27 replies to this topic

[Ali_G]

Now in F1 it looks as if Works teams are the way to go. Already we are seeing the top teams doing this.

- Mercedes have bought a stake in McLaren and rumours are that they want a bigger one more than their present 30 %
- Ferrari are a works team
- BMW own a share in Williams and now want more
- Jaguar are a works team.
- Lotus are coming back into F1 by buying Prost F1
- Rumours abound that Jordan will be Honda's works team in a few years to come. Seemingly Honda's partnership has hit a stumbling spot with their efforts in this years championship
- Toyota are entering in two years
- Rumours are that Audi want to buy up Minardi
- Renault have bought Benetton.

Only a few teams will be left out on teir own.

The question is wether this will be good or not for the sport.

Ali_G

[Darren]

Seems not to have damaged the sport too much in the past 50 years. Not unless you thought works Alfa, Ferrari, Maserati, Matra, Renault or Brabham were bad things.

[Darren]

By the way, big up yourself, Ali G.

[Gil Bouffard]

Brabham doesn't count as a works team. They did not produce a road going car for consumers. Maybe well heeled consumers, but definately consumers.

Buying into a team doesn't make it a works team either. Its a "badging," thing. In other words, the whole thing has to have the same name and be produced by a single factory.

If Renault rename the cars Renault and move the manufacturing to France, then it is a works team.

Toyota has got to show up with their own chassis and motor.

Prost is getting Ferrari motors for next year. Doesn't sound like Lotus to me.



Gil Bouffard

[Rosco]

Gil Bouffard: Under your defination of a works team you could could call McLaren a works team because they build the McLaren F1 road car.

Yay I have now become a Member

[Gil Bouffard]

Rosco,

The McLaren GT is still powered by somebody else's motor.

When you buy a Ferrari you get a Ferrari chassis, drive train and a Ferrari motor, not a Chevy or an Ilmor.

The rule is, build the whole package under your name. Consider this. The Mercedes motor is actually an Ilmor, both in CART and F-1.

Vanwall and BRM weren't "works," teams. I asked (team manager) David Yorke why the Vanwall had no distinctive emblem. His answer was that they (Vanderwell) don't produce motor cars.

Gil

[Ali_G]

I don't think that McLaren like to admit it but thier McLaren F1 road car is being powered by a BMW V12.

A works team is a team which completely make their own F1 car and also produce cars for the market.

MCLaren are not as they have Mercedes engines.

There were rumours a few weeks that Prost was sellingup to David Hunt who owns the rights to Lotus and so the name would re-enter the sport next year. He is in the joint bid with the canadian company. So if they by Lotus are back.

Ali_G

[mhferrari]

Simply put a works team needs to provide the chassis and engine, but really needs to produce a road going car with its own engine and chassis.

[Ray Bell]

Lotus powered by Ferrari would be a turnaround!
But the F1 world has turned around, even since Lotus left it last.

[MacFan]

By the definition of a "works" team proposed here, no such team has won the WDC since 1979. Is building the entire car and engine in your factory, as well as selling road cars, really relevant or necessary in F1 today?

[Gil Bouffard]

Macfan, old salt..

The term is not "proposed." It's a fact.Check with the Brits. It's their fault.

"Works," is the snooty European term for car factory. Car factories build everything.

"Semi-works," or "works supported," means that the car factory is providing either technical or monetary support to an entrant.

It's like "Marque." Another snooty European word meaning brand or badge. Usually "badging," is what you do to an Ilmor to call it a Mercedes or a Cosworth to call it a Ford or even a Jaguar. But then, Ford owns Jaguar and Cosworth.

Gil

[MacFan]

Gil, I don't think the use of the term "works" is as cut and dried as you suggest - maybe in the past, but not now. If a company like Reynard, Lola or G-force build cars for a particular series - ALMS, CART or GTs for example, supply them to customers, and also run their own team, that team would be considered a "works" team, without the manufacurer being required to build road cars or racing engines. In this context, works means factory supported, but the factory in question is a racing car factory instead of a road car factory.

[Pascal]

Originally posted by Ali_G
- BMW own a share in Williams and now want more

I don't think this information is correct. Last I heard, Williams was still the property of Frank Williams (60%) and Patrick Head (40%), and neither of them was willing to sell.

[Caíco Caralho]

I hope Lotus is coming back, who knows with a black-and-gold livery, he he? Joining to a Canadian group...? Would it be Walter Wolf's? ha ha ha...

[boost]

Was Lamborghini ever a full works team? or was the chassis
another brand? The engine was Lambo tho right?

[Nathan]

The question is who will buy the works teams when all the car manufactures decide that A. they have had enough or B. as in Le Mans of the early 90's decided that F1 is too damn expensive. Will Dennis, Frank and everyone come back and buy there shares back? I think like Le Mans for a few years there, F1 may become rather dull for a bit.

[mhferrari]

In 1991, I think Lamborghini was a works team and sold engines also to Larrousse.

[Gil Bouffard]

MacFan.. The Brits seem to think that it is cut and dried. You never see them refer to Williams or McLaren as a "works team."

Lambo never built a chassis, only motors.

Finally. How many of you can tell me what the "MP4," stands for in the McLaren Chassis number? I'll wait a while before I tell you....;-)

Gil

[mhferrari]

I could have sworn in 1991 that there was a Lambo team, with Nicola Larini and Eric van de Poele

[Ivan]

Gil,
MP/4
stands for M-Mclaren P-Project/ For the life of me I can't remember the signifcance of the 4. But it has a meaning as well

[Gil Bouffard]

Ivan,

You put the slant bar in the wrong place...Ron Dennis took over McLaren while he was running the very successful Marlboro funded Project 4 Formula Two team.

The chassis are numbered MP4/10 or whatever.

The chassis are McLaren Project 4.

Gil

[Gil Bouffard]

Just checked. The current McLaren chassis is MP4-15. My guess was pretty close.

Gil

[Slicks]

My understanding of the current F1 discourse is that a team can have a "works" engine deal separate and apart from any chasis considerations. This characteristic, for example, currently distinguishes BAR Honda from Jordan Mugen-Honda. Next year, however, Jordan gets a Honda "works" deal. My point, contrary to Gil's assertion if I understand him correctly, is that the term "works" can be used quite properly to denote a factory engine package, and is not restricted to an engine/chasis package built by one auto manufacturer. Whether Gil agrees with this usage or not is really beside the point, since, as Wittgenstein illustrated, the meaning of a word is its use.

[Pascal]

Gil,

If I remember correctly, the number four in 'Project 4' stands for the 4 people who were at the origin of the team, among them Ron Dennis and John Barnard...

[KJR]

Gil,

MP comes from "Mika Pauli" and 4 is the number of his DWCs for McLaren...

[mhferrari]

Let me correct myself, it was a Lambo chassis and engine, but the team was I believe Modena.

[Gil Bouffard]

Hi Slicks,

Still mad at me?

Gil

[Slicks]

Not at all Gil - enjoy your posts. They're refreshingly intelligent.