24 replies to this topic

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
That academic and legalistic analysis made in the secure comfort of 2005-06 does NOTHING to diminish my respect for Clive Hulme, Victoria Cross - nor for the gene pool which created Denny the Bear.
DCN

Hear Hear

Interesting that the story in the Telegraph paper did not make any mention of the son, and referred throughout to Sgt Alfred Hulme. He was of course known as Clive

[David M. Kane]

I believe the Germans dressed as American troops during the Battle of the Bulge. The Americans, to identify friend from foe, would fire out American baseball questions and other bits of Americana.
If you failed the test, you were treated as a spy and shot.

Sounds like Clive was one cool customer, clever too!

We Americans start all of this when we hid behind trees and shot the Red Coats. If I remember my history correctly that was considered very bad form at the time. I believe we now call it Stealth...

[Doug Nye]

Colonel Capps's reaction to this would be of interest, and very much an opinion to respect...if his employ would permit him to comment freely????

My understanding of Denny's father's VC is that it was awarded not for one solitary action, but for an ongoing series of them over several days, each one of which absolutely showed extraordinary resource and valour "in the presence of the enemy".

During that desperate fighting on the island of Crete, little quarter was shown by either the invading German paratroopers or the disorganised, under-armed and isolated defenders, including the Kiwis. Had I been in that situation - apart from the fact that I would undoubtedly have been the first to take permanent cover or wave a white flag (! yes really !) - I hope I would have had the savvy to don a disguise and take out the enemy snipers who were picking off my mates.

If they can't take a joke they shouldn't have joined.

That academic and legalistic analysis made in the secure comfort of 2005-06 does NOTHING to diminish my respect for Clive Hulme, Victoria Cross - nor for the gene pool which created Denny the Bear.

DCN

[KJJ]

Has anybody read this?

[Vicuna]

The kiwi 'historian' who wrote this piece of academic crap is presumably well pleased with himself as he lights his pipe and sips on his homemade wine.

He's had no sympathy with the right wing media here - it's a tiny section of the NZ media (most are bloody lefties) but it's the section I follow.

Forza A F Hulme

[Vicuna]

Originally posted by Vicuna
The kiwi 'historian' who wrote this piece of academic crap is presumably well pleased with himself as he lights his pipe and sips on his homemade wine.

He's had no sympathy with the right wing media here - it's a tiny section of the NZ media (most are bloody lefties) but it's the section I follow.

Forza A F Hulme

He's only had sympathy from the right wing media here...

Rather have had him on my side than an academic tree hugger in his homespun jersey.

[Vicuna]

Originally posted by Tim Murray
Now I know the story, my respect for him has gone up, not down. He was obviously a tremendously brave man.

And I third it.

"Unsanctioned murder"

Give me a frikkin break.

[Vicuna]

I found yesterday Denny won a Formula Junior race at Pescara.

I did not know this.

[Tim Murray]

Now I know the story, my respect for him has gone up, not down. He was obviously a tremendously brave man.

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Tim Murray
Now I know the story, my respect for him has gone up, not down. He was obviously a tremendously brave man.

I second that thought.

[philippe7]

Ridiculous....I'm always annoyed when people ( journalists , "historians" , etc...) come up stiffed-neck, tight-assed and holding their nose, carrying judgements made in their peace-time confort about what was rightly or wrongly done in a war situation....war is an horror in any case, and to speak of chevalry or "fairness" in fighting is an insult to the memory of all he victims.....those who are called "terrorists" on one side are called "resistants " or "freedom fighters" on the other.....and in any case, history is ultimately written by those who end up winning the war.....here in France we have lately been inflicted by the politicians and media an enormous load of self-guilt and repentance about the Algeria War , or colonising in the carribean.....very easy to set moral theories years or centuries later, once you know the outcome and whith the benefit of hindsight.......



...and before anybody gets upset , please note that a) I'm not a native english speaker and b) I've had a few glasses of wine before writing this

[Rosemayer]

For those who have not been in combat or hand to hand fighting you use everything and anything to survive.Mr Hulme should be forever admired.

http://www.nzetc.org...ame-208291.html

[Rosemayer]

Thank you Doug
I spent 23 months in Viet Nam as a Navy Seal.

My previous link to mr Hulme is rather lengthy but covers most of his contributions to the defence of Crete.

[Twin Window]

Chaps...

I can entirely understand how this topic has taken the route it has, trust me, but I think it pertinent we remind ourselves that while we're here on this BB - just like in any other open internet domain - we are a global community. It's easy to forget.

With that in mind, can we revert back to post number one and talk about Alfred Hulme in a purely motorsporting context?

Anyone who is bemused by this request can contact me via PM or email. The topic as it has evolved can, of course, be continued in the Paddock Club by those with access.

Many thanks.

[Twin Window]

Thanks for reading my post.

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Colonel Capps's reaction to this would be of interest, and very much an opinion to respect...

I will briefly break my exile from TNF to make a comment on this....


I have to assume that the scholars in question are actually serious and that their view of Sgt Hulme's actions are influenced by an anachronistic view of certain events which occur during wartime. I will spare you a learned discourse on the subject that War is a Crime, lucky you, and cut right to the chase....

Unless I am greatly mistaken, the German snipers that Sgt. Hulme killed were armed. Given an opportunity to place Sgt. Hulme in their sights, squeeze the trigger, feel the recoil, and terminate the life processes of the aforementioned Sgt. Hulme, there should be little doubt that any of those in the sniper team would have done so. This a minor consideration often ignored when viewing these things in the abstract.

As to what Sgt. Hulme did in this exact instance, one must take a moment and realize that his focus was first on the mission and then on his men -- both being quite intertwined in the reality that is combat. That he used subterfuge to place himself in the midst of the enemy and then used very clevers ploys to eliminate them as opponents on the field of battle reflects an enormous level of courage and initiative. Bravery is situational, but courage is something much more subtle, something that is not turned on and off like a switch. Sgt. Hulme demonstrated in this instance -- as well as in the other acts for which he was justifiably awarded the VC -- great courage, not "just" bravery. It takes an enormous amount of courage to willingly place yourself into the midst of your foes and then stand your ground.

Had I been one of the snipers and discovered that Sgt. Hulme was in the midst of my comrades, especially after having killed one or more of them, would I have gunned him down?

You bet.

Nor would I have blinked an eye.

We often forget that all of this works both ways. Men fight just as bravely and just as hard for "bad" causes as they do for "good" causes. And on the battlefield the only true "good" cause is being true to your comrades, not letting them down.

I am honest enough to doubt that I could have been as cool and as courageous as Sgt. Hulme was under those circumstances. That is why we recognize those who are cool and courageous under fire since the coward in all of us lurks just beneath our skin screaming to rip itself from us and escape when the firing begins, carrying us with him. We can all be brave under the right circumstances, but very, very few of us are both brave and courageous when it counts.

We historians are always coming up with things to say that often probably didn't need to be said. I would suggest that this poorly considered jotting from New Zealand falls into that category.

I will now return to the nether regions to resume my exile and leave you to your leisures.

[Andy Glaess]

Can anyone recommend any good books with information on the '67 champ's dad? I've read all that Google can offer, but am looking for some more in-depth coverage of his life. Denny's old man seems as least as interesting as he was.

Thanks

[Taverol]

Is the PC the designated BB garbage bin?

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps


I will briefly break my exile from TNF to make a comment on this....

An exile.. of what.. 8 days! Don Capp's latest posts I knew I'd seen a recent TNF posting.
Don, bless you, you make so many "farewells" & "comebacks" that you eclipse even Sinatra.
Why not just post your valued musings without a "I'm off" or "I'm back" fanfare?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins



An exile.. of what.. 8 days! Don Capp's latest posts I knew I'd seen a recent TNF posting.
Don, bless you, you make so many "farewells" & "comebacks" that you eclipse even Sinatra.
Why not just post your valued musings without a "I'm off" or "I'm back" fanfare?

My feelings exactly, Richie ;) I too was confused by the "comeback" as I wasn't aware he'd "gone" again ....

As to Sergeant Hulme: no-one has yet pointed out that the Crete campaign was fought with almost unprecedented ferocity. The German paras were being shot out of the air by ground defenders (mainly ANZACs with a motley band of British and Greek troops who'd already been evacuated from the Greek mainland) - as they would have dropped unarmed, who can say that Hulme's actions were against the rules of war? At least the men he killed were armed. Local civilians joined in with whatever weapons they could lay their hands on and the Germans only won after they took and held the strategically important airfield at Máleme. In the context of the campaign, I don't think his actions are in any way to be condemned.

The Fall of Crete

[repcobrabham]

poor americans; people accuse them of not understanding irony, then nobody spots it when they employ it! that, or don is a drama queen par excellence

these academic assertions are the gayest things ever - that lot probably doesn't approve of roleplay / disguises outside mistress's / master's dungeon...

[repcobrabham]

Originally posted by Taverol
Is the PC the designated BB garbage bin?

nah, TNF just can't tolerate controversy or emotion - stiff upper lip, don't you know. i think this is an interesting thread!

[Vitesse2]

I've retrieved this thread from the depths of the Paddock Club archive, having come across this signed 1945 picture on Facebook. It shows all the then living New Zealand VCs. Denny's father front and centre in uniform and beret.

 

[pacificquay]

This thread illustrates how some social mores have moved for the better in the last twenty years or so

[GregThomas]

My father had the greatest respect for Clive Hulme. I'm pretty sure Clive came to a Wigram meeting at which I was introduced to him

 

  As the WO2 in charge of transport for the Division on Crete my father shot his share of paras. At the end of the battle he was wounded and stayed until the last minute to try and disable what vehicles were still running. This meant he was captured and spent the next four years in POW camp.

My understanding is that this is when Pat Hoare was promoted into the WO2 position running the transport. A position in which he saw out the war.

 

Both men, Wally Thomas and Pat Hoare were founder members of the Motor Racing Club in Christchurch postwar.