's slides are at lower speeds.

France 02 it was. Awesome little celebration for a monumental occasion.

[SeanValen]

Man the sport needs to get rid of traction control fast.

[Calorus]

Quote

Originally posted by SeanValen
Man the sport needs to get rid of traction control fast.

The only thing I agree with from the WHOLE 2008 reg's is the Standard ECU. Without that TC's here to stay.

[xype]

One of the reasons why Villeneuve had such problems last season at Sauber was (supposedly) because Sauber used Ferrari's traction control. Which was apparently very complicated to set up correctly or at least according to Villeneuve's wishes of having more control over the car. Some people even said that the only ones being able to set it up completely were the Ferrari engineers that developed it.

Seeing how Villeneuve and Button both drove without much problems at BAR, how Villeneuve suddenly is "reborn" with BMW's simple electronics (a fact they were often criticised for at Williams) and how Barrichello is having problems with the system, I think that the reason might really be that Barrichello is too used to Ferrari's solution. And that Ferrari's solution allows for a more detailed setup for a specific driver than BAR's or BMW's solutions do.

[rhm]

Interesting thing about how Rubens drives... I think it was a piece on Fifth Gear when Frank Mountain went to the Ferrari factory to buy a used F1 car. They were explaining about how different things could be set up to the driver's preference and showed how Michael used the full travel of the pedal to control the throttle very progressively as he liked to ballance the car on it through the corner, whereas Rubens had the whole throttle range mapped into about an inch of pedal travel because he liked to just get on and off it quickly.

[SennasCat]

Quote

Originally posted by rhm
Interesting thing about how Rubens drives... I think it was a piece on Fifth Gear when Frank Mountain went to the Ferrari factory to buy a used F1 car. They were explaining about how different things could be set up to the driver's preference and showed how Michael used the full travel of the pedal to control the throttle very progressively as he liked to ballance the car on it through the corner, whereas Rubens had the whole throttle range mapped into about an inch of pedal travel because he liked to just get on and off it quickly.

IIRC Jax also had a really short pedal when at Williams < 20mm ??.

[Calorus]

Quote

Originally posted by xype
One of the reasons why Villeneuve had such problems last season at Sauber was (supposedly) because Sauber used Ferrari's traction control. Which was apparently very complicated to set up correctly or at least according to Villeneuve's wishes of having more control over the car. Some people even said that the only ones being able to set it up completely were the Ferrari engineers that developed it.

Seeing how Villeneuve and Button both drove without much problems at BAR, how Villeneuve suddenly is "reborn" with BMW's simple electronics (a fact they were often criticised for at Williams) and how Barrichello is having problems with the system, I think that the reason might really be that Barrichello is too used to Ferrari's solution. And that Ferrari's solution allows for a more detailed setup for a specific driver than BAR's or BMW's solutions do.

It would also go some way to explaining Massa's pace and apparent comfort in both.

[MortenF1]

Quote

Originally posted by Steve Williams


IIRC Jax also had a really short pedal when at Williams < 20mm ??.

Jacques' throttle travel is only 16mms.

[baddog]

Which kind of explains his "brilliant or crap" style

[MortenF1]

...and maybe, why he often struggle in the wet. (Then again he's had some really great drives in the wet too, but all in all, he's not seen as a standout wet weather driver.)

[Tenmantaylor]

Quote

Originally posted by rhm
Interesting thing about how Rubens drives... I think it was a piece on Fifth Gear when Frank Mountain went to the Ferrari factory to buy a used F1 car. They were explaining about how different things could be set up to the driver's preference and showed how Michael used the full travel of the pedal to control the throttle very progressively as he liked to ballance the car on it through the corner, whereas Rubens had the whole throttle range mapped into about an inch of pedal travel because he liked to just get on and off it quickly.

I saw that too, good point.

Combined with his other comments it would definitely suggest that Rubens likes to use TC alot and cant get used to Honda's system which is obviously designed to suit Jens (or jens doesnt take full advantage of these type of systems).

[amardeep]

Quote

Honda's system which is obviously designed to suit Jens

And Davidson. And Sato. It seems that Rubens is the odd one out - let's hope he gets something he likes soon, but he must either have unusual requirements, or the Ferrari was unusual (or more tolerant / better / just different, whichever way you want to look at it) and he's got used to it.

[prty]

Just found this, which finally proves it's possible to do without TC