9 replies to this topic

[David Lawson]

Apologies if this has been on the forum before but I couldn't find it in a search so a couple of questions.

The £7500 cost of a customer Cosworth DFV represented an affordable and competitive engine to teams during the 3 litre formula years. This figure was widely known but I'm not sure that I've ever seen figures for other teams or suppliers engines in both the 1.5 litre and 3 litre periods of the 1960s.

What was the purchase and servicing cost of a BRM and Coventry-Climax V8 during the 1.5 litre period in the early 1960s?

During the first two years of the 3 litre formula, BRM were running the H16 and the stretched V8 and developing the V12 as well as supplying Lotus, McLaren and a couple of private teams with various engines. Was this profitable for BRM and/or was this a distraction to their own team effort?

Thanks for any information you might have.

David

[ian senior]

The ATS-based engine offered by Derrington and developed (so they said) by Gear Speed Developments in 1966 was priced at £2300 . Not bad for a claimed 296 bhp on carbs, which was Repco-competitive. Presumably (and I'm guessing) this was the engine used by Silvio Moser in his Cooper-ATS in 1967.

[Ray Bell]

If it's any help, a new 2.5 Climax FPF engine was £1750 in Australia in the early sixties...

[RTH]

You could probably multiply that £7500 by 25 to get to todays money so £190,000 per engine still a relative bargain compared to the £50M + apparently the current teams spend on engines each year out of the £350 M the top teams spend in total for racing 2 cars over a single season. And I believe these current 19500RPM engines are regarded as disposable items by the very top teams as they are so lightly built and are scrapped after first use and not rebuilt at all.

[Barry Boor]

This interests me too.

So far we haven't found anyone who seems to know the cost of a 1.5 litre F.1 engine.

I would guess that a BRM would have been quite a bit more expensive than a Climax.

[Roger Clark]

Quote

Originally posted by Barry Boor
This interests me too.

So far we haven't found anyone who seems to know the cost of a 1.5 litre F.1 engine.

I would guess that a BRM would have been quite a bit more expensive than a Climax.

In 1962 an FWMV cost £3,000. In the winter of 62-63, following Climax's threatened withdrawal, the British accessory manufacturers agreed to pay a subsidy to the constructors to enable them to pay a more economic price to Climax. Following this, the price rose to £5,000.

I'm not sure about the BRM being more expensive; there were more private entries using the Bourne engine. Presumably, they didn't receive the subsidy.

[bschenker]

Quote

ian senior
The ATS-based engine offered by Derrington and developed (so they said) by Gear Speed Developments in 1966 was priced at £2300 . Not bad for a claimed 296 bhp on carbs, which was Repco-competitive. Presumably (and I'm guessing) this was the engine used by Silvio Moser in his Cooper-ATS in 1967.

The engine used in Kurt Baumann`s Cooper ATS was prepared at Modena by Alf Francis. For the power ??????? clearly les then Repco 620.

[Ray Bell]

Quote

Originally posted by Roger Clark
.....I'm not sure about the BRM being more expensive; there were more private entries using the Bourne engine. Presumably, they didn't receive the subsidy.

Was the BRM perhaps more available?

Seems that Climax were probably being selective about who got their engines, the numbers probably being on the thin side the first couple of years. BRM might have been in a better position to supply, despite higher cost. Or maybe because ROH were subsidising anyway?

People still around who should know the answers to these questions... I'd think Ken Gregory, Jack Brabham (surely he was wooed by BRM as he went privateering... and anyway, he was building cars with them fitted, he'd have some idea of what was going on at the time), Ron Tauranac for that matter, who else?

[bradbury west]

Quote

Originally posted by Roger Clark

In 1962 an FWMV cost £3,000. In the winter of 62-63, following Climax's threatened withdrawal, the British accessory manufacturers agreed to pay a subsidy to the constructors to enable them to pay a more economic price to Climax. Following this, the price rose to £5,000.

I'm not sure about the BRM being more expensive; there were more private entries using the Bourne engine. Presumably, they didn't receive the subsidy.

Further to Roger's note above, looking at Wally Hassan's book, he says that the FWMV was £3k but the teams thought it expensive!! after the production line FPF at £2.25k. He details that there was no question of Climax going into a production mode for these engines, since all the GP engines were looked after by Harry Spears' department at Widdrington Road, so there was a natural limit to the build capability.

By August 62 they had assembled 16 engines for sale, holding onto the first two, from 61, for development work

"We tried to be fair and reasonable in regard to fees, and for the inevitable repairs and rebuilds"

Updating kits were offered costing more than £1000. "In the winter of 62/63 , when we offered Lucas FI, short stroke cranks, revised bore deatils, new pistons/liners we did a package at £3000." therfe was also the offer of a later 4 valve head at a further £2000 , if and when produced. All-new engines were £5000 in 63 and 64. The proposal was that 4valev engines would be sold in 64 at £5000 but that never came about as the two produced were only loaned to Lotus and Brabham.

Clearly the whole thing was done as a subsidised operation. Remember the stories of the "costs" of the uprating of the FPF for Moss and Brabham in the 50s taking them upto 1.9 and 2 litres. ?

The thing which always fascinated me about engines/costs in those days was how Robin Widdows and Willie Green came to select and source a 1 litre 4 pot BRM, one bank of the V8, to race in clubbies in their Brabham? and Ginetta G12 in 65/66. Just how much were those motors and how did the deal come about?

Roger Lund.

[ian senior]

An article in The Motor of 13 February 1963 tells all about BRM plans for the forthcoming season and sheds some light on the price of their F1 engines. BRM planned to produce ten V8 engines for sale that year, with firm orders for eight of them. The engines less carbs, ignition or fuel injection cost £4000, adding Lucas injection (with another claimed 8-10 bhp) put the price up to nearly £5000 for the complete unit..