183 replies to this topic

[imaginesix]

Originally posted by HoldenRT
It's quite simple.. if you like watching watch. If you don't like watching.. don't watch.

How are you gonna decide if you like it if you don't watch???

[brunopascal]

Cannot find jo-briggs in the members list. Probably he/she couldn't be bothered anymore indeed.

[noikeee]

Originally posted by micra_k10
Watch, or shut up and dont watch.

If you dont like to watch cars driving around a circuit, I recommend you not to watch. The running order not being changed is comparable to no goals in a period of football match. Still i dont hear them crying football is boring. Because they are excited just seeing the game.

0-0s can be entertaining, because you know there is always a good chance someone can score a goal. However imagine a football championship where more than half the games are 0-0s (like in most races there are no overtakes in F1), and where you know there is a very slim chance a team that is losing can comeback to win it (like there are no lead changes in F1 after the first corner).

I love football as much as F1, but if it went that way.. I'm not sure if I could stand it.

[Bloggsworth]

Originally posted by brunopascal
Cannot find jo-briggs in the members list. Probably he/she couldn't be bothered anymore indeed.

Do a search...........

[howardt]

Brunopascal couldn't be bothered! That fits the ... whatever.

[Sakae]

Originally posted by jo-briggs
...I am losing patience with Formula One, of the money grubbing of Bernie Ecclestone, of the power crazed antics of Max Mosely,...

I echo your sentiment, but unfortunately I am still here, hoping for miracle. New owners of F1 began to loose its traditional customer base, so instead to improve product, they had move it into new theathers, replacing old and faithful, with a new customer without a baggadge of knowing racing of yesteryears. Throwaway society now has throwaway customer. We are done in here, Mr. Briggs. Some of us will take a walk, some will put up, while dreaming of better times. Problem is, that racing of the past is not coming back, and I can't see how (to be heard) you can unite 1 bill claimed onlookers, which all in one voice to tell Bernie, Max, and whoever else - get lost!

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by paranoik0
0-0s can be entertaining, because you know there is always a good chance someone can score a goal.

There is a good chance of AT LEAST one or two overtakes in F1 race.

However imagine a football championship where more than half the games are 0-0s (like in most races there are no overtakes in F1), and where you know there is a very slim chance a team that is losing can comeback to win it (like there are no lead changes in F1 after the first corner).

In football match there are only 3 possible outcomes. In F1 race there are many more ;)

[rosemeyer]

jo-briggs

I have F1 since 1959 yes I am old but I totaly agree.

[gerry nassar]

Originally posted by Peter Perfect
I always find these threads extremely irritating. Not for the question, it's perfectly valid and all fans go through periods of loving and hating the sport for various reasons, but for the responses. Some try to persuade the OP that the sport still merits support and can be of great enjoyment, others that it's going through a lean time but worth sticking with. But I'm sorry to say that the most annoying ones are those which strike the elitist tone and basically state that "if you've not with us you're against us" and make no attempt to promote the sport they claim to enjoy. IMHO of course.

I totally agree.

Everyone is free to rant about what they think about the sport without others telling them to shut up and leave. Jo Briggs started the thread last year just before the season turned around and became interesting. This season appears to be even worse. Plenty is wrong with F1, from the on track processions to the ineptness of the FIA and Bernie's greed. Offcourse most of us still watch with the hope of the occasional classic race and the hope the formula and rules will change enough to return us to some exciting racing. But dont bash the average fan who may be getting tired of what F1 has become.

[Alien]

I find this forum a lot more entertaining than F-1 itself... And yes i can watch F-1 and don´t like it, i can even cry, moan and get pissed off out of the procession that is F-1 today. It is MY RIGHT to moan in this forums. If you don't like this then DON'T READ MY POSTS. Thank You

[RSNS]

In fact this thread is veering towards the statement of whether the posters agree with what Bira said or not. She made it clear that it was her personal, not her institutional position, so I do not see much point in discussing whether we agree with her or not: if you find the original thread start post annoying just don't answer.

So, may we go back to the issue here? Viz: what to do to make racing more exciting?

I know this has been covered, but a couple of suggestions and diagnostics have been made (I am guilty of one), so perhaps we could discuss them?

[nigel red5]

I thought the issue here, ie in this thread, was Jo brigg's opening post, which opens up the whole question of whether people can be bothered with it anymore. Yes there are plenty of Whys, and fixes that we all have in our minds on how the sport could be better, but IMO a constructive debate about that would be better served in a different thread, that's just my own view on it, nothing personal at all.

It does baffle me why people ask if they can be bothered anymore. To me it's not so much the 'arse.....door....way out' point that needs to be discussed, although i do agree with the sentiments that bira posted over a year ago now to some extent.

Let's put it another way... Why do we all follow Formula 1 in the first place?, and so what are we trying / expecting to get out of it? - for that, you need to understand firstly what Formula 1 is.

F1 was the first form of motorsport that i clapped eyes on as a kid. It quickly became apparent that these are the world's best drivers racing eachother in the world's top cars. That's what it is.....full stop.

All i want to get out of F1 is watching these brilliantly gifted drivers perform what to me is a form of art. Squeezing every last drop from the machine they have underneath them to go around a given track the quickest of all. We still have that today.

F1 has also been about car constructors working within a set of regulations laid down, to design, build, and race the best possible car. Now, without going off track or getting into the politics of the sport as it currently stands, then arguably apart from two teams this year (2007), we still have that today too. So therefore F1 still ticks all the right boxes on the criteria list. Everyone is different of course, but to me if you are looking for a lot more than those two very basic ideas of what the sport should be, then you've been following the wrong game for some time now.

Jo-briggs said in the original post that the races are'nt as good as they used to be...there's no overtaking. It's been hard to overtake for nearly two decades now. I like things the way they are now. It being HARD to overtake should be fundamental in the sport. With the regulations on design, and engines being so tight these days, then i know that within a small range - much smaller than in decades past - then if i see an overtaking move then i can reason in my mind that driver skill, and not turbos, nor ground effect, nor active suspension played a large part in making that move possible. Getting rid of traction control will only increase my enjoyment, and my will to be 'bothered' with the sport - not diminish it.

[philhitchings]

here here

a pass in F1 to me is like a goal in a world cup final. beautiful wonderful exciting and some times messy, but destined to be remembered it should be hard to achieve too. that's what makes it so sweet

[Bloggsworth]

One of the most fascinating GPs I ever attended was the 1964 British GP at Brands Hatch - Jim Clark took the lead at the start with Graham Hill following, and for the whole race those positions stayed the same, but the gap varied lap by lap; Hill would catch Clark, Clark would move away, Hill would pull out all the stops and close the gap again, whereupon Clark would find just a little bit more and pull away. The gap seemed to never be more than 3 or 4 seconds, though I'm sure it was. Surtees was third IIRC, but quite frankly he was, on that day, irrelevant.

Quite often the races of rose tinted memory were as processional, but it was possible to overtake if you got yourself in a position to do so. If you watch a variety of types of motor racing, it rapidly becomes apparent, that in series where cars do not have front wings, overtaking occurs all the time - the exception being GP2, where they are all insanely trying to get an F1 seat, and where drivers will go for a gap no wider than that between Berie's buttocks................................

If I were at the circuit, I could quite happily watch just one F1 car all day, revelling in the technique, bravado and general thunder of it all; but Formula One is presented on television as a spectacle, an entertainment, something which, on occasion it conspicuously is not. Granted Lewis Hamilton has, seemingly singlehandidly, temporarily halted the slide of the global TV audience, but more and more fans are being asked to pay for viewing F1, and if it doesn't entertain, the paying viewers are going to start resenting having to fork out for something that they are ambivalent about watching.

[Mat]

Originally posted by Bloggsworth
One of the most fascinating GPs I ever attended was the 1964 British GP at Brands Hatch - Jim Clark took the lead at tha start with Graham Hill following, and for the whole race those positions stayed the same, but the gap varied lap by lap; Hill would catch Clark, Clark would move away, Hill would pull out all the stops and close the gap again, whereupon Clark would find just a little bit more and pull away. The gap seemed to never be more than 3 or 4 seconds, though I'm sure it was. Surtees was third IIRC, but quite frankly he was, on that day, irrelevant.

Replace those three names with Hamilton, Alonso & Massa and think of the USGP....

[philhitchings]

Exactly. The race still has interest

[angst]

Originally posted by nigel red5


Jo-briggs said in the original post that the races are'nt as good as they used to be...there's no overtaking. It's been hard to overtake for nearly two decades now. I like things the way they are now. It being HARD to overtake should be fundamental in the sport. With the regulations on design, and engines being so tight these days, then i know that within a small range - much smaller than in decades past - then if i see an overtaking move then i can reason in my mind that driver skill, and not turbos, nor ground effect, nor active suspension played a large part in making that move possible. Getting rid of traction control will only increase my enjoyment, and my will to be 'bothered' with the sport - not diminish it.

There is, actually, a great deal of merit in this argument. I am hoping that the ban on TC is going to make a difference as well. I have to admit that the single tyre supplier has been a good thing for F1 in many ways, despite my oppostion to it. I can see, for example, far more lateral movement in the car this year than I have noted before. The drivers' differing styles are highlighted to a greater extent than before, and this will (i hope) be enhanced by the removal of TC from next year. That should also lead to a greater degree of lateral travel again with a new generation of tyres for the non-TC era. There also seems to be less of a problem with 'marbles' which allows for a greater choice of lines....

The US Grand Prix showed what might really need changing, in order to enhance viewer enjoyment. The direction at that race was great, showing midfield battle after midfield battle. The commentators even referred to the fact that one might have forgotten that, at the front Hamilton was pulling away and leading from Alonso etc. Yet, when a battle began to build at the front the coverage went straight to it. The broadcasters around the world could learn a great deal from whoever it was directed the coverage of that race.

[Gareth]

Originally posted by angst
The US Grand Prix showed what might really need changing, in order to enhance viewer enjoyment. The direction at that race was great, showing midfield battle after midfield battle. The commentators even referred to the fact that one might have forgotten that, at the front Hamilton was pulling away and leading from Alonso etc. Yet, when a battle began to build at the front the coverage went straight to it. The broadcasters around the world could learn a great deal from whoever it was directed the coverage of that race.

Spot on

[howardt]

Excellent point by Angst - there have been races which appear from the TV coverage to be sleep-inducing, but in fact feature some incredible battles down the field while the TV director is concentrating on the local hero and/or race leader lapping on his own.

[brunopascal]

Originally posted by Bloggsworth
Do a search...........


Originally posted by Howardt
Brunopascal couldn't be bothered! That fits the ... whatever.

Look, this is no big deal, but I searched through the members list and couldn't find jo-briggs. (Now, if I fcuked up or something in my search....well, we've all fcuked up now and then.)

However, of course I found posts by jo-briggs. The person has posted on this BB afterall..

I only posted that comment to point out that perhaps jo-briggs was tired enough of F1 to not even post about it and left the BB.

[Bloggsworth]

I said do a search, I didn't say search the members list.......................

[Will]

Originally posted by howardt
Excellent point by Angst - there have been races which appear from the TV coverage to be sleep-inducing, but in fact feature some incredible battles down the field while the TV director is concentrating on the local hero and/or race leader lapping on his own.

As far as I understand the race direction was contracted out to Bernie's TV company rather than a national TV director so that was probably the reason for the unbiased good quality direction.

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by emburmak
Excellent Post. I have been watching F1 is the 80's and in all honesty the races are more or less the same. The problem is some people are getting too jaded about watching grown men going around in endless circles. I still love F1 but must admit that it now lacks the passion of former years. Nothing to do with the quality, simply advancing years!

I have been watching F1 for only a decade or so, and I can't see ANY difference of ANY kind AT ALL! So I can't help to wonder, if F1 is crap in 2007, then it certainly was crap in 1997 as well, what I don't get though is how someone can be bothered to watch a decade of a sport he/she believes to be boring. It's completely incomprehensive.

[Bloggsworth]

Myself when young did eagerly frequent party after party in the hope that the next would be the one, the party to end all parties, but in the sure and certain knowledge, that in all probability, this one would be as disappointing as the last, a triumph of hope over experience. But every so often, and for no tangible reason, a party would take off; it wasn't the drink, it certainly wasn't drugs, it was the partygoers; sometimes a disparate collection of people and a concatenation of events conspired to turn a mere gathering into an event. Formula One is a bit like that, addictive in its way, you watch, knowing that you will in all likelihood see yet another procession, in the hope that this time, this time........................

[angst]

Originally posted by Will


As far as I understand the race direction was contracted out to Bernie's TV company rather than a national TV director so that was probably the reason for the unbiased good quality direction.

If that is true, then it ought to become common practice.

[Go_Scotty_Go!]

Originally posted by VresiBerba



I have been watching F1 for only a decade or so, and I can't see ANY difference of ANY kind AT ALL! So I can't help to wonder, if F1 is crap in 2007, then it certainly was crap in 1997 as well, what I don't get though is how someone can be bothered to watch a decade of a sport he/she believes to be boring. It's completely incomprehensive.

Exactly.

After the Monaco Grand Prix it was all doom and gloom - then Canada happened. It's been the same way seems like forever - not just for a decade. People tend to forget the boring races from the past, and people tend to not bother to post boring races up to youtube so all we get is a highlight reel from the past and rose colored glasses.

F1 is pretty much the same.

[philhitchings]

Perhaps it's not F1 that becomes boring but a matter of the spectator becoming bored of the action he/she once got excited about ( Dimo). i.e. F1 essentially provides the same level of excitement but it no longer attracts the viewer

I certainly haven't maintained all of my interests for the whole of my life, and in some cases I have "gone off" some things only to return to them years later.

[RSNS]

I have been watching F1 regularly from 1970. It was exciting then, with a few very boring races, as always. The best period for me was perhaps that of the Senna-Prost years. The early Schumacher days (against Hill and Villeneuve) were excellent. Then new rules concerning tires appeared and made racing extremely boring. Last year and the year before that things were much more exciting and some memorable races occurred. This year the rev limiting rule seems to make things less interesting again.

So I may claim that I kept the interest (with drops after deaths) throughout and I may quite confidently say that the last decade was less interesting than the early 90ies, the 80ies and 70ies.

[WHITE]

Originally posted by RSNS
I have been watching F1 regularly from 1970. It was exciting then, with a few very boring races, as always. The best period for me was perhaps that of the Senna-Prost years. The early Schumacher days (against Hill and Villeneuve) were excellent. Then new rules concerning tires appeared and made racing extremely boring. Last year and the year before that things were much more exciting and some memorable races occurred. This year the rev limiting rule seems to make things less interesting again.

So I may claim that I kept the interest (with drops after deaths) throughout and I may quite confidently say that the last decade was less interesting than the early 90ies, the 80ies and 70ies.

[spitty]

Formula 1 has been a constant in my life since 1980 when I watched my first race. Boring? Bloody oath it is, all the new tracks are ****? Yeah. All the legend drivers are gone? Too right.

But it will always be F1 to me, the "pinnacle of motorsport" so to speak.

Every race I sit there before the start nervous and anticipating a great race.... by about lap 6 we are usually ready for bed, and for all of you that are not from Australia,Kiwiland and the like every race is not usually screened untill midnight.

But I still watch it and always will, I will always live for F1, just cant really tell you why..........

[Bloggsworth]

Sporting masochism, a bit like when we English watch Tim Henman play at Wimbledon - more in hope than expectation.

As Del Boy said "This time next year, we'll all be millionaires"

[howardt]

I can't buy in to the "we don't want to see overtaking" argument. Presumably people who feel like this are very bored with the frequency of overtaking in the MotoGP series at the moment, and are saying "Pah, it's so easy to overtake, there's no skill there" ?

I agree with Bloggsworth that at the trackside F1 is in itself enough of a spectacle to keep me entertained, even if it was just one car going round : the noise, smell, feel is exciting.

But on TV without the smell & decibels, the lack of action is quite soporific. As entertainment it sucks.

The "Hamilton effect" isn't going to keep those new viewers hooked for long if there's nothing to see. It's easier to just read the papers on a Monday morning to follow his results.

[pedrovski]

I watched the indy race until the first pitstop to see how all the strategies played out then I went out and met up with some friends. I've been following F1 regularly since 94 and casually before that. I'm now at a point where I can pick and choose the races. Last year I switched on the TV and the hungarian race was about to start thinking "won't watch this" but it was raining so I stayed where I was and watched it. I remember the time when I watched damon hill live win his WDC or Hakk in 98.

[Go_Scotty_Go!]

Originally posted by howardt
I can't buy in to the "we don't want to see overtaking" argument. Presumably people who feel like this are very bored with the frequency of overtaking in the MotoGP series at the moment, and are saying "Pah, it's so easy to overtake, there's no skill there" ?

I agree with Bloggsworth that at the trackside F1 is in itself enough of a spectacle to keep me entertained, even if it was just one car going round : the noise, smell, feel is exciting.

But on TV without the smell & decibels, the lack of action is quite soporific. As entertainment it sucks.

The "Hamilton effect" isn't going to keep those new viewers hooked for long if there's nothing to see. It's easier to just read the papers on a Monday morning to follow his results.

I think the gist of the point is that we don't want to see artificially enduced overtaking - if the car in front is faster, and if the driver is making no mistakes, then the car behind won't be able to pass - as it should be.


It's like people want F1 to be a different style of racing or something, I don't get it really. I think it is safe to say that F1 will never be a series that has a lot of passes. If that is what you need to be entertained - why can't some of you just switch it off, stop posting, and move on?

It's like complaining about the lack of tackling in American Baseball or something.

Usually - the fastest car/driver combo gets the lead and holds it - what is the big surprise?