14 replies to this topic

[Megatron]

After winning the title in 1969, Matra didn't do well at all in 1970 with thier own engine. Why?

[Huw Jenjin]

Fail is only a relative term, as the engine was the same one that was extremely successful as a sports prototype motor. It is possible that it was a tad heavy, but was far more reliable in sports car racing than the DFVs at the time.
Whilst Matra did not win with the engine in a GP, Chris Amon won an F1 race in Buenos Aires in 1971, and damn near won at Monza and Clermont Ferrand in 1972.
I believe the same basic motor was used by Shadow occaisionally with Jarier driving, and did not disgrace itself, and then Jaques lafite won in Sweden with the engine fitted to a Ligier.

[Ray Bell]

It also did a lot of winning... just read the Amon thread and many others with reference to the number of hearts it won for its wail.

[Keir]

Winning is indeed relative, the sound of a Matra engine has always won hearts. In 1972, I sat along the front straight at Watkins Glen and each time the Matra wailed by, the crowd just said a collective WOW!! That's winning!!

Talking real results, however, I believe that Matra often took on more than they could handle. Even by the standards of the day, Matra was a small team. For the Belgian Grand Prix of 72, Chris' F1 Matra arrived in an Parisian vegetable truck, because the transporters were taking the sportscars to LeMans. When Matra really focused, they usually did well, sadly they didn't focus all that often.
I read in an interview with Chris Amon that Matra was always tweaking their F1 engines and it was rare that he would have two of the same engine at a GP, while the sportscar engines, while a tad down on power, were all the same and dead reliable. Looking at the current Prost situation, maybe it's a French thing??

[Ray Bell]

Watch it, there are Peugeot owners around here!

[Keir]

Always liked Peugeots, but I don't quite know why.
Maybe it's the shape? Or, maybe because this incredible looking lady used to drive up in one? But that's another story!!

[Ray Bell]

I don't know her....

[Keir]

I don't know your type, but this one lady is a dream machine. Do you think we are a bit off the topic?
Girls and cars, always together. Why is that?

[paulb]

Anyone have a sound clip of the Matra?

[Keir]

There are a few on the net, but the links escape me for the momment. Maybe http://www. matrasports.de.uk something along that line.

[Don Capps]

Like many, I loved the sound of the Matra vee-12. As Keir mentioned, it was remarkable to watch the reaction of the others around me at Watkins Glen when the Matra passed. People were almost entranced by that sound, staring at the car as it passed...

Speaking of Peugeot, it was a surprise to a young DC to see one of his idols, Phil Hill, tool away from the circuit in a -- you guessed it! -- Peugeot 403! Not what I would have imagined then, but it makes perfectly good sense from today's perspective. Hill used to tool around in a VW when running about Santa Monica on errands since it seemed to attrach very little attention from folks -- uniformed and otherwise!

[Keir]

That site source for Matra sound bytes is:
http://www.matrasport.dk/
Hope it works.

[Ray Bell]

Let's see now... we're talking here about cars, racing cars, girls, failure and emotional success...
Nobody can say that they don't all go together.
As for Phil in a 403, that's a nice touch, a little Columbo, perhaps, but a nice touch. Funny, I had just disposed of the only 403 I ever had when I first saw him race...
Another small but relevant point: In the very early days, around the turn of the century (1800s to 1900s that is), somebody remarked that the automobile would encourage promiscuity...
Now, promiscuity has been on the books for a long, long time (David and Bathsheba... or earlier, the Pharoah's wife and her enticement of Joseph, for instance), but the freedoms and privacy that the car brought changed the pattern of thinking of the well-to-do of that era... and everybody in the mechanised world within a few decades.
Who among us has not been in that situation?
Then, another aspect, a vice-President of the US in that same era claimed that when women started driving it would endanger marriage forever. Another truth, one might say, in the light of the experiences of the 20th century.
So let's not shy away from mixing women with cars, we've been doing it for years!
Among our collective lots is the willingness men have to show off to their women with their cars, and so we come to the Racing Car part of the equation, the ultimate form of showing off to them.
Or, in some cases, earning enough to satisfy them.

[Dave Ware]

>>After winning the title in 1969, Matra didn't do well at all in 1970 with thier own engine. Why?

Matra had a great chassis, but in those days, the engine was the first or second most important element in a winning F1 team and the chassis was fifth...at least according to Ken Tyrrell. I think his rankings were 1. engine 2. driver, 3. tires 4. team 5. chassis.

The Ford DFV was THE best F1 engine at the time. V12s as a rule were heavy and thirsty. More powerful, yes, but the weight and extra fuel weight could offset that. Tyrrell and Stewart broke for Matra mainly so they could stay with Ford.

Not to take away from their sportscar success at all...they did start sportscar racing in '66, I think, or perhaps '68. So they did have several years to build their team prior to winning Le Mans in '72 (the only race they ran that year - there's that focus Kier mentioned) and their great '73 year. The Ford DFVs in the Mirages and Lolas during those years were Grand Prix engines detuned so they would have a chance to last the distance. They had less horsepower than a normal DFV and the Ferraris and Matras. I believe the only race the DFV won was the '73 Spa 1000K, when the Matras and Ferraris broke. So...beating the Fords in endurance racing wasn't quite the achievement that beating them in F1 would have been.

My father is only a casual, occasional race fan, having been dragged into it by his 16-year-old son (me) in 1972. But he has always remembered the shriek of the Matra V12, and mentions it with a special gleam in his eye.

Dave

[Ray Bell]

I've always been aware that I must have missed something, the way everyone talks about the sound.