45 replies to this topic

[doohanOK]

I was reading on wikipedia.org that FA's full name is Fernando Alonso Diaz.

"......Born Fernando Alonso Díaz (his full name includes his mother's maiden name as is Spanish custom)".

So does that means his actual name is Fernando Diaz, but he goes racing by the name Fernando Alonso? (and yes, I read the link on wikipedia about Spanish/Iberian names) - but just kinda curious.

regards,
doohanOK.

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Originally posted by doohanOK


So does that means his actual name is Fernando Diaz

no

[kenny]

Well,

Ayrton Senna Da Silva

[prty]

Here in Spain we have a "name" and then two "surnames" (I think it was said like that ). The first name is the first name of the father, and the second one is the first one of the mother. So Fernando is the name his parents chose, his dad is called "whatever Alonso whatever" and his mom "whatever Diaz whatever". Hope I explained it well, I think it's not like this in a lot of countries

[mastropiero]

No, it´s quite the oposite. I mean name is "nombre" and surname is "apellido".

In Spain we have our name, which would be Fernando in FA´s case, Michael in MS´s one or Stefan in mine. Then comes the first and the second surname. The first surname is the father´s one, so that´s where Fernando Alonso comes from. The second surname is the mother´s maiden name, so Diaz is Fernando Alonso´s mother surname, hence FA becomes Fernando Alonso Diaz.

Spain is one of the few countries where women don´t lose their maiden surname either, so even after married FA´s parents are still Mr. "Whatever" Alonso and Mrs. "Whatever" Diaz.

[prty]

Originally posted by mastropiero
No, it´s quite the oposite. I mean name is "nombre" and surname is "apellido".

Ahh thanks. Actually when I was like 10 they taught me that usually name = nombre, but when you put your personal data into something it was surname = nombre and name = apellido. It always sounded a little fishy to me and forgot to check it out ;)

[mastropiero]

Originally posted by prty


Ahh thanks. Actually when I was like 10 they taught me that usually name = nombre, but when you put your personal data into something it was surname = nombre and name = apellido. It always sounded a little fishy to me and forgot to check it out ;)

Sounds a bit odd to me as well... I would asume that they wanted to teach you that when you put personal data you have to put first your surname, or apellido and THEN your name or nombre. Right now I can´t remember exactly, but I think that´s the way I had to fill in documents when living in the UK. Anyone cares to elighten us?

[miniman]

Originally posted by prty
Here in Spain we have a "name" and then two "surnames" (I think it was said like that ). The first name is the first name of the father, and the second one is the first one of the mother. So Fernando is the name his parents chose, his dad is called "whatever Alonso whatever" and his mom "whatever Diaz whatever". Hope I explained it well, I think it's not like this in a lot of countries

On the other side of the Iberian Peninsula (Portugal) the naming convention is the opposite. Name, mother's surname, father's surname. I mention it because it was touched upon in the first post.

[mastropiero]

That´s right, I forgot you guys are a matriarchy in that aspect. A portuguese friend of mine told me about it many years ago, I had forgoten about it.

[Zmeej]

mastropiero

In Spain we have our name, which would be Fernando in FA´s case, Michael in MS´s one or Stefan in mine. Then comes the first and the second surname. The first surname is the father´s one, so that´s where Fernando Alonso comes from. The second surname is the mother´s maiden name, so Diaz is Fernando Alonso´s mother surname, hence FA becomes Fernando Alonso Diaz.

Never knew that, that's very cool.

Thanks for the info.

[mastropiero]

My pleasure.

;)

[McHulme]

Originally posted by mastropiero
No, it´s quite the oposite. I mean name is "nombre" and surname is "apellido".

In Spain we have our name, which would be Fernando in FA´s case, Michael in MS´s one or Stefan in mine. Then comes the first and the second surname. The first surname is the father´s one, so that´s where Fernando Alonso comes from. The second surname is the mother´s maiden name, so Diaz is Fernando Alonso´s mother surname, hence FA becomes Fernando Alonso Diaz.

Spain is one of the few countries where women don´t lose their maiden surname either, so even after married FA´s parents are still Mr. "Whatever" Alonso and Mrs. "Whatever" Diaz.

This is fascinating. The missing part though, is which of the surnames you choose for your children? I assume (becuase its the simplest thing?) that the second surname is just dropped here, right? So Fernando's mother's full name is Mrs "Whatever" Diaz "Whatever"? Does it differ between sons and daughters? I can imagine, for instance, using the matricidal surname for girls and the patricidal for boys, so Fernando may have a sister named Carmine "whatever" "whatever", where the whatevers are the second (matricidal) surnames of their parents. Of course, that might get confusing for outsiders ;-)

[mastropiero]

This is fascinating. The missing part though, is which of the surnames you choose for your children?

As you say, the second surname of both parents is dropped. Let´s say FA´s father is called Roberto Alonso Martinez and that his mom is called Angela Diaz Robles. As I said in a previous post, his mom keeps her surnames after married. When Fernando is born, he is called Fernando Alonso (first surname of his father) Diaz (first surname of his mother). That is how he will appear in any spanish official documents.

Does it differ between sons and daughters? I can imagine, for instance, using the matricidal surname for girls and the patricidal for boys, so Fernando may have a sister named Carmine "whatever" "whatever", where the whatevers are the second (matricidal) surnames of their parents.

Nope, no difference, as you say, it might get very confusing. Be it boy or girl, his/her name will be followed by his/her father´s first surname and then her mom´s first one.

[Gemini]

Originally posted by prty
Here in Spain we have a "name" and then two "surnames" (I think it was said like that ). The first name is the first name of the father, and the second one is the first one of the mother. So Fernando is the name his parents chose, his dad is called "whatever Alonso whatever" and his mom "whatever Diaz whatever". Hope I explained it well, I think it's not like this in a lot of countries

I think it's cool custom

[cupra]

Originally posted by Gemini


I think it's cool custom

it is, and it's the same in most, if not all, spanish speaking countries. It's a sort of way of recognising that you also have a mother!

in reality though, most people in practice only use their dad's surname and maybe the mother's surname initial (just as people usually don't use their middle names). But in identification documents (passport, id, driver's license) you would have both.

[LostProphet]

It's quite a cool thing, I think. Better than the awful double-barrelled surnames that people in the UK are giving themselves when they marry to try and make themselves sound posh
My ex girlfriend was from the Phillipines and they did it the other way around - the Father's surname was the surname, but the middle name was the mother's maiden name, but it was usually omitted or just entered as a single letter.

[rodlamas]

The drivers normally use the names according to their preferences.

For an example, Senna used "Ayrton da Silva" in his early Formula days. But as "Silva" is more common tha "Smith" in the USA and that "Muller" in Germany together, someone suggested he should use his mother's name.

Helio Castroneves was earlier called Helio Castro Neves. But he put his surnames together not be known as Helio Castro or Helio Neves.

Bruno Senna hadn't actually got Senna on his name. As he's son of Senna's sister, he was born as Bruno da Silva Lalli. But after what happened with Ayrton, the development of his career and the tragic death of his father (one year after Senna's on motorcycle accidente), he decided to change his full name to Bruno Senna da Silva Lalli.

Cheers ;)

[rodlamas]

Originally posted by LostProphet
It's quite a cool thing, I think. Better than the awful double-barrelled surnames that people in the UK are giving themselves when they marry to try and make themselves sound posh
My ex girlfriend was from the Phillipines and they did it the other way around - the Father's surname was the surname, but the middle name was the mother's maiden name, but it was usually omitted or just entered as a single letter.

It's like that when we get to portuguese x spanish.

On portuguese speaking countries, we have [FIRST NAME] [MOTHER´S FAMILY NAME] [ FATHER´S FAMILY NAME].

On spanish speaking countries, we have [FIRST NAME] [FATHER´S FAMILY NAME] [ MOTHER´S FAMILY NAME].

And as I am from Brazil and my father's family has an spanish origin, with all the given transitions, my last name (Lamas) used to be the family name from a woman a few generations ago.

Cheers ;)

[Calorus]

This about the most bullshit question in the history of the world.

The naming system is the single most arbitrary custom in human history.

We are each 50% our Mother and 50% our father which gives no inherent rights to naming conventions.

So other than in certain parts of Ireland, Norfolk, and New Zealand there is no logic to which name should prevail.

A name's only purpose is to ensure that everyone knows who is being referred to.

[McHulme]

Thanks mastropiero. As others have said, I think this is a very cool way to honour both your mother and father.

Calorus, its pretty obvious from the responses (mine included) that a lot of people didn't know how Spanaish and Portugese names "worked", so it may be a bullshit question from your perpective, but its been an educational thread from mine, and I'm glad doohanOK asked.

[Calorus]

Originally posted by McHulme
Thanks mastropiero. As others have said, I think this is a very cool way to honour both your mother and father.

Calorus, its pretty obvious from the responses (mine included) that a lot of people didn't know how Spanaish and Portugese names "worked", so it may be a bullshit question from your perpective, but its been an educational thread from mine, and I'm glad doohanOK asked.

I'll point out that the comment was aimed at the question rather than poster, and that the issue is that naming conventions are cultural, rather than Geographic. But the thing which riled me was the comment that one way might be right with the question

"Does that mean that his REAL name is Fernando Diaz"

This I think is
a) Patricentric
and
b) Inherently argues that there is more logic to the REAL way of doing things than anyone else's customs.

[mastropiero]

If you ask me I´d say that you´re stretching it a tiny bit too far, or that you´re seeking polemic because you have nothing else to do on a sunny afternoon but hey, whatever floats your boat!

[dujshebaev]

I think the spanish and portuguesee mode for call people is ideal.
You have in your full name a recognition for your father and your mother (and their respective ancents).
In a fully boys dinasty, your surname (family name) NEVER will be lost. If my surname is Bernier (for example), and i have a boy, my surname will be inherited for my child, inherited for their son, the son of my son...and I think it's beautiful that a surname could not be NEVER lost if you have sons.
I think, women never may lost their family names (surnames). It's better (in my oppinion, and in XXI century customes) to mantain a respect to your parents and ancents than to someone without your blood.
You will have for live a father who gives you a maidden surname, but you can be married hundreds of times...may you have hundred of surnames?

The only I preffer for portuguese mode is they puts the mother surname first...A gentleman question.

[Imolazilla]

Oh God! not another 'Nelson Piquet Souto Maior' argument!

[Get Sirius]

Originally posted by Calorus
This about the most bullshit question in the history of the world.

We are each 50% our Mother and 50% our father which gives no inherent rights to naming conventions.

Please explain. 50% of what?

[ReWind]

Originally posted by mastropiero
In Spain we have our name [...]. Then comes the first and the second surname. The first surname is the father´s one [...]. The second surname is the mother´s maiden name [...]

Originally posted by mastropiero
[...]the second surname of both parents is dropped.

But how do you explain that Luis Rodríguez Moya is known as Luis Moya, Pedro Martínez de la Rosa as Pedro de la Rosa and Leopoldo Perez de Villaamil as „Polo“ Villaamil?

And how does Luis Pèrez Sala Valls-Taberner become Luis Sala?

Do Spaniards have free choice of their „main“ surname (so they can go for their mother’s name if that suits them better than their father’s name)?

Or is the first surname of – say – Pedro de la Rosa’s children still „Martínez“ (regardless of the fact that Pedro doesn’t use his father’s first surname)?

[prty]

Originally posted by ReWind

But how do you explain that Luis Rodríguez Moya is known as Luis Moya, Pedro Martínez de la Rosa as Pedro de la Rosa and Leopoldo Perez de Villaamil as „Polo“ Villaamil?

And how does Luis Pèrez Sala Valls-Taberner become Luis Sala?

Do Spaniards have free choice of their „main“ surname (so they can go for their mother’s name if that suits them better than their father’s name)?

Or is the first surname of – say – Pedro de la Rosa’s children still „Martínez“ (regardless of the fact that Pedro doesn’t use his father’s first surname)?

Rodriguez or Martínez are extremely common surnames. Pedro and Luis extremely common names: Pedro Martinez or Luis Rodriguez would sound extremely dull in Spanish. I guess they pick their name plus the most unusual surname. They use it only to appear in media, etc, so Pedro's son first surname is still Martínez.

And then you have composed names, like "Miguel Ángel", where the name has 2 words, so the full name would be 4 words in total. Luis Pèrez Sala Valls-Taberner sounds too long for me too, maybe it's a composed name and a composed surname?

[Frans]

Like Farouk and Hassan Mahmoud, who'd turned out as Michael and Ralf Schumacher, hehe.?

slightly diffrent I guess, but hey...... what's in a name?

[Ross Stonefeld]

I know a Spaniard who goes by his first last name, not his second.

[turin]

Originally posted by cupra


it is, and it's the same in most, if not all, spanish speaking countries. It's a sort of way of recognising that you also have a mother!

Argentina does not do that. They emphasize the second "name", ala US. They drop the mother's maiden name.

Example : Diego Armando Maradona

In Chile, we have a mix of both. I have a first name, a middle name, and two last names. my initials are then PACM and that's they way it is shown on my passport.

Maybe because I am used to this, but I find it way better that women dropping her last name to get her husband's. And also I had a lot of trouble naming my kids, because they were born in the US (where my wife's last name doesn't count), but we will be going back to Chile (where it does). Their passport had to adjust to both conventions.


-p

[Deeq]

mastropiero
Zapatero is the PM last surname or Am I wrong?

So there is exception to the rule of dropping the last[rnaternal] rather than the first[paternal] surname..

[turin]

Originally posted by Deeq
mastropiero
Zapatero is the PM last surname or Am I wrong?

So there is exception to the rule of dropping the last[rnaternal] rather than the first[paternal] surname..

Sorry to hijack your post:
Again, he is "Rodriguez Zapatero". Rodriguez is far too common, and probably that is the reason he uses zapatero (or shoemaker or schumacher, if last names were allowed to be translated)

-p

[Deeq]

Originally posted by turin


Sorry to hijack your post:
Again, he is "Rodriguez Zapatero". Rodriguez is far too common, and probably that is the reason he uses zapatero (or shoemaker or schumacher, if last names were allowed to be translated)

-p

It really was not only meant for mastropiero but was toward to all Iberians - or Iberian aficionados - I only pointed to mastropiero because he was kind enough to inform us well all about this earlier, therefor nothing to apologise for m8. infact I thank you for the quick respons.

PS
I though Zapatero did it for emotional or political reasons this kind of takes the glory...eh

[4MEN]

If you don't have girls youl lose your surname. That's not pretty cool but that's the way it is.

The vice-president of the Spanish government is called Maria Teresa Fernandez De La Vega, but actually you could refer to her as Maite Fernandez, but that's less cool too ;)

[role]

Originally posted by 4MEN
If you don't have girls youl lose your surname. That's not pretty cool but that's the way it is.

The vice-president of the Spanish government is called Maria Teresa Fernandez De La Vega, but actually you could refer to her as Maite Fernandez, but that's less cool too ;)

I guess you mean if you do not have boys...

It is worth to note than now the law in Spain allows to use the mother's first name before the father's in the kids whole name when you register him/her.

My wife has a very uncommon last name and she was pressuring to put our first kid her last name first so the last name could continue into the future. Finally her brother had a son and the last name is safe (as long as my nephew has sons in the future).

[pio!pio!]

What if both the father and mother have the same surname? (ie a common one, they aren't related)

Say you have a Pedro Rodriguez da Silva, and a Maria Rodriguez Martinez.

Does the child then become Julio Rodriguez Rodriguez? And will he get teased for it?

[prty]

Originally posted by pio!pio!
What if both the father and mother have the same surname? (ie a common one, they aren't related)

Say you have a Pedro Rodriguez da Silva, and a Maria Rodriguez Martinez.

Does the child then become Julio Rodriguez Rodriguez? And will he get teased for it?

Of course
I got a friend who has an unusual surname repeated... so the incest jokes are mandatory

[mastropiero]

Originally posted by ReWind

But how do you explain that Luis Rodríguez Moya is known as Luis Moya, Pedro Martínez de la Rosa as Pedro de la Rosa and Leopoldo Perez de Villaamil as „Polo“ Villaamil?

And how does Luis Pèrez Sala Valls-Taberner become Luis Sala?

Do Spaniards have free choice of their „main“ surname (so they can go for their mother’s name if that suits them better than their father’s name)?

Or is the first surname of – say – Pedro de la Rosa’s children still „Martínez“ (regardless of the fact that Pedro doesn’t use his father’s first surname)?

Free choice. Officially everything will go down the way I explained earlier, but there´s no law to prevent you from changing your surname or from using any surname you want once you are past 18 years. If you prefer to use your mom´s maiden surname as first surname it´s just a matter of going to your nearest police station and fill in the papers (as far as I know). If I remember correctly, PDLR was called Pedro Martinez de la Rosa in his early days. Maybe he droped the Martinez for whatever reason, I don´t know.

What if both the father and mother have the same surname? (ie a common one, they aren't related). Say you have a Pedro Rodriguez da Silva, and a Maria Rodriguez Martinez.Does the child then become Julio Rodriguez Rodriguez? And will he get teased for it?

Hell yeah. I´ve got teased a few times for that, although my case is a bit particular. I was born in Romania, where women lose their maiden surnames when they get married. So, when my mom got her spanish citizenship, in her Passport she appeared with the same surname as her husband/my father. Years later, when I got my spanish citizenship, they put me down with my father´s surname as my first one and with my married mom´s surname as my second, thus becoming Stefan Whatever Whatever. It has one advantage, though: I have to spell my surname just once.

[fumes]

Originally posted by McHulme


I can imagine, for instance, using the matricidal surname for girls and the patricidal for boys

It's not nice to kill your parents!

[Antonio]

Originally posted by pio!pio!
What if both the father and mother have the same surname? (ie a common one, they aren't related)

Say you have a Pedro Rodriguez da Silva, and a Maria Rodriguez Martinez.

Does the child then become Julio Rodriguez Rodriguez? And will he get teased for it?

Oh yeah, I know I pretty funny case here in my tiny village in the south of Spain. The 1st surname of her father is Luna (=Moon), the 1st surname of her mother is Luna. Then, she was going to be called "whatever" Luna Luna. Can you imagine the name her parents chose for her? yes, exactly: Luna. She is Luna Luna Luna. Funny enouh, but I wouldn't have chosen Luna for the name, for God sake...

In addition to the topic, I would like to point out that in the Pedro Martínez de la Rosa case, I am pretty sure he is still called like that, I mean officially, but he uses Pedro de la Rosa as "artistic" name, easier to remember.

In the case of the PM, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, he is known as "Zapatero", but this does not imply any change in his surnames or anything like that. The former PM, José María Aznar whatever ( i don't remember his 2nd surname) was known as "Aznar".

[Gaston]

I have to add that in those cases that someone drops the father´s surname (Pedro De La Rosa, Zapatero) they do that only in their social life, their legal name is still Pedro Martínez De La Rosa or José Luís Rodríguez Zapatero and thats the name they have to put in any document, otherwise it´s not valid. You can tell people to call you whatever you want but until you change your name legally (and nobody does that here in Spain) your oficial name is [name][father´s first surname][mother´s first surname], that´s the way it will appear in your identity card, passport, contracts, etc.

And I don´t know if I´m right, but I thought that in Brazil they put first the mother´s surname and then the father´s one but the "main" one is the second, as they usually drop the first and use just the father´s. Being there it has happened to me that I have told my complete name to somebody for example to buy a flight ticket and then I have found that they have dropped my first surname and put just the second one.

[doohanOK]

Terrific thread. I was wondering about this, because I thought maybe Fernando used Alonso instead of Diaz for privacy, or peace of mind, or whatever.

Interesting stuff indeed.

regards,
doohanOK.

[Cojayar]

Originally posted by Antonio
In the case of the PM, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, he is known as "Zapatero", but this does not imply any change in his surnames or anything like that. The former PM, José María Aznar whatever ( i don't remember his 2nd surname) was known as "Aznar".

López.

My father, that never even thought to vote him, called him "my cousin" because his second surname was the same.

I always find extrange that lots of people find it complicate and even extrange. And I always had the question, "but then the son does not have the same mother's (sur)name?". But those people don't find extrange that German Cancellor Angela Merkel neither is born Merkel nor is married with Herr Merkel. She changed her name for the first marriage and kept the old husbands name after the second marriage.

I like the "Iberian" naming convention nice because you can select the name that betters suits for the most of your normal life. See it like people called Michael and called Mick. For normal life it's Mick, for official things are called Michael. Imagine if your name is Jenson Alexander Lyons Button.

[Zmeej]

Oh, I get it.

Le Bouton was named after an airline...

[coyoteBR]

No one will mention Andreas Nicholau Lauda?

He dropped a name, too.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by rodlamas
The drivers normally use the names according to their preferences.

For an example, Senna used "Ayrton da Silva" in his early Formula days. But as "Silva" is more common tha "Smith" in the USA and that "Muller" in Germany together, someone suggested he should use his mother's name.
...

A shame IMO that Senna did not use the Silva name, he might have had a whole lot of silver cars. He may have changed F1 in another way!

I looked up the common de, only four have been in F1, no Silva or Silvers either. The last "de" appears to be a contemporary female Saint

• Jo Schlesser 1968 1
  Bernd Schneider 1988 - 1990 34
  Rudolf Schoeller 1952 1
  Rob Schroeder 1962 1
  Michael Schumacher 1991 - 2006 238
  Ralf Schumacher 1997 - 2006 153
  Vern Schuppan 1972 - 1977 13
  Bob Scott 1952 - 1954 3
  Archie Scott-Brown 1956 1
  Piero Scotti 1956 1
  Wolfgang Seidel 1953 - 1962 12
  Gunther Seiffert 1962 1
  Ayrton Senna 1984 - 1994 162
  Dorino Serafini 1950 1
  Chico Serra 1981 - 1983 33
  Doug Serrurier 1962 - 1965 3
  Johnny Servoz-Gavin 1967 - 1970 13
  Tony Settember 1962 - 1963 7
  Hap Sharp 1961 - 1964 6
  Brian Shawe-Taylor 1950 - 1951 2
  Carroll Shelby 1958 - 1959 8
  Tony Shelly 1962 3
  Jo Siffert 1962 - 1971 100
  Andre Simon 1951 - 1957 12
  Moisés Solana

Those with "de" :
Andrea de Adamich 1968 - 1973 36
Elio de Angelis 1979 - 1986 109
Andrea de Cesaris 1980 - 1994 214
Maria Teresa de Filippis