36 replies to this topic

[Shallow Vessel]

http://www.autosport...4657797_GEPA--3
http://www.autosport...4831502_GEPA--3

Unbelievable!!!

What are we going to see next??

[Menace]

Errrr... Your links dont work.


Now I got to go to the gallery myself.







;)

[Shallow Vessel]

Originally posted by Menace
Errrr... Your links dont work.


Now I got to go to the gallery myself.


;)

Woops!!

Try these-
http://www.autosport...4657797_GEPA--3
http://www.autosport...4831502_GEPA--3

[RDM]

No wonder they "can't afford" to buy/develop a V8...they piss their money away on glorified mobile tents.

[uffen]

A few years ago when Jaguar entered the sport they mounted a huge leaping cat over the entrance to their hospitality area. They were asked to remove it as it was deemed to be too garish for F1. It was the wrong sort of image.

Now they allow Red Bull to do this? How standards have fallen.

[vtpachyderm]

Originally posted by uffen
A few years ago when Jaguar entered the sport they mounted a huge leaping cat over the entrance to their hospitality area. They were asked to remove it as it was deemed to be too garish for F1. It was the wrong sort of image.

Now they allow Red Bull to do this? How standards have fallen.

Forget about standards falling. The fact that the Torro Rosso team has an elaborate 'tent' setup, and yet are using V10's based on a charity rule is more of a question mark in my opinion. I know this is off topic to the threads team, but still...

However, the RedBull 'tent' is quite . There was a nice writeup about all this marketing spending in this weeks journal.

[TOPCAT1976]

[cynasism on]

surely marketting & engine development are 2 different budgets

[cynasism off]

[Dudley]

Originally posted by vtpachyderm


Forget about standards falling. The fact that the Torro Rosso team has an elaborate 'tent' setup, and yet are using V10's based on a charity rule is more of a question mark in my opinion. I know this is off topic to the threads team, but still...
.

And you'd suggest forcing them to use which V8 exactly? It was waaay too late to change anything.

[RDM]

Originally posted by TOPCAT1976
[cynasism on]

surely marketting & engine development are 2 different budgets

[cynasism off]

I would have thought your cynicism 'on' and 'off' should have been the other way around.

[vtpachyderm]

Originally posted by Dudley


And you'd suggest forcing them to use which V8 exactly? It was waaay too late to change anything.

Obviously not for this season as they've already committed to the V10's, but talk of them using it next season as well is a little annoying.

The fact that Aguri could shoehorn a V8 into an old chassis however doesn't help Torro Rosso's cause too much though. But in my opinion, and I could be wrong, Cosworth could have given them a supply of V8's before the season started.

Also, if Torro Rosso had stuck with the Minardi chassis and V10's, I wouldn't be so irritated, but using what is technically last years V10 RBR really means that what Red Bull did was not take over the Minardi outfit, but buy the grid slot IMHO, but still fall back on the excuse of we have the Minardi contract. Hypothetically then, since Stoddart still has the Minardi name, if he got the 12th spot, then he is entitled to the V10's ;) ?

[RDM]

Originally posted by vtpachyderm


Obviously not for this season as they've already committed to the V10's, but talk of them using it next season as well is a little annoying.

The fact that Aguri could shoehorn a V8 into an old chassis however doesn't help Torro Rosso's cause too much though. But in my opinion, and I could be wrong, Cosworth could have given them a supply of V8's before the season started.

Also, if Torro Rosso had stuck with the Minardi chassis and V10's, I wouldn't be so irritated, but using what is technically last years V10 RBR really means that what Red Bull did was not take over the Minardi outfit, but buy the grid slot IMHO, but still fall back on the excuse of we have the Minardi contract. Hypothetically then, since Stoddart still has the Minardi name, if he got the 12th spot, then he is entitled to the V10's ;) ?

TBH though Torro Rosso were just pushing the business rules to the limit and exploiting them as much as they can.

It doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to see that they are equally happy to squeeze every last penny out of anybody who feels the need to pay for their drink. It's all legal, and above board, but leaves a bad taste in the mouth (in more ways than one!)

[Uxoros]

Since end of last year, paddock insiders say that Red Bull is starting to irritate with their marketing policy and that they are not amusing anymore from what they were at the beginning.

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by vtpachyderm


Forget about standards falling. The fact that the Torro Rosso team has an elaborate 'tent' setup, and yet are using V10's based on a charity rule is more of a question mark in my opinion. I know this is off topic to the threads team, but still...

However, the RedBull 'tent' is quite . There was a nice writeup about all this marketing spending in this weeks journal.

Um.... They can't exactly force a team to break their contracts with suppliers. Minardi had signed up for 3 or four years of V10s from cosworth. If they went V8s with Cosworth or anybody else they would of had to trash their deal and end up paying twice for their engines. Next year is the last of that deal. If Williams switch to toyota I am sure Cosworth will be willing to expand on the V10 deal and have STR just pay more for the V8s (which apparently would allow them even more performance then the V10s their using, Look at the numbers STR is 5 seconds quicker then last year even though they are using a slower engine). But if Williams stays will cosworth I doubt they would in a hurry to redo the contract with STR.

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by Topweasel


Um.... They can't exactly force a team to break their contracts with suppliers. Minardi had signed up for 3 or four years of V10s from cosworth. If they went V8s with Cosworth or anybody else they would of had to trash their deal and end up paying twice for their engines.

I doubt that's the case. In most long-term supply deals, the supplier's obligations under the contract are to supply a product suitable to the needs of the buyer. If memory serves, the Mindardi-Cosworth agreement was entered into prior to establishing the V8 engine formula. Suppose that the FIA did not permit the financially strapped teams to continue with interim, restricted V10's? Cosworth could not compel Minardi to purchase engines unsuitable to their needs. No, most contracts are written with the foresight to account for rule changes, much in the way construction contracts are written to account for possible changes in building or zoning codes.

[LB]

You shouldn't really compare Red Bull lite with the position of the Minardis last year (except to show how much faster they are with the same engine) but with the position of Red Bull A last year..

[Dudley]

Originally posted by vtpachyderm


Obviously not for this season as they've already committed to the V10's, but talk of them using it next season as well is a little annoying.

Agreed.

[TailHappy]

Originally posted by Scudetto


I doubt that's the case. In most long-term supply deals, the supplier's obligations under the contract are to supply a product suitable to the needs of the buyer. If memory serves, the Mindardi-Cosworth agreement was entered into prior to establishing the V8 engine formula. Suppose that the FIA did not permit the financially strapped teams to continue with interim, restricted V10's? Cosworth could not compel Minardi to purchase engines unsuitable to their needs. No, most contracts are written with the foresight to account for rule changes, much in the way construction contracts are written to account for possible changes in building or zoning codes.

This reasoning doesn't sound right to me.

An engine (or any) supplier obviously pours lotsa money into the product they are selling. Contracts in place for the future are how they can afford development now. If I lease an apartment for 12 months but my company move me to another city after 6, my landlord would not be expected to just accept the fact I am breaking the contract early.

Or another example, if my company produces gadgiewatsies and your company orders 1000 of them from me, but after delivery of 500 the rules in your country declare gadgiewatsies are not suitable for kids anymore, you would still be responsible for taking delivery of, and paying for, the remaining 500 gadgiewatsies.

If an F1 team signs a contract for an engine that extends past a point in time where regulations can change, then that is a risk they have introduced and are willing to wear.

My answer is yes, Cosworth could still compel Minardi to purchase the engines even if they are now unsuitable for their needs.

Having said all that, I still dont agree with being allowed to continue with the engines next year.

[squidbreath]

Originally posted by RDM
No wonder they "can't afford" to buy/develop a V8...they piss their money away on glorified mobile tents.

Both Red Bull teams are doing very well relative to where they were before Red Bull bought them. Why is that? In part, because the Red Bull organization is a master at promotion: they turn lifestyle advertising, sugar and water into profits. Jaguar pissed money away on their advertising: turning lifestyle advertising, rubber and steel into losses.

[squidbreath]

Originally posted by uffen
A few years ago when Jaguar entered the sport they mounted a huge leaping cat over the entrance to their hospitality area. They were asked to remove it as it was deemed to be too garish for F1. It was the wrong sort of image.

Now they allow Red Bull to do this? How standards have fallen.

It is just a building. A building has a use. A giant chrome jaguar has no use.

[squidbreath]

Originally posted by Uxoros
Since end of last year, paddock insiders say that Red Bull is starting to irritate with their marketing policy and that they are not amusing anymore from what they were at the beginning.

The level of irritation of red bull's competitors is directly proportional to how many points red bull scores. The competitors were happy as long as they thought red bull was not a credible threat.

[squidbreath]

Originally posted by vtpachyderm
Obviously not for this season as they've already committed to the V10's, but talk of them using it next season as well is a little annoying.

The rules say that it is ok to use v10's. The FIA is free to restrict the V10 performance even more. Should Red Bull not use them because it is "annoying"?

[Calorus]

Originally posted by squidbreath


It is just a building. A building has a use. A giant chrome jaguar has no use.

Unless you're worried about your crops being attacked by giant chrome birds.

[squidbreath]

Originally posted by Calorus
Unless you're worried about your crops being attacked by giant chrome birds.

Excellent point. I'm sure the local vineyards could use one.

[WGD706]

Team Red Bull, started from scratch by the energy drinks company to enter NASCAR Nextel Cup competition next year, has added former Formula 1 engineer John Probst as its Technical Director.
Probst, 35, brings engineering experience including stints with Stewart Grand Prix and Jaguar Racing in F1, and Ford Racing Technology’s Champ Car program.
Probst joins General Manager Marty Gaunt, Competition Director Elton Sawyer and another recent appointee Guenther Steiner (a technical advisor who came from the Red Bull Racing F1 team) as the team's core racing leadership.
Team Red Bull is one of three operations - Michael Waltrip Racing and Bill Davis Racing being the others - confirmed to field Camrys as Toyota makes its Cup debut next year. The Red Bull operation will field two Toyota teams in Nextel Cup in 2007.


http://www.speedtv.c...o/nascar/23101/

[squidbreath]

It sounds like they are making a serious attempt at NASCAR.

[Kaiser]

Running a Toyota might not be the best way to win over nascar fans.

[squidbreath]

There are plenty of Toyotas in parking lots at NASCAR events. This whole "Toyota is unamerican' thing is stupid. Besides that, if NASCAR fans indeed dislike and don't buy Toyotas, it shows that it is a market to be tapped. If I was Toyota, I'd rather sell against Ford and Chevy then myself.

[vtpachyderm]

Originally posted by squidbreath


The rules say that it is ok to use v10's. The FIA is free to restrict the V10 performance even more. Should Red Bull not use them because it is "annoying"?

To me, and I mean, just my opinion, is that the current rules formula mandates that engines are limited to V8's. The V10 in question was not a rule per se, but more of a compromise to ensure a full grid for this season before Minardi was sold off to Red Bull. Yes, the other teams were also allowed to use V10's if they chose to, but they chose not to, since I believe they stuck by the spirit of the rules. I mean, if Minardi was still around, they would not be so upset. The fact that the detuned V10's are taking points away from the V8's is somehow, I feel, just not right given the amount of money and resources other manufacturers are pouring into their V8 programs. I mean, even Cosworth would appreciate another team running V8's, so as to further their development program.

Restricting performance just doesn't seem right in F1, and I know, this is all my opinion, so I'm not arguing right or wrong.

After reading the article about only allowing 12 teams, with Prodrive saying they would buy customer V8's from Cosworth, the FIA should just say, no more V10's, sorry, and thus if Red Bull were to pull out since its toys were taken away, no big deal, there are 10 other teams willing to take their spot. It would be sad to see them go, but for F1 to maintain some semblance of being the pinnacle of open wheel racing, everyone should at least be in equal machinery without the need for equivalence formula's.

[skinnylizard]

while massive i dont find it garish or loud at all. it works for them, then good. its not like they arent making all the right moves towards success.

[Calorus]

Originally posted by squidbreath
It sounds like they are making a serious attempt at NASCAR.

Maybe it'll stop them from foisting sub-standard Americans onto the single seater stage. Speeds, not slow - but he's the one decent exponent from a multi-million dollar programme.

[Ickx]

I just find it funny how people say react to the Red Bull Motorhome now compared to how McLaren's was received a few years back.

Now: Wow, that's amazing
Then: They should spend there money on the car instead, **** Dennis.

[Calorus]

I think one of the big differences is that McLaren had a job to do. They were a Manufacturer backed Racing team, and there for the results. If RBR never win a race, but get a few podiums and a few points, no-one will bat an eyelid, because they are perceived as a marketing operation.

[squidbreath]

Originally posted by Calorus
Maybe it'll stop them from foisting sub-standard Americans onto the single seater stage. Speeds, not slow - but he's the one decent exponent from a multi-million dollar programme.

The Red Bull driver program has included an Austrian (Klien), an Italian (Liuzzi), a Swiss (Jani), two Germans (Friesacher & Ammermueller), an Indian (Karthekeyan), and a Brazilian (Bernoldi), as well as an American (Speed). You admit that Speed is 'decent'. Who exactly then are the "sub-standard Americans" that are being foisted on the single seater stage? Charlie Kimball certainly seems decent enough and Colin Fleming is not bad either. Neither one is a Senna, but who is?

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder. Did Red Bull pass you by in their driver search?

[AyePirate]

Originally posted by Calorus
I think one of the big differences is that McLaren had a job to do. They were a Manufacturer backed Racing team, and there for the results. If RBR never win a race, but get a few podiums and a few points, no-one will bat an eyelid, because they are perceived as a marketing operation.

At this point Red Bull don't have the option to be a manufacturer backed team. Maybe this will change.

If they were a pure marketing excercise (no doubt they are in large part there to promote the drink) they wouldn't have hired Coulthard (a bit older than the target redbull consumer), Newey and forked over for expensive top of the line engines. I think they really like racing and selling drinks is the excuse.

Teams build big fancy Paddock centers to impress potential sponsors/partners. Which is not something a pure marketing exercise would even bother doing. i would expect to see both teams become more conventional as time goes by.

[No brain no pain]

Originally posted by AyePirate


At this point Red Bull don't have the option to be a manufacturer backed team. Maybe this will change.

If they were a pure marketing excercise (no doubt they are in large part there to promote the drink) they wouldn't have hired Coulthard (a bit older than the target redbull consumer), Newey and forked over for expensive top of the line engines. I think they really like racing and selling drinks is the excuse.

Teams build big fancy Paddock centers to impress potential sponsors/partners. Which is not something a pure marketing exercise would even bother doing. i would expect to see both teams become more conventional as time goes by.

This is business, just as Marlboro did some years ago, "bombing" the market.

E

nb np

[WGD706]

Originally posted by Kaiser
Running a Toyota might not be the best way to win over nascar fans.

Toyota executives are wide open in building their Nextel Cup tour operations, and now they're raiding teams right and left, according to car owners. Don Miller, of the Roger Penske team, said that Toyota has picked up five Penske men already: "They just offer them $20,000 more than they're currently making, and get them." Ganassi has been so upset at losing crewmen to Toyota that he has sent the company a "cease-and-desist" letter.
http://www.journalno...tacodalogin=yes

[Calorus]

Originally posted by AyePirate


At this point Red Bull don't have the option to be a manufacturer backed team. Maybe this will change.

If they were a pure marketing excercise (no doubt they are in large part there to promote the drink) they wouldn't have hired Coulthard (a bit older than the target redbull consumer), Newey and forked over for expensive top of the line engines. I think they really like racing and selling drinks is the excuse.

Teams build big fancy Paddock centers to impress potential sponsors/partners. Which is not something a pure marketing exercise would even bother doing. i would expect to see both teams become more conventional as time goes by.

Sans doute, it's a questionof appearances rather than fact. But to turn up on a Friday with the might of Stuttgart behind you certainly says you're there to prove something. Red Bull, as a marketing exercise creates less inherent expectation. Hence the praise it receives for points, in comparison to Ferrari's early season pace woe.