18 replies to this topic

[jimm]

We have been dancing around this in about 4 different threads. Should F1 ditch it's history as a competition between manufacturers and drivers and become a pure driver's series?? This would require 1 chassis, 1 tire and 1 engine maker.

As long as we are there, would you favor doing away with teams all together? The cars would be prepared by the FIA and randomly distributed to the drivers at the beginning of the race weekend....This is how they do Barber Dodge in the US.

An in between could be a limited number of engines possible and the teams make the chassis only with the gearboxes provided by the engine builders. There would be a min. and max number of teams supplied (eg min 3 max 5).

There is also the CART model where the teams simply purchase either the engines or chassis making it in theory, possible for all teams to get the engine/chassis combo that is the best.

Let the fighti....I mean discussion begin...

[Fat Fighter]

No, no and NO!!!

Just a little more overtaking is needed and it will be perfect. If it aint broke don't fix it I say.

[Jodum5]

What will be the point of it being called F1 if it's a spec series?

[jimm]

Originally posted by Jodum5
What will be the point of it being called F1 if it's a spec series?

I don't know....Just seems to be where some want to go reading the comments from Max and people here on the BB. Thought I would just bring it into the open.

[Hiatt]

I can not check any of those options. First of all there is a problem with the question itself: "Should F1 become a spec series?"
F1 IS already in many ways a spec series! Look at the cars - they all look the same! There is very little freedom for the teams do go their own way. The amount of cylinders and volume is set for the engines. The placement of the wings are specified as well as their size much of their construction. The teams have little options but to build exactly like the other teams, just a little bit better.

Secondly, the future rules that are already more or less decided brings F1 even more into the "spec series land". Control tyres, frozen engine development, standard ECU and maybe even standard wings.

We should not fool ourselves. What many consider being the "glory days" was possible only because of the "spec engine", Ford Cosworth DFV, and a big shortage of both resources and wind tunnels. Those days will not come back but something has to be done to break the formula 'Huge Resources = Success'. Even Toyota will win. Eventually. They would propably have been sucessful already had the rules not changed every half hour forcing them to regroup their enourmos army all the time. Maybe we should be thankful to FIA after all

[Fat Fighter]

Originally posted by Hiatt
I can not check any of those options. First of all there is a problem with the question itself: "Should F1 become a spec series?"
F1 IS already in many ways a spec series! Look at the cars - they all look the same! There is very little freedom for the teams do go their own way. The amount of cylinders and volume is set for the engines. The placement of the wings are specified as well as their size much of their construction. The teams have little options but to build exactly like the other teams, just a little bit better.

Secondly, the future rules that are already more or less decided brings F1 even more into the "spec series land". Control tyres, frozen engine development, standard ECU and maybe even standard wings.

We should not fool ourselves. What many consider being the "glory days" was possible only because of the "spec engine", Ford Cosworth DFV, and a big shortage of both resources and wind tunnels. Those days will not come back but something has to be done to break the formula 'Huge Resources = Success'. Even Toyota will win. Eventually. They would propably have been sucessful already had the rules not changed every half hour forcing them to regroup their enourmos army all the time. Maybe we should be thankful to FIA after all

Hehe, maybe it's all a big con, moving the goalposts so often helps to bleed these big companies dry...

[SeanValen]

It shouldn't be a spec series, but it should allow more back to the drivers, banning traction control, lessening aero performance and tyre performance for grip. In terms of aero performance research, and tyres, we've reached a peak, lots of research has been done, how fast can a tyre go from here?,Time to put on a show by letting gliadiators go at it

But some technology I guess should remain, engine departments shouldn't freeze, but perhaps use environment friendly fuel sources etc

[Dudley]

No but it'll happen anyway. It's already 33% of the way there from next year.

[Calorus]

Originally posted by SeanValen
It shouldn't be a spec series, but it should allow more back to the drivers, banning traction control, lessening aero performance and tyre performance for grip. In terms of aero performance research, and tyres, we've reached a peak, lots of research has been done, how fast can a tyre go from here?,Time to put on a show by letting gliadiators go at it

But some technology I guess should remain, engine departments shouldn't freeze, but perhaps use environment friendly fuel sources etc

I can see what you're saying but surely for as long as teams have scope to engineer more into a car than a driver can differenyiate himself from his rivals, the Drivers' Championship is something of a misnomer?

[WHITE]

Originally posted by Hiatt
I can not check any of those options. First of all there is a problem with the question itself: "Should F1 become a spec series?"
F1 IS already in many ways a spec series! Look at the cars - they all look the same! There is very little freedom for the teams do go their own way. The amount of cylinders and volume is set for the engines. The placement of the wings are specified as well as their size much of their construction. The teams have little options but to build exactly like the other teams, just a little bit better.

Secondly, the future rules that are already more or less decided brings F1 even more into the "spec series land". Control tyres, frozen engine development, standard ECU and maybe even standard wings.

We should not fool ourselves. What many consider being the "glory days" was possible only because of the "spec engine", Ford Cosworth DFV, and a big shortage of both resources and wind tunnels. Those days will not come back but something has to be done to break the formula 'Huge Resources = Success'. Even Toyota will win. Eventually. They would propably have been sucessful already had the rules not changed every half hour forcing them to regroup their enourmos army all the time. Maybe we should be thankful to FIA after all

[Lifew12]

Should F1 become a spec series I'll be off to watch cricket. And i hate cricket.

[skinnylizard]

i think the very basis of F1 is that is was created not to be a spec series.

[vtpachyderm]

Originally posted by skinnylizard
i think the very basis of F1 is that is was created not to be a spec series.

exactly.

an F1 team consists of both drivers and the team, and together they make the best package. There are plenty of spec series out there for those that want one. Rather than try to regulate the package, stabilize the rules for a period of x (probably >5) years, saying there will be no radical changes, then teams can develop and make a package competitive over a period of time without having to go back to the drawing board every year or so.

My opinion on how to save costs while maintaining the F1 definition would be eliminate testing during the offseason, have a single tire supplier, and turn fridays into a full out test session where all teams can have three cars. They can use one engine on friday, and one engine for sat-sun. I would be sorry to see all the changes the FIA propose come through, but if the popular choice is for it, so be it, my interest will probably wane, but my life goes on since after all, its just entertainment.

[vroom-vroom]

It should never become a spec series. If it were the case, it might as well merge with CART and IRL, God forbid . AFAIAC, I don't like electronic aids, including radio communication, as they certainly interfere with driving abilities; it is a fact that F1 is first a manufacturer championship, with the best drivers then eventually ending up with the best machinery, and then wining in those teams. What I suggested in another thread was to somehow convince F1 drivers to mix it up in spec races, much like they used to do in the old F2 series where Clark, Ickx, and others were regulars and made for pretty good yardsticks for upcoming talents such as Rindt, for example. Nowadays, all kinds of excuses are thrown in to restrict F1 drivers to their F1 weekend job, but I would love to see them enter some GP2 events on non-F1 weekends, perhaps on a rotating, invitational basis. I think it would make for fantastic shows.

[Hiatt]

Originally posted by vtpachyderm
Rather than try to regulate the package, stabilize the rules for a period of x (probably >5) years, saying there will be no radical changes, then teams can develop and make a package competitive over a period of time without having to go back to the drawing board every year or so.

I think everybody would like that, including Max and all the team owners. Problem is that 5 years is a very long time. Imagine that a set of rules where "locked" at they year of 2000. Before the tyre war. There was no way really to predict how much the tyre war would increase the general performance of the cars. Lock the rules this year and next year starts the real "flex" war, or maybe someone make a completely new invention never thought of before (it can still happen) that suddenly makes the laptimes start falling like 2-3 seconds per year. It would not take long until the cars are too fast again.

So if the rules are going to be frozen for five years, FIA has to make quite a lot of space for innovations and performance increase and that would initially make the cars slow as hell. Look at F1 vs GP2 in Monaco. I know Monaco is not a representative track, but going by the times so far this weekend Lewis Hamilton would give Takuma Sato a run for his money if he would have placed his GP2 car on the F1 grid. How would the F1 fans like that? Would we like it if the Champcars would lap Circuit Villenueve 6 seconds faster than the Ferraris? I think not.

In the light of this, Max have made a lot of propositions that looks stupid and even evil, but to be honest - he does not have an easy job. I personally hate the two-race engine rules most of all. Each race should start from scratch and I think it is against the nature of racing that the drivers backs off at the end of the race so that they do not risk penalties or mengine failiure the next race. It is ok in a smaller series when they figure they want to save money and not stress the engine, but F1 should always allow every driver to race all the way to the finsihline.

I think that I am not alone having this view and I think that this problem is part of the reason behind the "engine freeze" suggestion. The two-race rule is there to prevent the manufacturers to make to extreme engines, they have to compromise with reliability and that will of course lower the performance. Unfortunately it is not enough. The 2-race V8 engines are not a lot slower than the one race V10's from 2004. The proposed engine rules will make sure engine performance is kept more or less stable for 5 years, only reliability is allowed to improve. When the engine is "frozen" it is easier to start thinking about freezing the rules for a longer time.

But by then we are already with one foot in Spec Land.

[emburmak]

Originally posted by Hiatt
I can not check any of those options. First of all there is a problem with the question itself: "Should F1 become a spec series?"
F1 IS already in many ways a spec series! Look at the cars - they all look the same! There is very little freedom for the teams do go their own way. The amount of cylinders and volume is set for the engines. The placement of the wings are specified as well as their size much of their construction. The teams have little options but to build exactly like the other teams, just a little bit better.

Secondly, the future rules that are already more or less decided brings F1 even more into the "spec series land". Control tyres, frozen engine development, standard ECU and maybe even standard wings.

We should not fool ourselves. What many consider being the "glory days" was possible only because of the "spec engine", Ford Cosworth DFV, and a big shortage of both resources and wind tunnels. Those days will not come back but something has to be done to break the formula 'Huge Resources = Success'. Even Toyota will win. Eventually. They would propably have been sucessful already had the rules not changed every half hour forcing them to regroup their enourmos army all the time. Maybe we should be thankful to FIA after all

[Keir]

SPEC ???? Are you MAD ??????????

[Tigershark]

Today's regulations already make it a semi-spec series, and this will only increase in the years to come.

[Calorus]

I'd rather see open checkbook competition - a showcase of engineering talent, than GP2 with F1 drivers. WDC is a joke for as long as Cars are being designed with flair - But the WCC is fundemental.