22 replies to this topic

[MCh000]

I'm still not sure if Villneuve became champion in fair
way, I mean technicaly, according regulations.

Villneuve was disqualified from Japan GP, but Williams
wrote appellation and he was allowed to start. That meant
that if appellation is rejected he would miss Jerez,
otherwise he's allowed to race in Jerez. I mean, that
disqualification means THAT YOU DON'T PARTICIPATE IN ONE
RACE. But what happend was very strange. Villneuve racing
in Japan, and in Jerez. In Japan he enters circuit just
to make a difficult life for Schumacher, I think we
all remember that procession in the beginning of the
race, when Villneuve was very enthusiasting about to let
by anyone if his name isn't Schumacher. So he was
influencing race results, he participated in the
race, but after the race Williams withdrawed
appellation, "lost points from Japan", and had a
clear way to participate in Jerez.

Just to give you a comparison. In one year, when
Schumacher was in benneton he was disqualified
from German GP, but he wanted to participate at home
Gp and just for the sake of that Benneton wrote
an appellation. However he had a failure at that race
and had to accept consequenses: no points in the current
event and no participation in the next GP. That is
normal and logical.

But in the case with Villneuve its strange and
unlogical.
I understand that FIA wants to bring the
tension to the very last GP, but that's unfair
and Schumacher not just didn't win championship,
but also lost all his points in Jerez where Villneuve
had in fact to watch GP from tribunes and admit
he has lost champoinship.

[tifosi]

How dare you suggest that the FIA has ever made a decision that was anything but 100% beneficial to Michael Schumacher. You run the risk of getting banned from this BB. Remeber EVERY decision ever made by the FIA 100% totally supports Michael Scumacher in each and Every case.

[Sulla]

Williams withdrew the appeal after the race, using a technicality to "have it both ways". As far as I remember Benetton never withdrew the appeal, though I could be wrong.

[JayWay]

I don't think even the stupidest Schumy fan would want to see the F1 championship decided in a court room and not on the track. Are you that desperate for him to win?

[TBone]

IMHO, I think that a lot of FIA decisions are aimed at keeping the tension alive all the way to the end of the season (TV ratings for Suzuka and Jerez were huge that year). I don't think that JV should have been allowed to race in Suzuka to begin with ... But technically, I don't think that we can prove a TV-ratings based decision: Williams appealed, so JV was allowed to race in Suzuka, but they withdrew the appeal and JV was not suspended for Jerez but for Suzuka.

[Wishbone]

tifosi,

nope, I think you'll find that every decision the FIA has ever made has been with the intent of bringing the championship down to the last race. He's had the help the last few years but when he was dominating damon it was him who got hit with the race bans and coincidentally made the last race that year the decider.

In fact, when was the last year that the title was not decided at the last race?

[doohanOK]

Villeneuve would have won as he did in Jerez, because Michael had a problem with his car. He slowed some 2 seconds in a lap within an instant, and Villeneuve made the winning pass, which deservedly won him the championship.

regards,
doohanOK.

[doohanOK]

I would say 1995, if not, 1993.

regards,
doohanOK.

[Sulla]

Yep,

In the last stint MS's tires went off, as usual. I know, I know, it was a bad set of rubber.

[Force Ten]

"In the last stint MS's tires went off, as usual"

Well, it kinda says a lot, don't you think? The remark "as usual" especially? I don't know about you but it does sometimes make me wonder why on such a frequent basis do MS's tires wear off? They wore off at Hungary '97, at Nürnburgring '98, now Spa '00. I am sure that there are more examples, but there has to be more than just rubber...
I, for instance, am pretty sure that the guydriving a car has also something to do with the tyre wear.

[Sulla]

Force 10

Exactly!

[mtl'78]

MCH000, what you fail to realize is that the FIA banning JV in the 1st place was to ENSURE a tight finish. JV had just won Austria and Nurburgring, and he had a 10 point lead. The infraction he was given was for speeding past a yellow flag in practice. What made this even more OBVIOUS, is that at the time, JV was in the middle of 7 OTHER DRIVERS, WHO ALL MADE THE SAME INFRACTION. In that group was HHF, EI, MS and Hill, so not rookies exactly... JV was singled out because of a similar infraction at Brazil, some 8 months earlier...

It was kind of like getting a speeding ticket in the middle of traffic, cars ahead, cars behind, but you get the penalty. Not to mention the shameful actions of the FIA the day before the Canadian GP, having him do a back and fowrth to Paris to explain his opinion that slicks were better than grooves! Not that any of this will affect the opinion of the JV haters, but at least hate him with the record straight.;)

[MCh000]

You allways end at the same point:
who has better car, whose rubber
is worn, are you desperate for him
to win.
And thus forget the argument or idea.

Look:
The driver (any) is disqualified from race,
writes an appellation, races, gets 2
points, thinks: 2 points are not so
much, but the next race I'll try better,
withdraws appellation, and losts
2 points (know he nows exactly that he
lost only 2 points by disqualification),
and races the next race.
Disqualification loses its sence, becomes
something trivial.

And if all things were telling that
Villneuve would any way win, why withdraw
the appellation ?

[FX]

This is very simple - if Ferrari car that MS was driving didn't have a problem, MS would've been the champion!
He was in front of JV, had a decent lead, his engine starts overheating, and there goes WDC.
So I think that WDC belonged to MS but certainly not to Ferrari.

[Frans MSH]

like Tifosi said:

Remeber EVERY decision ever made by the FIA 100% totally supports Michael Scumacher in each and Every case.

That's treu,

They took Villeneuve's points, so Schumacher could go AS LEADER INTO THE LAST RACE, Just like in Adelaide 1994, [ never seen that one also? ]

And it was a copy, with a "slightly-to-the-right" swerving car........................

dirty ****ing dirty was that!


.dUh!!!!!


Villeneuve became champ that season, because Schumacher WAS NO REAL MATCH for him, AND because God Excists!!!!!! That's all........ .......... [p][Edited by Frans MSH on 08-30-2000]

[tifosi]

FX,
By your reasoning we could say that Marc Gene is really the 2000 WDC because it is Minardi that has given him a crap car.

I am a Ferrari fan first and formeost and nothing hurt as much recently as seeing Villenueve get by Schumacher. IMHO if MS had just kept his line he would have have immediately repassed JV. But the bottom line is JV got by and Schumacher panicked and lost. Villeneuve therefore deserved to win the WDC and anybody who had been on this BB for any length of time can tell you I am not a JV fan.

In F1 the guy who finishes with the most points deserves to win the WDC. Neither us fans nor the drivers can do anything about FIA decisions short of quit supporting F1, and I don't think any of us are willing to do that.

ANyway bottom line is the season went to the final race and it was between JV and MS. Whoever won the race would be the WDC. JV won, he deserved it. MS lost, as he did in 98, as he almost did in 95. The fact that Ferrari delivered MS to the final race with a chance to win the WDC shows that the car was enough to win, otherwise he wouldn't have been that close. Does MS always need a dominate 94 type situation to win?

[G-R]

Originally posted by Frans MSH

Just like in Adelaide 1997, [ never seen that one also? ]

[/B]

In the vaine of Dr Evil "Riiiiiiiiiight"

[FX]

"IMHO if MS had just kept his line he would have have
immediately repassed JV. But the bottom line is JV got by and Schumacher panicked and lost."

Not really, as his car had a problem! From your post I can see that you didn't know that. Check out the lap times, and see how many seconds MS lost over just one lap.

If JV, Mika, or David or any other driver came into the last race leading in points and qualified first, and lead the last and most important race of the season and then lost because of the car problem, then I'd say that that guy deserved the win except the car was no good!

I feel the same way about Hill in that arrows in Hungary, or Fisichella way back when he was leading a race in his first season for Jordan and had a puncture (Except WDC was not in question)...

[Frans MSH]

FX, there WAS a problem in his Ferrari yeah, back in Jerez 97, yep you're totally right...

TREU! Because what was WRONG was his big fat ASS to BE THERE ANYWAY!!!!!!!

The problem with the Ferrari was Schumacher himself! He disrespected the sport in the red harnas...... A former respectfull RACE team, what it ONCE was.....

Once, once, a long long time ago........



Champion of 1997: Jacques Villeneuve. Simple, easy and the only right one....

[tifosi]

FX,

Fine, then Hill is the true 95 champion because Michael crashed with the leading car, (not the car's fault) and then ran smack into Hill.

NOTE TO EVERYONE : Don't start this into a 500 reply post on whose fault the accident was, my point is the guy that wins deserves to win.

I'm sure we can find a race in 97 where Villenueve's car let him down and MS picked up 10 points. To just go to the last race and say Ferrari blew it for Michael is ridiculous. How many times did Williams 'blow-it" for JV that season.
If it weren't for that crappy McClaren, Mika would have at least 18-30 more points and be running away with the WDC this year.


God I can't believe I defended JV twice in one thread. I have to say that the with his recent whining comments thoough, DC is quickly surpassing JV as the biggest a**hole in F1 today.

[Frans MSH]

ok wait ehm.......

Fine, then Hill is the true 95 champion because Michael crashed with the leading car, (not the car's fault) and then ran smack into Hill.

Do you have such Sliders sliding device? .... Wow, givme one!

We on this dimension we had such accident as well, where happened excacly the same as you describe! On what coordinate is THIS dimension are in, [ our default setting on the device of course! ] Only it happened in our year of history 1994. Now we are in 2000, how are you calculating Tifosi? hmmmmmmm, cool man! Send me one!

Oh please tell me, did they used the same punishement as in 1997? Jerez? Exclusion of the championship, having 0 points in FIA drivers worldchampionship 1997?

No no no, and please don't even think about a Schumi-happy end on this story as well, because THEN Ferrari had a drivers worldchampion I think. [ nightmare ]

[FX]

tifosi,

That same year Michael was banned from THREE races! That was ridiculous! And it had all to do with FIA wanting a tight race to the end of the season. (remember MS got banned because when he spun out in Spa his wooden plank at the bottom got thinner in one place by 1 or two mm). So even if DH won in the last race, MS was the one who clearly deserved it.

However, if your question is - if DH was leading during the last race (and MS didn't have the 3 race ban) and then MS punted him out, I'd say that DH would've deserved that WDC. But he didn't.

Imagine if Mika was banned this year for three races because of the missing seal! He cerainly wouldn't remove it himself to get DQed. And MS certainly wouldn't drive with a thinner wooden plank or lower setup so that he'd get DQed.

Point is - no current team screwed up as many times in critical situations (like last and defining race of the season) as Ferrari! I can't even start imagining Williams or McLaren waiting forever to bring dry ice to the track with a delayed start; or their cars giving up a ghost in the last race; or their mechanics looking for a fourth tire to put on the car...

[AD]

MS was the deserving champion that year. You can see that the Williams was a country mile faster than anyone else(look at how much better Frentzen did than Irvine), and so in that respect MS did very well to get 5 wins and his victories in Monaco and Spa were some of the best drives of all time. On the other hand how many times that year did JV screw up in such a dominant car. If JV had lost in '97 he would not be a quarter as highly rated as he is now.