49 replies to this topic

[Jason]

Given Toyota's budget, their steady improvement from season to season, and having had MG in their services, they truly seemed set to make a real move forward heading into this season. But we're already at the halfway and they don't seem nearly as competitive as they were in 2005. The one major change they make from last season compared to this season was switching to BS rubber. So while Ferrari have re-found their footing, Toyota seems to have slipped. Could it be that designing a car that runs well on BS rubber is somewhat problematic? Will other teams current on Michelin rubber suffer the same fate, as Toyota, next season when they all have to make the switch? If so, next season could play into Ferrari's hands quite nicely.

[V8 Fireworks]

Quite possible, though of course Toyota don't seem to be the most technically adept of teams. They seem to have lots of trouble with consistency and set-up even on Michelin.

[MortenF1]

....Williams performances have been good though, Webber retiring from three likely podiums, Rosberg fastest lap in Bahrain - just their pace in general, so while it's not gone very smoothly for Toyota, it has for Williams.

However, I totally expect next year to be a very good one for Ferrari. Bridgestone wont let Ferrari down, certainly not, and if they really are going to run specs from 2004, then it's almost a total guarantee that the Ferrari will perform better than the rest.
I think it will be ridiculous if B-stone really plan to use '04 spec tires. They were tailor-made for Ferrari!

[carbonfibre]

Indeed look at Williams.

But ofcourse this kind of stuff is just thrilling for all conspiracy people just waiting to attack Ferrari again. Remember when Ferrari had to switch to Bridgestone in 1999? Well the almost won the WDC and won the WCC.

So it doesnt need to be a problem.

[Ricardo F1]

Doesn't it really depend on how early the teams get to start testing on Bridgestones?

[MortenF1]

I cannot imagine that happening untill after the season finale, which makes any redesigns difficult, and hard pressed time-wise.

[carbonfibre]

Originally posted by race addicted
I cannot imagine that happening untill after the season finale, which makes any redesigns difficult, and hard pressed time-wise.

Indeed. But remember it will be the same for everyone.

Bridgestone will design a new tyre. Ofcourse Ferrari, Midland etc have more experience with Bridgestone but if most teams will do well.

[Youichi]

Originally posted by Jason
Could it be that designing a car that runs well on BS rubber is somewhat problematic?

Toyotas problem is that thier car was designed to run on Michelins, and in the big brass in Japan decreed that they should run on Bridgestones when it was too late to make the changes need to get the best out of the Bridgestone tyres.

Other teams wont have so many problems because they know before they start thier designs that they will be running on Bridgestones, as Williams did, hence thier good performances.

[Pioneer]

It could just be that Toyota sucks at designing race cars and their "improvement" was merely coincidence.

[MortenF1]

What makes me atleast a little bit less worried about my fav teams having to switch to B-stones next year, is seeing how Williams have coped. I regard Williams as a much better engineering team than Toyota, and even if their difficulites stems largely from a late decision to switch, I'm not surprised that they are still struggling a little.

[Ricardo F1]

Are the Ferrari engineers still in Japan and the Bridgestone chaps still at Maranello? Anyone know?

[MortenF1]

Yes I believe the arrangement is still like that. A huge disparity, but I haven't heard any complaints from their new teams, which I had expected, so maybe they've stopped it, in the name of fair sportsmanship.

[carbonfibre]

Why the other teams are free to send some guys over to Japan as well.;)

I think the whole thing is blown out of proportion. As i said before Ferrari had to do the same thing in 1999 and they won the WCC and nearly missed out on the WDC.

Good teams will make a smooth transition, see Williams.

[MortenF1]

I don't buy the comparison to '99, for reasons I think you'd agree being reasonable, carbonfibre. The situation is different, but it is nevertheless something interesting; cause as I said- the teams with serious engineering depth should cope.

[carbonfibre]

Originally posted by race addicted
I don't buy the comparison to '99, for reasons I think you'd agree being reasonable, carbonfibre. The situation is different, but it is nevertheless something interesting; cause as I said- the teams with serious engineering depth should cope.

Yeah back then most teams only had 1 maybe 2 years (some midfield teams a little bit more) experience with Bridgestone.

Ofcourse now Ferrari has been on Bridgestones since 1999. But i don't see the problem, because as you pointed out a team with a good staff will get them under control easily.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by carbonfibre
Why the other teams are free to send some guys over to Japan as well.;)

Uh, no they're not. And Bridgestone had engineers in Italy as well. Conceivably the Ferrari will be designed exactly around the 2007 tyres.

[Jason]

Originally posted by race addicted
....Williams performances have been good though, Webber retiring from three likely podiums, Rosberg fastest lap in Bahrain - just their pace in general, so while it's not gone very smoothly for Toyota, it has for Williams.

However, I totally expect next year to be a very good one for Ferrari. Bridgestone wont let Ferrari down, certainly not, and if they really are going to run specs from 2004, then it's almost a total guarantee that the Ferrari will perform better than the rest.
I think it will be ridiculous if B-stone really plan to use '04 spec tires. They were tailor-made for Ferrari!

Maybe just a case of Webber fitting in better at Williams this year compared to last year. Anyhow, IMO, Williams, relatively speaking, had better pace last year on Michelin rubber. Remember Nick had 3 podium finishes and Webber had 1, making 4 podium between them, at this time last year (i.e. after the same number of races). Actually, I'm far more impressed by BMW's pace on Michelin rubber than I'm by Williams' pace on Bridgestone rubber. At the start of the season, there's no way I wouldn't expected BMW's pace to be better than Williams' at this point.

[carbonfibre]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1

Uh, no they're not. And Bridgestone had engineers in Italy as well. Conceivably the Ferrari will be designed exactly around the 2007 tyres.

Ofcourse the other teams are going to design their cars around the Bridgestone tyres as well.

Or do you think they will design their cars for Michelin tyres? But ofcourse Ferrari can't do anything right. Ferrari sticked around with Bridgestone and they did nothing wrong.

[baddog]

Its funny, the companies both introduced enbtirely new tyres 2 years running, hell they had to because of the rules.. a change again isnt a big deal for a competent team.

[Dudley]

BAR have gone backwards as much as Toyota have.

[Modern Lover]

Originally posted by carbonfibre
Indeed. But remember it will be the same for everyone.

Bridgestone will design a new tyre. Ofcourse Ferrari, Midland etc have more experience with Bridgestone but if most teams will do well.

I might be wrong but I think remembering reading that Bridgestone would bring back their 2004 tyre range for the 2007 season. It sounds strange but does make sense form a cost point of view if they are going to have one control tyre.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Dudley
BAR have gone backwards as much as Toyota have.

The difference being BAR had good pace at the start of the season, which to seems to indicate they've hit a development snag since then. Toyota never had that type of pace to begin with. I think maybe what Youichi said in his post could be the case.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by carbonfibre
Ofcourse the other teams are going to design their cars around the Bridgestone tyres as well.

Or do you think they will design their cars for Michelin tyres? But ofcourse Ferrari can't do anything right. Ferrari sticked around with Bridgestone and they did nothing wrong.

Uh, if it's still the case, do you not understand that Ferrari having the Bridgestone engineers at their factory might just give them a bit of a headstart in where the tyres are going?

And as I've said I've no idea whether the Ferrari/Bridgestone engineers issue is actually still the case.

[SeanValen]

I for one think Renault are a awesome drilled outfit, getting the best out of everything on michelins, if they can pass even 85% of their work on BS tyres, it'll be a great testament to their people. I thought ferrari did a ace job in their first year with bridgestone in 1999.

Toyota are a disappointing team, despite the budget, they just don't have the renault/ferrari people, their 2005 season may have been better, but it's not like they achieved great targets though.

It's Renault, ferrari and mclaren(although mclaren are in uncertain waters right now), Honda and Toyota are fumes-Honda-Bar-all talk since 1999, Toyota-conservative until the end of time.

All the testing bar/ and now Honda have done, so many promising tests, go to a gp, and off the pace in the race, same old stuff, Nick Fry is making money, and he's off as soon as soon as Honda brass grow inpatient, but problem is, the good people are at renault/ferrari etc So firing him won't help.

And at the end of the day, how many competitive teams can you have? Always one or two, and rarely three-the third one should be mclaren, but they've had problems, the movement of staff and key people, always been the main factor.

[Gemini]

Originally posted by Jason

Toyota never had that type of pace to begin with. I think maybe what Youichi said in his post could be the case.

Seems he is right. Autosport had an article about that, how Bridgestone require bigger camber and Toyota's low mounting of front upper wishbone did not allow for that. It was changed in recent B chassis. I remember Piola's pictures on that topic...

[DCult]

Originally posted by carbonfibre
Ferrari sticked around with Bridgestone and they did nothing wrong.

Ferrari never does anything wrong. They have Max to do everything right for them

[PassWind]

Originally posted by Jason

Maybe just a case of Webber fitting in better at Williams this year compared to last year. Anyhow, IMO, Williams, relatively speaking, had better pace last year on Michelin rubber. Remember Nick had 3 podium finishes and Webber had 1, making 4 podium between them, at this time last year (i.e. after the same number of races). Actually, I'm far more impressed by BMW's pace on Michelin rubber than I'm by Williams' pace on Bridgestone rubber. At the start of the season, there's no way I wouldn't expected BMW's pace to be better than Williams' at this point.

Of Williams Podiums only one was on merit, Monaco. Malaysia was nearly there but a give me in the end when you look at the gap to the leaders The others fell into the lap of the team as opposed to the outings this year where it seemed podiums were possible on pace.




As for Toyota struggling on BS when exactly didn't they struggle with Michelin, only Trulli's extroidinary quali pace and bad luck of others around him kept Toyota up there in 2005. Ralf made in roads at the end of the season but Toyota's Michelin pace while better than now still was hit and miss.

There has only really been one team in the last two seasons that has a balanced package with Tyres, Renault and even then they had the odd struggle race. It would seems there are very tight envelopes of performance with the tyre/chasis integration that if right gains lots of race pace, if you get it slightly wrong your not even on the same lap at the end of the race. Hell McLaren have struggled to get the Michelin working properly and Honda were/are just woeful at it.

So no I would not say there is a link between Toyota's struggles and the rest of the teams coming across to BS in 2007.

[K-One]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1

Uh, if it's still the case, do you not understand that Ferrari having the Bridgestone engineers at their factory might just give them a bit of a headstart in where the tyres are going?

And as I've said I've no idea whether the Ferrari/Bridgestone engineers issue is actually still the case.

Someone even has his own guru at Bridgestone

http://www.autosport...e=news&id=52567

[Mauseri]

Toyota might struggle on Michelins as well, just like they did before last year's full race tyres.

[Zdeus]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1

Uh, no they're not. And Bridgestone had engineers in Italy as well. Conceivably the Ferrari will be designed exactly around the 2007 tyres.

And why should it not be designed around the 2007 tyres ???

[MortenF1]

Gee, you don't get it? really?
With a tyre monopoly, no-one should get a head-start on the others, that's the point. Things have to be fair in that situation.

[cavallinö]

No with control tyres no one should get an advantage. If one provider decides to pull out, its teams wil obviously lose out. It's not the Bridgestone runners' fault that Michelin ispulling out, why should they suffer? It's the same insert a chicane argument - change the tyre rules for us because we didn't have the sense to move to bridgestones sooner. Michelin have the better tyres this year overall, and the teams are benefiting from it. If it's the other way around next year, well that's fair justice.

[baddog]

All teams must receive equal access to data, testing rights(obviously not all will take as much), etc from the day the contract begins. This is incredibly important.

[Jason]

Originally posted by PassWind



Of Williams Podiums only one was on merit, Monaco. Malaysia was nearly there but a give me in the end when you look at the gap to the leaders The others fell into the lap of the team as opposed to the outings this year where it seemed podiums were possible on pace.




As for Toyota struggling on BS when exactly didn't they struggle with Michelin, only Trulli's extroidinary quali pace and bad luck of others around him kept Toyota up there in 2005. Ralf made in roads at the end of the season but Toyota's Michelin pace while better than now still was hit and miss.

There has only really been one team in the last two seasons that has a balanced package with Tyres, Renault and even then they had the odd struggle race. It would seems there are very tight envelopes of performance with the tyre/chasis integration that if right gains lots of race pace, if you get it slightly wrong your not even on the same lap at the end of the race. Hell McLaren have struggled to get the Michelin working properly and Honda were/are just woeful at it.

So no I would not say there is a link between Toyota's struggles and the rest of the teams coming across to BS in 2007.

In my post after that one, I express my view that what Youichi stated seems to explain a lot. Since revising their chassis to accommodate more camber Toyota's pace actually seems better than Williams' pace. Anyhow, off hand I can't think of any team other than Ferrari that has actually improved their position within the WCC standings going from Michelin rubber to Bridgestone rubber. That's even including Williams this year. And as we all know, the opposite held true when BAR switched from BS to Michelin in 2004.

[carbonfibre]

Originally posted by race addicted
Gee, you don't get it? really?
With a tyre monopoly, no-one should get a head-start on the others, that's the point. Things have to be fair in that situation.

The only way to do that is by getting a new tyre manufacturer.

And i believe Pirelli stated they were interested in F1 so maybe they will come along who knows? The point is that it isnt Ferrari's fault that Bridgestone might be the new tyre manufacturer in 2007.

Everybody keeps pointing at the Ferrari direction but they don't have anything to say about it.

[MortenF1]

Originally posted by carbonfibre
The only way to do that is by getting a new tyre manufacturer.

And i believe Pirelli stated they were interested in F1 so maybe they will come along who knows? The point is that it isnt Ferrari's fault that Bridgestone might be the new tyre manufacturer in 2007.

Everybody keeps pointing at the Ferrari direction but they don't have anything to say about it.

That would be the only water-proof option, so to speak, but I'd be content with forwarding of slicks, as Briatore suggested. 'Cause we know we're not gonna get a new manufacturer for '07 atleast.

[baddog]

Of course the situationh for 97 is comfused, because there is not a statutory one manufacturer, there is just only one signed up. That leaves, I assume, the FIA with no real power over the situation?

[Modern Lover]

Originally posted by cavallinö
No with control tyres no one should get an advantage. If one provider decides to pull out, its teams wil obviously lose out. It's not the Bridgestone runners' fault that Michelin ispulling out, why should they suffer? It's the same insert a chicane argument - change the tyre rules for us because we didn't have the sense to move to bridgestones sooner. Michelin have the better tyres this year overall, and the teams are benefiting from it. If it's the other way around next year, well that's fair justice.

1: With a control tyre from Bridgestone Ferrari probably will get some preferential treatment.
2: With a third party everyone starts with clean sheets, obviously the fair alternative.
3: The insert a chicane argument was for safety reasons, but (i cant remember the excact race) Bridgestone was allowed to fly in tires a couple of years ago, why not let Michelin do the same?
4: What is this nonsense statement 'change the rules for us because we did not have the sense to move to Bridgestones earlier'? They are under a contract, and when they signed that they where not aware that the FIA was going to switch to a single supplier and Michelin subsequently pulling out. It should be a level playingfield when its is a control piece of equipment. To level it out all they have to do is to bring back slicks for 2007. Easy and eveyone wins (but not the donkeys as they probably consider this collective cheating).

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by Ravindra Nagpurkar


And why should it not be designed around the 2007 tyres ???

Because it's unlikely the rest of the paddock, for sure the Michelin teams, won't get access to the tyre in time.

[Modern Lover]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1

Because it's unlikely the rest of the paddock, for sure the Michelin teams, won't get access to the tyre in time.

They are not allowed to test with them unitl 07 as well. Bad not to bring in a third party.

[baddog]

Again, for 07 how could another company be brought in? Just because Michelin pulled out you cant kick bridgestone out before the actual rules saying one maker (08)

[Modern Lover]

Originally posted by baddog
Again, for 07 how could another company be brought in? Just because Michelin pulled out you cant kick bridgestone out before the actual rules saying one maker (08)

You can bring back slicks. That would level things out

[baddog]

Originally posted by Modern Lover

You can bring back slicks. That would level things out

I dont think its a bad idea, but bridgestone might flatly refuse without a years notice on safety grounds (and its not like a new company could safely be ready for winter testing)

[Modern Lover]

Originally posted by baddog


I dont think its a bad idea, but bridgestone might flatly refuse without a years notice on safety grounds (and its not like a new company could safely be ready for winter testing)

I think GoodYear or anyone with racing experience can deliver slicks, easy

[skonks]

by Modern Lover

Bridgestone was allowed to fly in tires a couple of years ago, why not let Michelin do the same?

I'm eager to "learn" what race are you talking about ;)

by Modern Lover

With a third party everyone starts with clean sheets, obviously the fair alternative.

so, Bridgestone should be dumped starting from 2007 because Michelin's withdrawn

[Red Rocket]

Toyota has been struggling in F1 since entering F1.

As for another tyre manufacturing entering, when Michelin goes I say no. I am tyred (sorry for the pun) of these trye wars. At least when you have one manufacturer all can concentrate on developing the cars instead of the tyres.

[Modern Lover]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by skonks
[B]

I'm eager to "learn" what race are you talking about ;)


Brazil 2003 when Bstone only brought an intermediate (the wrong tyre obviously) and the race was thus started under safety car since the poor Bridgestoen clad racers could not hit the track and be safe under the conditions. That was ok with FIA but a chcane at Indy or letting them fly in new tires....Its a travesty if the slicks are not introduced in 07.

[baddog]

The problem at indy was starting the race under a safety car wouldnt have been at all the same, there being no way the safety car could have come in.. there were no conditions to change, nothing to gain by doing that at all, except a race with no passing, no speed, just lap after lap of parade behind a mercedes. That would have been worse than what happened for everybody.

[Modern Lover]

But Mcihelin mande a mistake with their tyre choice, offered to fly in new tires, but the FIAt refused. When Bstone stuffs its ok and they (FIAt) do whatever they can to 'help' out.
Slicks for 2007, the only way to go. 2008 give it to Goodyear, Pirelli, Firestone, BfGoodrich whomever just not Bstone as they would be extremely biased towards the donkeys for their continual 'loyalty'.

[baddog]

Originally posted by Modern Lover
But Mcihelin mande a mistake with their tyre choice, offered to fly in new tires, but the FIAt refused. When Bstone stuffs its ok and they (FIAt) do whatever they can to 'help' out.
Slicks for 2007, the only way to go. 2008 give it to Goodyear, Pirelli, Firestone, BfGoodrich whomever just not Bstone as they would be extremely biased towards the donkeys for their continual 'loyalty'.

Incorrect, Michelin said they didnt have any tyres they could guarantee. They couldnt fly any in at all.

As for 2008 lets see who tenders.