117 replies to this topic

[Rob Ryder]

Can anyone help me with the history of the Iso-Marlboro FX3B chassis no.1? A friend in the Netherlands has recently bought this F1 car, and is trying to compile a complete history.

A picture can be found at :-
http://www.motorraci...cars/car006.htm


I have supplied him with the racing history (as Politoys FX3/1 then Iso-Marlboro FX3B/1) when owned by Frank Williams, but cannot find anything about it after it finished in Grand Prix racing. An old copy of Motor Sport stated that it was fitted with a dummy DFV and used as a Marlboro show car for a while, but I know nothing after that.

I have heard from another friend that it may have been used in historic races, and may have even been fitted with a Chevy V8 for a while (F5000?). If anyone cad shed light on this cars history I will pass it on - and please Theo!!

Rob

[Ray Bell]

If it had been fitted with a Chevy you would find traces of the conversion somewhere. Like where the chassis had to be extended because it wouldn't bolt up like a DFV.

[Don Capps]

Rob,

How urgent is this? Funny you should ask since I am -- really Matt & Felix, I am actually working on it!!! -- working on an 8W Special on the Williams and have some data on this particular car.

Drop me line.

[Rob Ryder]

Ray

The Iso is currently fitted with a dummy DFV again, and there does not seem to be any 'peculiar' fittings around the engine bay.

Maybe the Chevy V8 was a red-herring (or mis-information)?

Rob

[desmo]

Crappy pic, I know but check out the high front wing!

[Ray Bell]

Then again, there was some mixed class racing went on.. Ford V6 twin cams out of Capris ran with F5000... did they also run DFVs? It may have run in that class with them with the DFV and someone has the story confused.

[Megatron]

Did Marlboro own the team?

[Huw Jenjin]

I think "owned" would depend on whether you mean "have the biggest stake in" in which case ,probably, Yes, but the actual owner was Francis Williams.
I would be very surprised if this car was fitted with the Cosworth FGA 3 litre motor, most of the cars that took that motor were Modus (Tom Walkinshaw) Chevron (David Purley) and March (Many and varied).

[Rob Ryder]

I would like to get thoughts of the Atlas guru's on my dilemma regarding the cars entered by Frank Williams in the 1974 World Championship. Are they Williams FW-01, FW-02 and FW-03 or are they Iso-Marlboro IR-02, IR-03 and IR-04?

In Autocourse for the 1974 season (and some databases on the Web) they are referred to as Williams FW's, but in the Motor Sport magazines of the period they appear on the entry lists as IR's. Motor Sport, being published monthly in that period, would seem to be the more reliable source, but what do you think?

My memory of watching the races in 1974 is not all that clear, but I think they were always referred to as Iso-Marlboro's in the TV coverage. I also attended the British GP, but did not keep the program (woe is me!), again I seem to remember them being listed as Iso-Marlboro's. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The same problem arises later, when Frank bought a 308C from Hesketh. This appears in some publications and databases as the Williams FW-05, but it will always be a Hesketh 308C to me!

What are your thoughts and opinions on this re-naming of chassis?

Rob

[Marcel Schot]

For what it's worth, Bruce Jones' "The Complete Encyclopedia of Formula One" used the FW designation from 1974 on. Frank Williams' cars in 1973 are named Iso-Marlboro IR/FX3B though.

I guess if we want to be pure, we should stick with the official entry-lists. At least I don't trust TV, since the commentators here have done al but mistaken Hakkinen for Schumacher by now Also, sometimes old names stick. How many times would you find yourself calling a Prost a Ligier for example?

So the case is probably that Williams re-named the chassis for the greater pride and glory of himself. I think we have to live with that, but keep in mind that the car is basically an Iso or Hesketh. I believe the same thing happened later with Hector Rebaque : in 1979 he bought a Lotus 79 and renamed it Rebaque HR199.

Ah well, same thing with engines isn't it? Playlife=Supertec=Renault, Petronas=Ferrari, Mercedes=Ilmor...

[fines]

Well, the actual answer is twofold: The "competition name" of the cars was "ISO-Marlboro", the constructor "Frank Williams Racing Cars", abbreviated to "Williams". But to call them "Williams" is historically incorrect. These designations have been allocated retrospectively with the aim to disuse sponsor's names. While this makes sense in order to keep cars from changing their names it only serves to create even more confusion, in my humble opinion.

For my records I use a different approach: Cars are referred to by their competition name with an additional remark made to their actual constructor, or more accurately their builder. Thus a "JPS" is a Lotus, a "Copersucar" a Fittipaldi, a "Token" or "Motul" a Rondel and a "Playlife" or "Supertec" a Mecachrome (designed by Renault). There are countless other examples, and in order to keep track I think it's essential to give both designations.

As for the Williams FW05-01, this is not a sponsor's name, but still the car remains of course the Hesketh 308C-01!

Back to the 1974 Williams-entered cars: They were actually ISO-Marlboro FWs, 01 to 03, rebuilt from the 1973 ISO-Marlboro IRs, 01 and 02 (B), the latter being a replacement for the original IR02, wrecked at the Nürburgring. FW03 was newly built in 1974, thus never carried an IR designation. One of the less complicated stories about chassis designations, if you ask me !

[Don Capps]

Rob,

What a question! I am trying to get the loose ends tied up on the 8W Special on the Williams GP team and I intend to address this non-controversial topic then. It is, as Michael states, not that complicated.... just mind-numbing and exasperating!

[Rob Ryder]

Fines

You said that FW-01 and FW-02 were rebuilt from IR-01 & and IR-02 respectively, but that FW-03 was a completely new chassis that never carried the IR designation?

Cross checking the accepted FW designations with the IR chassis listed in Motor Sport for 1974 Grand Prix I find;

FW-01 = IR-03
FW-02 = IR-02
FW-03 = IR-04

These are the only IR chassis numbers appearing in Motor Sports mag for 1974. The chassis used by Merzario from Brands Hatch onwards is definitely listed as IR-04.

So where does IR-03 come into the picture, as you only mention IR-01 and IR-02? This may not be complicated to Don, but is annoying the hell out of me!!!!

Rob

[p][Edited by Rob Ryder on 10-05-2000]

[Megatron]

It is always a bit wierd when the "naming" of a car or engine comes in.

I remember a lot of teams during the 1970's used customer MARCHs, some of them, like Efiland, barley resemeabled the MARCH at all, but in the record books, the car was still known as the "MARCH".

[fines]

Rob, IR03 was apparently used for the replacement chassis of IR02, but that seems to be incorrect. There's no evidence that the new car was called other than IR02 again, so I use the IR02 (B) designation to identify it. BTW, this procedure of "recycling chassis numbers" is nothing unusual. The main reason for it seems to have been the reluctance of the teams to change customs papers.

But if IR01/02 became FW01/02 or the other way round is not so clear. I always thought the more straightforward renaming procedure would've been applied, but am not so sure. IR04 is definitely wrong, this should read FW03!

Megatron, the Eifelland (that's how it's spelled) was a car built by March (721-04) and modified by the German team several times until it looked a totally different car. But, as I seem to remember, only the actual bodywork was changed so that the chassis remained a March not only by pedigree, but also by appearance. It was later sold to a British team and appeared with standard bodywork as a totally conventional March 721.

[Racer.Demon]

Rob, Michael, Don,

To complete this messy picture we should also throw in the McGuire and the Apollon - plus the Politoys beforehand.

I thought the picture looked something like this:

1972:
- Politoys FX3 (Len Bailey design, driven and destroyed by Pesca, rebuilt for Amon)

1973:
- Iso-Marlboro FX3B (three cars, raced by Galli, Ganley, Pretorious and Trimmer early in the season)
- Iso-Marlboro IR (John Clarke design, "refined" by Gianpaolo Dallara, of De Tomaso 505 fame, three cars: IR01, IR02, IR03)

1974:
- Iso-Marlboro FW (in fact still the IR01, IR02 and IR03), of which IR02 is replaced by another chassis also named IR02

1975:
- Williams "FW01", "FW02", "FW03" (renamed Iso-Marlboro IR01, IR02, IR03), of which the original IR01/FW01 finally disappears from service during the season
- Williams FW ("FW04"), a new one-off design, first raced by Merzario in Spain (can't remember the designer right now)

1976:
- Williams FW04 continues into this season but is then sold to Australian privateer Brian McGuire, who then tries to prequalify it for the British GP
- Williams FW05 (two cars, of which FW05-1 is in fact the sole Hesketh 308C-01 by Postlethwaite, and FW05-2 is, most probably, the updated IR02 "B", dating back to 1974!)
- Williams "FW03" is kept on as a spare (can anyone confirm this?)

1977:
- After the Wolf debacle Frank Williams Racing Cars is dead. Long live Williams Grand Prix Engineering. With Saudia money and some local Belgian backing Williams buys a 761 for Patrick Neve to keep his toe in the water while Patrick Head is working on a totally new car. Frank's old junk yard of cars is racing on nevertheless:
- Williams "FW03" (the last of the remaining original IRs) is bought by Loris Kessel and appears as the "Apollon" or Apollon-Williams (which is it?) at the 1977 Italian GP
- Williams FW04 is turned into the McGuire BM1 for the 1977 Shellsport Group 8 Series (the later Aurora championship). McGuire gets killed in practice for the August round at Brands.

1978:
- Williams FW06: the start of a totally new approach. Logic and results finally appear. The rest is, as they say, history.

I must have made a mistake or two down the line, as this is from the top of my head, so feel free to fill in the blanks.

M.

[fines]

Yes, Mattijs, a few mistakes...

1972:
- Politoys FX3 (one built)

1973:
- ISO-Marlboro FX3B (one rebuilt from Politoys FX3; one new)
- ISO-Marlboro IR (two new cars for Spanish GP, 01 and 02; one replacement chassis at Austrian GP, 02)

1974:
- ISO-Marlboro FW (two rebuilt from IR, 01 and 02; one new car at Spanish GP, 03)

1975:
- Williams FW (two rebuilt from ISO-Marlboro FW, 02 and 03; one replacement chassis at Austrian GP, 03)
- Williams FW04 (one new car at Spansih GP; one new at US GP, 02 - with this car the FW-numbering changed from chassis to type designation)

1976:
- Williams FW04 still used until sold to McGuire
- Williams FW05 (one rebuilt from Hesketh 308C-01, 01; one new car at South African GP, 02 - actually started at Hesketh but completed by Williams; one new car at French GP, 03)

1977:
- McGuire BM1 (rebuilt from Williams FW04)
- Apollon (rebuilt from Williams FW03 - no original IR, built in 1975 as a replacement chassis, and not an Apollon-Williams, although ad hoc I can't remember a type designation, will check on this)

Cheers,

[fines]

Don, what happened to FW04-02?

It was used in practice for the US GP of 1975, but then Laffite's wife accidentally put visor cleaning fluid into her husband's eyes (or, more probably only one eye...) to prevent him from taking the start. The car never appears again in my records, so what happened? A test crash?

[Don Capps]

Allow me to address that in the next week or so since I am on the road this weekend. I am convinced that Frank Williams is related to the Maserati brothers or the Orsi family...this is the sort of thing I would expect from them.

Indeed, I have rewritten the history of several cars more times than I care to admit. And I thought that only the Alfa team had totally screwed up their chassis numbers just to give folks like us headaches...

[Ray Bell]

Oh, Lotus were pretty good, as has been discussed here on occasion.... new numbers on old chassis, new chassis on old numbers....

[jarama]

Racer.Demon,

I think that the FW04 was designed by John Clarke, as the IR's and FW01 to FW03, wasn't he?.

[Rob Ryder]

Don, Michael, Felix et al

Thanks for the in depth information regarding my original question. I think for my own database I'll use the FW designations as 'Type' and the IR, 308C etc. as chassis number.

I look forward to Don's full special on 8W.

Rob

[tonicco]

I've just seen a movie/documentary about the '73 Race of Champions, held in Brands Hatch (3/18/73) and after reading the movie notes a doubt come to my mind: Tony Trimmer drove a Williams FX3/1 - Cosworth DFV V8 to 4th place.

Can someone shed some light over this FX3/1 thing?

Why was this id used by Williams?

I'm pretty sure that this was used before the FW, but that's as much as I know...

(as usual) Thanks in advance for any explanation

[FEV]

Some other TNF members are more qualified than me on this kind of subject but if I remember well this car was the Gian-Paolo Dallara designed Iso-Rivolta F1 with wich Arturo Merzario had good results in 1974.

[Vitesse2]

I think you're getting a bit mixed up FEV!

Dallara designed the 1970 Williams car, which was the de Tomaso 308 (the one with the confusing chassis numbers starting 505...)

The FX3 was the 1972 Williams - it was meant to have appeared in 1971, but Frank was, as usual in those days, short of the readies. It was designed by Len Bailey and in 1972 it was known as the Politoys, in deference to Williams' sponsor. Ron Tauranac also worked on the car during 1972. It raced twice without success that year.

It reappeared in early 1973, this time as the Iso-Marlboro, along with a second chassis. These were updated and known as FX3B, but a new design was necessary once the European season started because of new regs on deformable structures. The FX3Bs were pensioned off and succeeded by the Iso-Marlboro IR cars. There were three, numbered IR01, IR02 and IR03. They were later known as FW01, FW02 and FW03 - FW03 later became the Apollon...

[FEV]

Yes, more than a bit !!!! I realised my (enormous) error after I wrote it. How sad to be so young and to already have a fading memory . But tell me, was it Dallara who designed the Iso or am I totally out of it ? This car wasn't too bad, no ?

[Vitesse2]

Sorry, should have carried on ...

The original IR was designed by John Clarke, the update to FW spec was done by Roy Stokoe. Dallara was called in as a consultant, which apparently caused Clarke to leave.

As you point out, Merzario did score twice with the car in 1974: fourth in Italy and sixth in South Africa. In 1973 van Lennep and Ganley got a sixth place each, but that was the sum total of the cars' "achievements" - six points, four of them scored by Little Art.

[FEV]

Thanks Vitesse.
Yep six points isn't much, but can't the Iso be considered the best Williams-run car between the Brabham of 1969 and the FW07 of 1979 ? In between those ten years he didn't have much success with any of his cars (as you said De Tomaso, Politoys, March). Merzario was fast (sometimes maybe too much !! he had a big off at Jarama I think where a photograph almost got killed). It's a pity
Tony Trimmer didn't have the chance to prove his talent in WDC. For me, Jaussaud and Trimmer are the best two formulae drivers of the 70s who never started a WDC GP.

Sorry for my ignorance, but who was John Clark ?

FEV

[FEV]

Thanks Rob. Does your friend still own the car ?

[Allen Brown]

And I can offer results for FX3/1.

Also for the IR/FW cars: 01, 02 and 03.

Better late than never!

Allen

[Rob Ryder]

FEV

Yes, Theo still has the car. When he bought it the paint scheme was as shown in the photograph (a Marlboro show car). I have sent him some images of the car as raced, and he is currently restoring it to the correct Iso-Marlboro livery.

Rob

[Vitesse2]

FEV: the only other reference I have to Clarke is as designer of the Boxer PR276 F2/Atlantic car from 1976. Hodges says there were plans to build a Boxer F1 for the British series, but nothing ever came of them.

Looks like the F2 car might have been quite good, as Rouff placed it second at Nurburgring in 1976 and Henton won in it at Thruxton in 1977 "before the money ran out".

[Gary C]

Tonicco, just what was th edocumentary you've seen on the 73 Race Of Champions? Title? & where did you see it?

[John-w]

Hello,

one of my next models in scale 1/12th will be the Politoys FX3, now I have a lot of photos
from the car, but I need a photo (rear view) from the the wing, perhaps
anybody can help me, thanks

John-w

http://www.john-w.de/models/

[thecako]

[macoran]

Those are Iso Marlboro IR01 and IR02 versions aren't they ?

[macoran]

Originally posted by John-w
Hello,

one of my next models in scale 1/12th will be the Politoys FX3, now I have a lot of photos
from the car, but I need a photo (rear view) from the the wing, perhaps
anybody can help me, thanks

John-w

http://www.john-w.de/models/

John,
What is it you are looking for ?
I only have seen a Manfred Foerster pic...nr 20832 ....right side view German GP Pescarolo
and a left side view from a Dutch F1 magazine.

[John-w]

Hello,

here is photo from the Politoys FX3, from this car we need a detailded photo from the rear wing
and the wing suspension.




Here is a photo from the model in scale 1/12th



And here is a photo from the ISO Marlboro which is located in Netherland.


John-w

[gio66]

In 2005 I spoke with Loris Kessel in Imola and I asked him about the Apollon.

The FW03 was modified by the Fly studio. At the second lap of the free practice, Kessel spuns at Lesmo 2. An axle shaft "leave the car" for a planning error, the Apollon crashed into the barriers and bounced to the track and Laffite avoided the crash for a little bit.
The car was destroyed and Loris had to bear the laughs of laffite when he come back to the pits...



The autograph of Loris





Loris, the "italian monument" Dino Zoff and Stefano Domenicali

[timf5000]

Have only just seen this thread!

There was a Williams running in F.Libre in 1983/1984 fitted with a Chev F5000 lump and DG300. Was converted by Alistair Thompson (ex- special saloon Cortina racer) and it appeared at several national Libre races. There was an article on the car and team in Autosport and somewhere I have a Christmas card from Alistair with the car on the front driven by Santa!

Tim

[macoran]

Originally posted by timf5000

There was a Williams running in F.Libre in 1983/1984 fitted with a Chev F5000 lump and DG300. Was converted by Alistair Thompson (ex- special saloon Cortina racer) and it appeared at several national Libre races. There was an article on the car and team in Autosport and somewhere I have a Christmas card from Alistair with the car on the front driven by Santa!

Tim

Tim......if you come on TNF and say something like this...you are more or less obligated to scan and show !!

[timf5000]

Supposed to in the workshop rebuilding my two broken F5000's but can't keep away from this site! Sometime over the next couple of days I will venture into the loft and find the card!

[Isoman]

Hello,

here is my Politoys FX3 model in scale 1/12th



more photos on my homepage:
http://www.canamcar-...F1/politoys.htm

regards
ISOMAN

[David M. Kane]

Was the FGA a V-6 motor?

[DAVE TAYLOR]

ISO MARBORO FX3/2 RACED BY ALISTAIR THOMPSON & DAVE TAYLOR WITH A EX BRIAN ROBINSON MORAND CHEVY IN THE 80'S. (GEARBOX MARKED SID TAYLOR)
PURCHASED FROM TROJANS FOR £360 SO THAT THE SUSPENSION COULD BE USED ON A SUPER SALOON CORTINA. (SEE IN THE BACK GROUND ON GERRY MARSHALL BABY BERTHA YOU TUBE VIDEO)
LATER CONVERTED INTO F5000 LIBRE CAR AND THEN SOLD TO DON WOOD AND DRIVEN BY RICHARD PEACOCK WITH DFV RE-INSTALLED.
BELIEVED TO BE IN ITALY??
WILL POST SOME PICS BUT NOT CLEAR HOW TO DO IT?

DAVE TAYLOR

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Isoman

here is my Politoys FX3 model in scale 1/12th

Having only ever had two fairly fleeting views of the real thing at Brands in July (and then again in October) of 1972, that looks a very good recreation to my eyes!

As it's a 1/12 scale model, I presume that your basis was a Tamiya kit - but which one?

Here's the one-and-only pic I took of it at the British GP that year;



...and one from the Victory Race in October, with Amon at the wheel;

[macoran]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Was the FGA a V-6 motor?

Hewland gearbox ?

[fines]

I think there is some confusion here, FGA is indeed the type number of a Hewland 'box, while the Ford V6 was, I believe, GAA? Strange how a typo can trigger some very cryptic posts after more than seven years...

[bschenker]

The Hewland FGA transmission was 1972 thee successor from the FG 400, a combination from DG300 (differential) and FT200 (gearbox). After a FGB version the transmission is still in production as FGC with many things changed.

Here the Hewland FG400-1 transmission today, first time fitted 1968 on the Brabham Repco BT24-3. Frank Williams and Silvio Moser Racing Team also used this transmission with the Cosworth DFV/DFW.

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by DAVE TAYLOR
ISO MARBORO FX3/2 RACED BY ALISTAIR THOMPSON & DAVE TAYLOR WITH A EX BRIAN ROBINSON MORAND CHEVY IN THE 80'S. (GEARBOX MARKED SID TAYLOR)
PURCHASED FROM TROJANS FOR £360 SO THAT THE SUSPENSION COULD BE USED ON A SUPER SALOON CORTINA. (SEE IN THE BACK GROUND ON GERRY MARSHALL BABY BERTHA YOU TUBE VIDEO)
LATER CONVERTED INTO F5000 LIBRE CAR AND THEN SOLD TO DON WOOD AND DRIVEN BY RICHARD PEACOCK WITH DFV RE-INSTALLED.
BELIEVED TO BE IN ITALY??
WILL POST SOME PICS BUT NOT CLEAR HOW TO DO IT?

DAVE TAYLOR

Welcome Dave. There are instructions somewhere here on how to use imageshack.us but alternatively you can email the pictures to me at allen@oldracingcars.com and I'll be happy to post them for you.

There's a history of your old car on my site. Alistair Thompson raced FX3/2 at Mallory in June 1983 but that's the only results I know about. Did it race often?

Allen