44 replies to this topic

[cosworth bdg]

Should these type of events be allowed on public roads , after what happened outside of HOBART yesterday at TARGA TASMANIA.

[LB]

what happened?

[mini696]

Yes... It is motorsport... The risks are known.

[A Wheel Nut]

A Mini Cooper left the road and hit three spectators.

The irony is that the police officer that the media spoke to about this was Sgt Cooper.

[Calorus]

Yeah, really don't be stupid, you don't go and stand by the side of a rally course and not understand the dangers. I say, "Hey, that's life".

You'll be able to find me in the rain at the (RAC) Rally GB.

[LB]

Ok just googled it - moment of consternation because my Dad is in Tas at the moment.

I take it you are referring to the 3 spectators and the driver that are in serious conditionafter an accident.

well

Much as I have sympathy for them and I hope they all make a full recovery I hope this doesn't affect the targa at all. I've driven the route (more or less) and its some fantastic roads with some fantastic cars tackling them and I hope it continues for as long as we have petrol.

Back in the old days Motor racing tickets used to have a warning on the back - Motor racing is dangerous to spectate or take part in such events do so at their own risk (paraphrased) and that basically says it all it IS dangerous on both sides of the fence I've seen people die before my eyes at an event and at the same time nearly kill a few in the stands. Trust me its something you don't want to see however I go back and always will because like most of us i have petrol flowing through my veins, so do the competitors. To spectate or participate you are doing so of your own free will, something that in todays litigeous society seems a forgotten concept.

[Calorus]

Originally posted by LB
Ok just googled it - moment of consternation because my Dad is in Tas at the moment.

I take it you are referring to the 3 spectators and the driver that are in serious conditionafter an accident.

well

Much as I have sympathy for them and I hope they all make a full recovery I hope this doesn't affect the targa at all. I've driven the route (more or less) and its some fantastic roads with some fantastic cars tackling them and I hope it continues for as long as we have petrol.

Back in the old days Motor racing tickets used to have a warning on the back - Motor racing is dangerous to spectate or take part in such events do so at their own risk (paraphrased) and that basically says it all it IS dangerous on both sides of the fence I've seen people die before my eyes at an event and at the same time nearly kill a few in the stands. Trust me its something you don't want to see however I go back and always will because like most of us i have petrol flowing through my veins, so do the competitors. To spectate or participate you are doing so of your own free will, something that in todays litigeous society seems a forgotten concept.

+ It's still written on the tickets and the fences, but US rules as adopted by the world argue you have no right to risk your own skin, for ANYTHING.

[Calorus]

Actually, the only way to really protect motorsport is to have it reclassified as Sado-Masochistic Euthenasia.

And I'll still go.

[LB]

Originally posted by Calorus
Actually, the only way to really protect motorsport is to have it reclassified as Sado-Masochistic Euthenasia.

And I'll still go.

damn that sounds kinky

[cosworth bdg]

When you have TARGA & C.A.M.S. officials with **** for brains allowing spectators to stand and view the corner on the outside of corner ,right in the line of competeing vehicles ,you have a recipe for disaster ,of which happened yesterday....

[LB]

Originally posted by Calorus




+ It's still written on the tickets and the fences, but US rules as adopted by the world argue you have no right to risk your own skin, for ANYTHING.

its not - i noticed It wasn'y on my Brit GP tickets as of a few years ago least not that I noticed, I don't have any to hand, and it hasn't been on my knockhill tickets for a long while. Thanks for the 's though

[Calorus]

Originally posted by cosworth bdg
When you have TARGA & C.A.M.S. officials with **** for brains allowing spectators to stand and view the corner on the outside of corner ,right in the line of competeing vehicles ,you have a recipe for disaster ,of which happened yesterday....

"Allowing"??

If a spectator wants to stand somewhere bloody stupid, let them. They risk their own lives not anyone elses.

[Calorus]

Originally posted by LB


its not - i noticed It wasn'y on my Brit GP tickets as of a few years ago least not that I noticed, I don't have any to hand, and it hasn't been on my knockhill tickets for a long while. Thanks for the 's though

Ah, it's now been "sanitised" then, i have it on my last "Snotty-town" tickets, though.

[LB]

Originally posted by cosworth bdg
When you have TARGA & C.A.M.S. officials with **** for brains allowing spectators to stand and view the corner on the outside of corner ,right in the line of competeing vehicles ,you have a recipe for disaster ,of which happened yesterday....

Its ok you can say **** its a free society.

and I'm about to so thank god.

If you stand on the outside of a hot racing corner, directly in line with possibly going off points then basically Darwin is very much in action. Its called common ****ing sense something again that has disappeared in courts....

Its a bit like that Dragster crash in Turkey ( if you have seen it) a car went off at 200 plus mph - there was no barrier. Cue low flying spectators and multiple deaths, Now call me a coward but having a little bit of nouce I feel that standing next to a dragstrip with no barriers between you and the cars is borderline suicidal. So is standing in what is basically a run off area.

[Nasty McBastard]

they make it pretty clear in signs, and in the targa 'official' guide you buy when trying to nut out good viewing spots etc, where you shouldnt be standing to watch targa....just another case of common sence not kicking in.

in a way im surprised targa is still going...seems like every 2nd year some driver gets killed wrapping himself around a telegraph pole, but this is the first thing i can think of with spectators.

there was a rally near hobart a few years ago where that footage everone must have seen by now was caught....the car spearing off the road and collecting a guy there filming for tv.

maybe the stereotype about tasmanians is kind true.

[Calorus]

Originally posted by Nasty McBastard
they make it pretty clear in signs, and in the targa 'official' guide you buy when trying to nut out good viewing spots etc, where you shouldnt be standing to watch targa....just another case of common sence not kicking in.

in a way im surprised targa is still going...seems like every 2nd year some driver gets killed wrapping himself around a telegraph pole, but this is the first thing i can think of with spectators.

there was a rally near hobart a few years ago where that footage everone must have seen by now was caught....the car spearing off the road and collecting a guy there filming for tv.

maybe the stereotype about tasmanians is kind true.

Now this is the ONLY time there can be any query. If you have someone who does want to be there contracted into standing somewhere stupid, that's a different story, altogether.

But the fact of the matter is that (like many of us) camermen are in it for the love of the sport, and as such would never want to be anywhere else.

I say let freedom rule and let us all be judged by commons sense. For anyone not familiar with with the term Darwin Awards, I recommend you google it.

[repcobrabham]

Originally posted by cosworth bdg
Should these type of events be allowed on public roads

where else would you hold them? everything from WRC to vintage / classic jaunts, and plenty in between (hillclimbs, street circuits etc) are staged on public roads

of course we don't know the full story about this yet - dangerous driving, mechanical failure, reckless spectating - but right now i can't imagine ever banning events on public roads

motor racing is potentially deadly: perhaps not as much as it used to be, but it still is

[A Wheel Nut]

Shouldn't it be the event organisers responsibility to make sure spectators are unable to access potentially unsafe areas? If it were left to spectator discretion I imagine at least a few people would stand on the apex at Eau Rogue just to see the purdy cars up close as they go past really fast.

[crYnOid]

From this pic you can see the corner this happened at. The Mini clipped the small pine rail just before the tree and went straight ahead. The car went straight into the run off area that you can see. Spectators just happen to be sitting there. Not a very bright place to be as every year at that corner cars lock up their brakes because the corner comes up on you faster than you think.

The report that I have seen on the spectators that were hit was that one guy isn't to bad, another I know nothing about, but the guy who was trapped under the Mini is in a bad way. Both his legs, pelvis,6 ribs are broken or cracked. Also got part of the chair he was sitting in through his leg. This guy was also a former Targa Tas official, and should have known better IMO.

[Calorus]

Originally posted by A Wheel Nut
Shouldn't it be the event organisers responsibility to make sure spectators are unable to access potentially unsafe areas? If it were left to spectator discretion I imagine at least a few people would stand on the apex at Eau Rogue just to see the purdy cars up close as they go past really fast.

I geniuinely things there should be "Red Zones" so you know you're in a dangerous position, and nothing more. If you don't know the course, I can perceive some danger, but people should be allow to be where hey want, as long as they aren't a danger to anyone else.

[Dolph]

If people do not care about their own health, then I see no reason to worry about them myself. Grown men should be able to make correct decisions.

[PassWind]

Originally posted by A Wheel Nut
Shouldn't it be the event organisers responsibility to make sure spectators are unable to access potentially unsafe areas? If it were left to spectator discretion I imagine at least a few people would stand on the apex at Eau Rogue just to see the purdy cars up close as they go past really fast.

Natural Selection at work tis all, if people were allowed to think more for themselve we would remove a lot of the stupid. Now I feel sorry for anyone who gets hurt, but I do also acknowledge their own contribution to their plight. It must be recognised less this type of racing get outlawed.

Looking at the photo its a rather ordinary choice of spot.

[repcobrabham]

Originally posted by PassWind
Looking at the photo its a rather ordinary choice of spot.

a gamble ... that they lost

[Calorus]

Too true.

I'd have loved to have been in that tree, though.

And something had happened to me - it'd be my own fault.

"Are we not masters of our own destinies?"

[Vitesse2]

I'm not familiar wth the Targa, but I'd be surprised if the field wasn't preceded by officials in a course car whose job would be to ensure that spectators were not in dangerous areas. If that's the case, then either the officials were negligent or the spectators chose to ignore the advice.

IIRC a couple of spectators who were killed during a rally in Belgium a few years ago were standing in a prohibited area and had been ordered to move by marshals. You can't legislate for stupidity: Darwin at work indeed.

But sooner or later there's going to be a big disaster on a rally, probably in Greece, Cyprus or Portugal where the spectators seem to have some sort of death wish and line the course so closely that they can touch the cars.

[LB]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
But sooner or later there's going to be a big disaster on a rally, probably in Greece, Cyprus or Portugal where the spectators seem to have some sort of death wish and line the course so closely that they can touch the cars.

They haven't done that for a while actually.

[Option1]

Originally posted by Calorus


I geniuinely things there should be "Red Zones" so you know you're in a dangerous position, and nothing more. If you don't know the course, I can perceive some danger, but people should be allow to be where hey want, as long as they aren't a danger to anyone else.

That's moronic as perfectly illustrated by the Targa example. You may not be worried by the spectators being hurt, but the driver has also been injured in the incident.

Of course the Targa should go on, but there's no way people should be "allowed to be where they want". Sometimes in life and civilised society you have rules to prevent people hurting themselves. Frankly, I don't see what's wrong with that.

Neil

[smithy]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
I'm not familiar wth the Targa, but I'd be surprised if the field wasn't preceded by officials in a course car whose job would be to ensure that spectators were not in dangerous areas. If that's the case, then either the officials were negligent or the spectators chose to ignore the advice.

According to the news report I heard, the spectators were in an approved spot but there was no safety barrier. If that's true, then I hope the officials get their just desserts because that was criminal. As everyone has said, cars at speed with spectators on the outside of the corner is just plain stupid.

[PassWind]

Originally posted by smithy
According to the news report I heard, the spectators were in an approved spot but there was no safety barrier. If that's true, then I hope the officials get their just desserts because that was criminal. As everyone has said, cars at speed with spectators on the outside of the corner is just plain stupid.

http://www.news.com....36-1244,00.html


This story pretty well covers it. Driver error mixed accident mixed with people not really thinking it all through mixed with Motor Sports can be dangerous.

Easiest way not to get hurt is not go. Go, then accept the risks involved if you feel at risk leave, or move, if not throw your dice see what happens 9999 times out of 10000 you will have a blast. It only takes one accident to ruin a good day. If the car had not lost control, there would be nothing to talk about except the racing.

Accidents do happen, no one involved certainly intended the result. I don't think the position at the end of the turn is safe, but I say that in hindsight which is a wonderful thing. Being a spectator you make a pretty loose leap of faith that drivers will control their car within a small performance envelope, thats a pretty big personal call. Organisers are doing the same, its risky. Maybe bigger than some would accept.

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by PassWind




http://www.news.com....36-1244,00.html


This story pretty well covers it. Driver error mixed accident mixed with people not really thinking it all through mixed with Motor Sports can be dangerous.

Easiest way not to get hurt is not go. Go, then accept the risks involved if you feel at risk leave, or move, if not throw your dice see what happens 9999 times out of 10000 you will have a blast. It only takes one accident to ruin a good day. If the car had not lost control, there would be nothing to talk about except the racing.

Accidents do happen, no one involved certainly intended the result. I don't think the position at the end of the turn is safe, but I say that in hindsight which is a wonderful thing. Being a spectator you make a pretty loose leap of faith that drivers will control their car within a small performance envelope, thats a pretty big personal call. Organisers are doing the same, its risky. Maybe bigger than some would accept.

I accept what you are saying ,but the organisers [ OCTAGON]

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by PassWind




http://www.news.com....36-1244,00.html


This story pretty well covers it. Driver error mixed accident mixed with people not really thinking it all through mixed with Motor Sports can be dangerous.

Easiest way not to get hurt is not go. Go, then accept the risks involved if you feel at risk leave, or move, if not throw your dice see what happens 9999 times out of 10000 you will have a blast. It only takes one accident to ruin a good day. If the car had not lost control, there would be nothing to talk about except the racing.

Accidents do happen, no one involved certainly intended the result. I don't think the position at the end of the turn is safe, but I say that in hindsight which is a wonderful thing. Being a spectator you make a pretty loose leap of faith that drivers will control their car within a small performance envelope, thats a pretty big personal call. Organisers are doing the same, its risky. Maybe bigger than some would accept.

I accept what you are saying ,but the organisers [OCTAGON ] and C.A.M.S . are not capable of investigating the accident cause and ongoing consequences what ever whos fault it is or was..

[Calorus]

Originally posted by smithy
According to the news report I heard, the spectators were in an approved spot but there was no safety barrier. If that's true, then I hope the officials get their just desserts because that was criminal. As everyone has said, cars at speed with spectators on the outside of the corner is just plain stupid.

IT'S a Rally, Of course there were no safety barrirs. Can you imagine the RAC if it had to be barriered?

Bye Bye WRC, bye bye All rally championships, bye bye Manx TT...

[Calorus]

Originally posted by cosworth bdg
I accept what you are saying ,but the organisers [ OCTAGON]

Unless you're incapable of thinking for yourself, what have the organisers got to do with it?

Where the spectators taken out, put on the corners and told to stand there or on pain of death?

If you don't want to experience the thrill watch highlights: Better coverage and 0% ris of getting taken out in any of the accidents. (But you'd be wise to put on a pair of mittens, some goggles, and to get your mum to hide anything with sharp edges, just to be on the safe side.)

[smithy]

Originally posted by Calorus


IT'S a Rally, Of course there were no safety barrirs. Can you imagine the RAC if it had to be barriered?

Bye Bye WRC, bye bye All rally championships, bye bye Manx TT...

It's in the Hobart Domain (central park), not the middle of the countryside.

The organisors know that they get amongst the biggest crowd for this section. Even those water filled plastic barriers would have been better than nothing, without being too much of an obstruction.

I accept that for most of the section's it's impracticle to put in barriers and I have just returned from Melbourne F1 where I lamented the 12 foot high fence in the way of everything. But in the centre of the city with large crowds there should have been something better than a plastic tape.

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by smithy
It's in the Hobart Domain (central park), not the middle of the countryside.

The organisors know that they get amongst the biggest crowd for this section. Even those water filled plastic barriers would have been better than nothing, without being too much of an obstruction.

I accept that for most of the section's it's impracticle to put in barriers and I have just returned from Melbourne F1 where I lamented the 12 foot high fence in the way of everything. But in the centre of the city with large crowds there should have been something better than a plastic tape.

Thank you somebody is reading what is being said here on this subject of public safety.

[repcobrabham]

Originally posted by cosworth bdg
Thank you somebody is reading what is being said here on this subject of public safety.

perhaps, but it's worth noting that you said nothing of the sort. putting the situation into context (thanks smithy ) and rambling about banning events on public roads / cussing organisers are two very different things.

FWIW i agree that more care should have been taken in securing that corner and/or keeping spectators out of critical range.

[Calorus]

Originally posted by cosworth bdg
Thank you somebody is reading what is being said here on this subject of public safety.

But it's not public safety!

It's the safety of those who know the risks they're taking.

[PassWind]

http://www.targa.org...ation/index.php



Actually upon review I cannot see how spectators if they had read the link which is pretty exlpicit in explanation with Diagrams, how they would be in danger except in that they ignored the safety advice contained within the link. Even has diagrams of how to make a judgement of a dangerous area.

Without seeing the acutal accident its hard to say but using the diagrams in the safety guide and the map here http://www.targa.org...smap/HOBART.JPG you can see where they should not have been. There are a few precautions that they ignored like sitting down etc.

Have a read pretty detailed and what exactly was the color of the tape they were sitting behind. What does a buffer zone mean, to me it means a buffer zone for cars not spectators any interesting stuff.

[Calorus]

Exactly, inform people. If they make mistakes of judgement, then it's their responsibility.

This is exactly what sucked all of the atmosphere of old out of F1 in the first place.

[Nasty McBastard]

ive seen plenty of targa stages that are in and around various towns etc.

while the longer stages in the middle of nowhere would be hard to patrol, generally those shorter ones in towns ARE pretty well 'marshalled' and do have quite a few officials wandering about making sure people arent in stupid places.

To be honest, im not exactly sure what stage that accident happened on, but going by that pic it looks like maybe one of the ones in/around the domain in hobart? if it is, id be surprised that this wasnt reasonably well patrolled

edit: So it WAS the domain...i missed smithys post.

unless those spectators had only just got there, id be very surprised if at some point an official hadnt seen them.

[LB]

Originally posted by Nasty McBastard
in a way im surprised targa is still going...seems like every 2nd year some driver gets killed wrapping himself around a telegraph pole, but this is the first thing i can think of with spectators.

I thought ony one driver had died on the Targa back in 1996 at Rianna

[Mat]

Originally posted by LB


I thought ony one driver had died on the Targa back in 1996 at Rianna

Correct. Only one competitor (it was the navigator) has died at Targa.

[Mat]

Go to this link for a video of the incident. http://www.abc.net.a...04/s1626609.htm

[Mat]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
I'm not familiar wth the Targa, but I'd be surprised if the field wasn't preceded by officials in a course car whose job would be to ensure that spectators were not in dangerous areas. If that's the case, then either the officials were negligent or the spectators chose to ignore the advice.

Thats exactly what happens.

There is a 00 car (course car) which precedes the field and gives the all clear. A 0 car then goes through at speed for a final check before competitors are allowed onto the stage.

I have just got back from the Targa Tasmania and the word is that the 00 car stopped at the hairpin and told the spectators to move away from the area. The 00 car then moved on to complete the stage, but obviously the spectators moved back into their position at the hairpin.

Now while that is obviously a very stupid thing to do, there are very clear regulations in place to stop something like this happening.

If a dangerous area is identified, it will either have water barriers placed or, as in this situation, taped off so the spectators do not stand in the section. This would be safer than barriers in this area, as there is plenty of room for run off there.

The biggest problem here is that there should have been a spectator marshal. The reason there was not one there will come out in the investigation.

[Calorus]

Why on earth should grown adults bee assigned ANOTHER grown adult for their safety?

If they'd been told not to be there, then if any action was taken it should be against the spectators for tresspassing. As I see it, however they knew the risk (esp. if they'd been told explicitly ) and happened to take a gamble which this time, didn't really pay off. Shame, but that's the way the cookie crumbles, so to speak.