56 replies to this topic

[RaggedEdge]

I was surprised to see G Villeneuve ranked as all time top 2 in Motorporsport's(?) ranking.

Why is this so?

Just looking at cold facts, his career does not look spectacular:

1. In 1979 he had a championship winning car, but was beaten to second by Jody Schecketer 47 points vs 51 points, both with 3 wins.

Now I remember Jody was critisizing Eddie Irvine earlier this year as doing bad job at Ferrari and Eddie Irvine responded somewhere that Jody had it easy in his time.

In any case, how could he lose to his teammate, who is not an all-time great, and lost once-in-a-lifetime WDC chance?

2. Again, in 1982, when he died, he had a championship winning car, and I understood Didier Pironi has been widely blamed of "stealing" the victory in San Marino, leading to his accident in the next race. His track record up to that point does not exactly suggest that Gilles would have been any better bet for WDC than Pironi was (until he too was injured), although numerous retirements do not make that judgement really possible.

3. Pure stand-alone stats do not look that distinguished:

68 races, 6 wins, 13 podium, 2 poles, 8 fastest laps, 107 points.

I am just mystified by this legendary worshipping. I have a 1982 review video, and there was plenty of overtaking and daring moves then, but Villeneuve did not look dominating.

I am not attempting anything sacrilegious, but just question a bit what made Gilles that special, apart from driving for Ferrari, being adored by Mr. Ferrari, and having aggressive approach to racing.

Especially my point 1. puzzles me, as Gilles did not deliver WDC when he could have in 1979.

[Don Capps]

RE,

Those, to me at any rate, are good, fair questions. I am not so sure if there are any good, easy answers. You are not alone in raising this issue. I know that David Hobbs, for one, was and is not a fan Villeneuve - he used the term "rock ape." And there are a number of others with the same opinion.

The first one is easy: when Jody Scheckter came to Scuderia Ferrari, it was as Number One and the intent to win the WDC. Villeneuve accepted that and supported Scheckter in achieveing that Team although he could have probably just gone ahead and snatched the WDC from Scheckter on any number of occasions. But, he didn't because he gave his word. I fully realize that in the Modern World of What's In It For Me, that this is an alien concept, that is the only real answer.

Villeneuve had given his word to Scheckter and that was that. That is why he was so upset at what happened at Imola.

In 1982, the best potential non-Winner of the WDC was John Watson. If Pironi had foul luck, the racing gods flailed Watson. With only a pittance of good fortune, it could have easily have been Watson winning the crown at the end of the season. As to Villeneuve? Perhaps the Moss Syndrone was setting in, I don't know, but he was a threat each and every race which is sign of a Contender regardless of where they end up in the standings. After their times, the first person the drivers usually asked about was Villeneuve. That says something.

Sometimes statistics are just numbers and don't reflect much of the reality of something. In an age in which we reduce everything to digits and analyze it to death, somehow it is easy the essence of what is behind the stats. In person, on the track, you paid attention to Villeneuve. Even if the car was a total dawg - the T5 - he still wrung the max out it and then some. The 126C was not an easy car to make perform - yet Villeneuve actually won races in it.

The record is not always The Record if you will. Reading the words of the Gettysburg Address is not the same as feeling the power of those words. The same with Villeneuve: he is largely an anomoly in modern racing - an emotional versus a statistical choice.

I saw him actually race and the videos simply somehow fail to capture the real or imagined power of his driving. Life is like that it seems.

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps




[This message has been edited by Don Capps (edited 12-06-1999).]

[cjs f1]

Gilles Villeneuve was a classic example of not WHAT he did, but HOW he did it.

[Don Capps]

Yeah, that's what I meant to say....

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

[Fast One]

I agree with Don that statistics can be VERY misleading, but I do not think they can be totally ignored. Ragged edge, please see my comments in the "Motorsports 100" thread in this forum. I compare him to a couple of other drivers you may know.

People rave about Gilles style, but to me he had none. Like Jochen Rindt, he was just a guy flinging the car around spectacularly, but not often that quickly, waiting for the odds to catch up, as they always do to drivers like that, with the inevitable result. I know I am in the minority, but I'll stick to it nonetheless. Gilles was wild to watch, and on those days when it all went right was blazingly fast. But most days, he was just another driver, and sadly one for whom the only possible end was death or maiming in a racing car.

Frankly, I think Jaques is a much better driver than his dad was. Less spectacular; much more efficient day in and day out.

[Indian Chief]

Don and many others who rate him very highly, Can you honestly say that had GV not been killed, he would have been in the top 15 of the all-time great drivers? Putting him at #2 of all-time is very unfair to drivers like Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Prost, Senna and Schumacher.
IMHO, his death has meant that all his mediocre races have been consigned to the background.

[Don Capps]

Chief,

Does it really matter? Whether GV was ranked #1 or #1000 would it cause the birds not to sing? Or the sun not to shine? Or the Moon to crash into the Sun?

I find these lists meaningless for exactly the reasons you have put forth: it is literally impossible to definitively place all those drivers in an ordinal list that has any general acceptance beyond who the made the list.

There is perhaps a better argument for placing them in some sort of general categories -- Superior, Outstanding, Excellent, etc. -- that lets racers of virtually equal talent, ability, performance clump together.

Personally, that how I do it -- when forced to do it at all. I have little patience for the "X should be in 34th rather than 19th, and Y should be 19th and not 76th..." arguments. The lists tend to be personal, based on criteria that is important to whoever made the list, and so one as is good or bad as another. It is fun, and it is useful if it introduces folks to racers or thoughts about certain drivers that are new & different, but rarely earth-shaking.

Besides, looks at most lists being developed and note how heavily oriented they are towards one or another series. The greatest driver ever could have been racing in 1903 or 1925 or 1954 or 1989 or today; in a chain-drive monster, a Bugatti, a Sprint car in Iowa, an F1 car, or in NASCAR; who knows? In all likelihood, we can only have opinions.

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

[RaggedEdge]

Don Capps, yeah the concept of "giving his word" does sound strange today. In fact, today such situations are handled by e.g Michael forcing Eddie Irvine to sign a legal contract to support him. And we all remember the stick David Coulthard had when he lived up to his gentleman's agreement with Mika in Australia 1998.

About Watson being unfortunate in 1982, he was also lucky in Rio, as Rosberg was disqualified from second place in Rio (alongside with winner Piquet), which cost him dearly. The ruling was highly
controversial, since only those two were disqualifiedfor having the water cooled brakes, even though several of the drivers behind them (e.g. Watson) also used them.

[Don Capps]

RE,

Ref Rio: only zinging the top two - Piquet and Rosberg - was a calculated move to cause dissension among the FOCA ranks. It worked to a certain degree. McLaren and several others fully expected all the FOCA teams running to be DSQ. It was lure and FOCA took the bait. JMB was a bastard, but he was a smart bastard and knew his opponents better than they knew him.

I have always thought that GV would leave Ferrari after 1982. Not sure where he would have gone, but I am convinced he had decided to leave. I also think that he would have left GP/F1 within a few seasons and moved to CART. Why? The newer cars in F1 would not suit his driving style whereas the CART machines would have right up his alley. Just a thought that I have always had about all that happened that short season with GV.

I was truly amazed and very sickened at all the baloney that flew when Coulthard backed off and let Hakinnen take the win in Oz in 1998. DC gave his word and he kept it. And then got dumped on by every "expert" in F1, most of whose expertise was barely a few season old. I still think that is the epitome of what is wrong with F1: the gossip, rumors, second guessing, whining, chest-thumping, commercial interests, and general bovine exhaust (sorry but that includes all F1 fora including us, alas!) has replaced the racing as the center point of the whole exercise.

To paraphrase Lord Acton: Money Corrupts, and Absolutely Lots of Money Corrupts Absolutely.

It isn't money itself, it is the Big Money that alters things. As long as Minardi is still Minardi I will continue to support them in the hopes that they snooker the rest of them some day.

I wonder if GV, in a Stirling Moss frame of mind, would have gone to Tyrrell in 1983?

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

[RaggedEdge]

This Rio 1982 thing, I believe was a double whammy for Rosberg since didn't Williams boycot one race later in the season (perhaps San Marino?) partially because of this controversial ruling?

More about these honorary deals between drivers, I am not still fully convinced that they all were voluntary even back in the ancient history. However, certainly money was much less an issue to everybody.

Nevertheless, even Stirling Moss, who you mentioned, got some preferential treatment over his team mates, according to Nigel Roebuck (I will hunt down the name of that team mate of his).

[Don Capps]

In 1982, the FOCA teams boycotted Imola.

S.C. Moss was The Numero Uno at the Officine Alfieri Maserati & G.A. Vandervell teams from 1956-1958. Period. End of discussion, next! That is absolutely true. In most teams there was a hierarchy of drivers and it was usually adhered to, or else. And Moss was The Franchise, so that who got the max effort. It was the same back then as today: there can be only one Number One....



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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

[JayWay]

I think that what made Gilles so great, and so likeable, was not his achievments, but his heart, and love for the sport. He was born to go fast. Even if it was racing snowmobilies, Gilles loved it, and that was what he did. It was probobly at that time one of the most least glamourous forms of racing in comparison to what alot of the drivers of that time were probobly racing at Gilles age, but he still loved every moment of it. He dragged his family across Canada and back during freezing cold winters to race. And this love for speed obviously transfered to F1. I think it was cause he loved it so much that it was not so hard for him to oblige to be the #2 driver. For Gilles winning was not #1. He was satisfied knowing that he was pushing his limits. Unlike Senna in his early days who was obsessed with winning in karting, Gilles was never that competitive, he just loved to go fast. He was the definition of F1 heart I think.

Also, going a bit offtopic, someone said Jacques was not as daring as his dad. Ive always felt that Jacques (and i am a bit bias cause hes my fav driver) has been downplayed as far as his image compared to his dad. IMO, Jacques is just a daring as his dad, and if they raced together, im sure Jacques would do anything his dad did.
Jacques displays the same qualities as his dad, he cares more for pushing his limits then winning. He was the one pissed off when FIA screwed with the regs.
And its almost odd how he handled the BAR, almost mirroring his dad in the dog of a Ferrari. Brining out the limits. I recently posted about Jacques and his skills in the BAR, but I think it was erased. He pushes his cars no matter how bad, and how defective to the limt, just cause its hi snature (Look at Spa, and also when he was out of contention he still battled so hard to pass he almost lost the car coming out of the bus stop, after he said that he knew he hadnt a chance, but he still just wanted to ahave some fun. Anyways wahat im saying is him and his dad are quite similar.

Sorry if theres alot of typos, but I cant see what im typing cause when I pressed enter for some reason the screen shiften to the bottom where I cant see the window where I type.

[arttidesco]

What made GV so great is quite simple what he gave to the sport, namely entertainment and spectacle, by the boat load too.

Think French GP last four laps at Dijon 1979 in the T4 versus Arnoux in the RE20 still by far the most entertaining laps in F1 (during my life time).

Think the famous Tarzan in incident again in the T4, GV just did not know how to quit.

Think about the 1981 Spanish GP and Monaco GP's in which GV won in a car which could just as easily have failed to make the grid.

Think the 1981 Canadian GP driving in the rain, was it a third of the race distance (?), blinded by his own up turned wing before it fell off and still finishing on the podium.

Had GV lived that 1982 and the following 1983 WDC would have easily been his and if as was rumoured he was thinking of moving to McLaren for 1984, GV might have been a three time champion by the end of 1984.

In my view GV may well have been a 'rock ape' but I'd rather watch a bunch of rock apes than a bunch of Alain Prosts any day and if the rock apes never win it will not matter one iota I'll still remember the rock apes long after the book of records has been shut :-)

[uffen]

Hear, hear.
Gilles was amazing to watch - it didn't matter if it was practice, qualifying or the race. He gave it his all over every metre of track. You could feel the joy, the excitement he exuded when he was in a race car.
As Don said back in 1999, it was best to see him from trackside. I was able to do so and in 1980 at the Glen he gave me goosebumps on just about every soggy lap; and in Monaco in 1981 he was inch perfect every lap - where others left two feet to spare, he left ten inches. Hardly the precision of a "rock ape."
Statistics don't convey that stuff.

[opplock]

Those of us lucky enough to have been in the K stands at Monaco on Saturday 30th May 1981 do not question Gilles' ability. On his fastest qualifying lap he overtook Sigfried Stohr between Tabac and the swimming pool. To quote from Autocourse 1981/82 edition "his driving on Saturday was simply out of this world".

A rock ape could not have qualified 2nd at Monaco driving the Ferrari 126CK nor won the race. Teammate Pironi qualified 17th, 2.5 seconds slower.

[JtP1]

One of the things not conveyed in the above posts is while most of us were Jones or Piquet or Rosberg fans, we were in the most all Gilles V fans as well.

GV's victory at Monaco was outstanding. The race had settled down to what appeared to be a distant procession on thye tele. Then the director found GV, who was throughing his Ferrari around like a rally escort in a forest. He was from memory about 40 secs behind Jones and 40 secs up on 3rd, but that did not stop him trying to catch Jones. He did when AJ fell foul of the Williams random misfire. Btw, anyone know what caused the misfire?

[Tim Murray]

Btw, anyone know what caused the misfire?

According to DCN in Racers, after the 1981 German GP (where Jones's race had again been blighted by the misfire):

Dernie took a test car quietly away to investigate the mysterious misfire. It seemed only to occur on the team's most powerful engines in the heat of a race, never in qualifying. The precise cause was never isolated, but a change in fuel system from that which which had basically worked so well since 1979 seemed to side-step the problem.

[MCS]

...Think about the 1981 Spanish GP and Monaco GP's in which GV won in a car which could just as easily have failed to make the grid...

With all due respect, I think I would have to put this remark almost on a par with the one I saw the other day which stated that TNF wasn't a place for discussing historic motor racing!

But I did enjoy his victory at Jarama. I watched the whole race.

[arttidesco]

With all due respect, I think I would have to put this remark almost on a par with the one I saw the other day which stated that TNF wasn't a place for discussing historic motor racing!

But I did enjoy his victory at Jarama. I watched the whole race.

Maybe I should have said 'where GV won in a car which team mate Pironi could not even qualify in the top 10' :-)

Did you watch on the box or were you there in Spain ?

[MCS]

Maybe I should have said 'where GV won in a car which team mate Pironi could not even qualify in the top 10' :-)

Did you watch on the box or were you there in Spain ?

I watched it on TV, although oddly I was in Spain at the time. Welcome to TNF by the way.

[Ray Bell]

Got to agree... Jones in that car on those days would have done a good job too, not to mention Laffite and a few others...

Maybe not as good as Gilles, however. But Jones' show of power that caused Piquet to crash off the road in front of him was a lesson in itself. That he didn't win that race was a travesty, but Gilles simply didn't give up, he hounded and hounded and hauled that car around so that when Jones pitted for fuel he got the lead and went on to win.

It was a great day to be at Monaco!

Amazing I never posted on this thread before... it seems that it died out only the day before I joined up here...

[arttidesco]

I watched it on TV, although oddly I was in Spain at the time. Welcome to TNF by the way.

Thanks fpr the welcome, was just wondering about where you saw the race because I am looking for pics of Giacomelli's Alfa 179 in the 1981 Spanish GP, got some of Andretti but none of Giacomelli tried the usual sources Motor Sport, LAT, Google and racingsportscars.com Personal pics from the track & paddock but drawn a blank :-)

Got to agree... Jones in that car on those days would have done a good job too, not to mention Laffite and a few others...

Maybe not as good as Gilles, however. But Jones' show of power that caused Piquet to crash off the road in front of him was a lesson in itself. That he didn't win that race was a travesty, but Gilles simply didn't give up, he hounded and hounded and hauled that car around so that when Jones pitted for fuel he got the lead and went on to win.

It was a great day to be at Monaco!

Yes I remember Piquet crumbling under pressure from Jones, (and being quite happy about it) granted but for a misfire Jones may have won but that GV was there to pic up the pieces when AJ's car wilted was a miracle, Pironi, no slouch, Monaco pole sitter in 1980, was a lap behind GV at the end of that 1981 race.

Edited by arttidesco, 25 May 2010 - 21:58.

[Ray Bell]

I was actually lap-scoring for a magazine report and noting the gaps between them. I think AJ picked up 1.8 seconds on one lap or something, just threw in a blinder, the next time they came around Piquet was bouncing it off the rev limiter!

Another half a lap and he was into the wall...

[arttidesco]

I was actually lap-scoring for a magazine report and noting the gaps between them. I think AJ picked up 1.8 seconds on one lap or something, just threw in a blinder, the next time they came around Piquet was bouncing it off the rev limiter!

Another half a lap and he was into the wall...

As you can imagine for us folks watching on TV Murray's pants were truly on fire when that happened, and Master James was at his condescending best :-)

[Wirra]

...Another half a lap and he [Piquet] was into the wall...

Villeneuve that same weekend

[Marc Sproule]

To say I was a very lucky photog/reporter would be a massive understatement. I stumbled into the Atlantic series in '75. Saw races at Westwood, Trois Rivieres and Brainerd. Gilles really wasn't the major player at those races.

He certainly was for the next two years...the rest of his Atlantic career.

He always had that twinkle in his eye that said he knew he was getting away with something that he shouldn't.

There were times when I would see him in the paddock after a session where I'd been standing at the apex of a turn, taking snaps and hooting and hollering as Gilles and others went sliding by at full opposite lock.

On more than one occasion he said something about having seen me.

He wanted to win every lap, session and race. Ill-advised perhaps, but he pulled it off plenty often.

One year at Montreal he waved to me as I walked by in the pits. "You gotta go out to (a quick section of the track on the front side in the old configuration. You'll like it."

He was right. I especially liked it when he came sliding by full opposite lock in his Ferrari.

He may not have been the greatest racer of all time, but I reckon he was certainly one of the best drivers. He was definitely one of the most exciting to watch.

I'm including links to some of my favorite images of him. The one of the start in the wet at Westwood in '76 needs a bit more description.

As you will see, he was a bit sideways at the start. I figured the field would gobble him up as I watched them disappear into a huge cloud of spray into turn one.

The area between the front and back sides of the circuit was pretty narrow and you could hear the cars all the way around the track from one spot. I stayed on the bridge to watch the conclusion of the first lap. As the cars came up through the esses that led onto the front straight I could see the rooster tail of one car, several seconds in front of the rest.

I figured it was Tom Klausler since he had been on the front row with Gilles and appeared to have gone into the first turn with a bit of a lead on Gilles.

Wrong, It was Gilles.

There was no way in hell he could have done that but he did.

I've set up a Gilles set on flickr. Eventually it will be considerably bigger than it is now. And every time I look at the pics I'll remember how fortunate I was.

Here's the start at "Wetwood".....

http://www.flickr.co...@N03/4372238582

Here are just a few of my favorites.....

http://www.flickr.co...@N03/4383551637
http://www.flickr.co...@N03/4289237197
http://www.flickr.co...@N03/4292580846
http://www.flickr.co...@N03/4321337756
http://www.flickr.co...@N03/4314713543
http://www.flickr.co...@N03/4314727333

Here's the link to the Gilles set...
http://www.flickr.co...57624008130538/

And here's the link to my whole photostream. As you can see, I got to see a lot of the best ever.

Like I said, I was very fortunate.....

http://www.flickr.co...s/46681980@N03/

ps
There used to be a video on youtube of Gilles in a snowmobile race on an oval in a blizzard. If some one knows where to dig it up, it's well worth watching.

Edited by Marc Sproule, 26 May 2010 - 00:37.

[PCC]

Like I said, I was very fortunate.....

And now, we are the fortunate ones. Marc, I've been following your posts eagerly, and just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your stories and your photographs. Thank you, and welcome!

[Marc Sproule]

PCC:

Thank you Peter.

Comments like yours are most appreciated.

ms

[Ray Bell]

Marc, I'm also interested in knowing more about some of your experiences...

But there's something a little off-topic I'd like to ask you. Could you please e.mail me at the address below?

[MCS]

Thanks fpr the welcome, was just wondering about where you saw the race because I am looking for pics of Giacomelli's Alfa 179 in the 1981 Spanish GP, got some of Andretti but none of Giacomelli tried the usual sources Motor Sport, LAT, Google and racingsportscars.com Personal pics from the track & paddock but drawn a blank :-)

Er, from my hotel bedroom in Madrid... Keep looking for the Giacomelli pics - I'm sure something will turn up. Have you tried Sutton, Schlegelmilch, etc...?

[arttidesco]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, top GV photo's Marc

MCS I knew i had overlooked something thanks for the Sutton and Schlegelmilch tips

[Simon Arron]

To say I was a very lucky photog/reporter would be a massive understatement.

Some wonderful input here, Marc, both textual and visual. Takes me back to Thursday morning Latin lessons in the mid 1970s, reading Motoring News at the back of the classroom, lapping up the latest news from North America and seeing snaps of the Direct Film March challenging the laws of physics. At one point there was speculation that GV might come over and do an Atlantic race in Britain, which was a fantastically exciting prospect. Except, of course, that it didn't happen. I was at Silverstone in '77, though: his first grand prix was mine, too.

I have always struggled to accept the rock-ape theories. Yes, he crashed a bit in 1978, but he had relatively little experience in the overall scheme of things. He'd dialled that out by the second part of the season - and many subsequent mishaps were the consequence of car breakages. I prefer to consider the delicacy it took to coax a Routemaster bus on to the front row at Monaco in '81, just the 2.476s quicker than team-mate Didier Pironi, or the way he was able to tease extra life from the soft Michelins at Kyalami in '79, when Jody Scheckter was having tyre-wear problems on a harder compound.

Such were the hallmarks of a driver with great feel and touch. All that, and dignity too...

[Ross Stonefeld]

Amusingly I've just read the transcript of a John Watson interview where he refers to him as 'driving like a hooligan, as usual' but not in a dismissive way. Though somewhat exasperated. About Silverstone 1981, I think.

[Simon Arron]

Amusingly I've just read the transcript of a John Watson interview where he refers to him as 'driving like a hooligan, as usual' but not in a dismissive way. Though somewhat exasperated. About Silverstone 1981, I think.

Yes, Silverstone '81 was a definite exception to my theory about car failures. I was standing at Woodcote, right at the front, when that happened, although I wasn't quite as close as Wattie...

[alansart]

Amusingly I've just read the transcript of a John Watson interview where he refers to him as 'driving like a hooligan, as usual' but not in a dismissive way. Though somewhat exasperated. About Silverstone 1981, I think.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Interesting. I've never been a fan of booting the throttle when you've started spinning. It helps to keep the engine running yes, and even as the car rocks back and forth you generally stay on the tangent from which you left the racing line; but it seems terribly unwise to do it when you have cars closely following you.

I wonder if Gilles was the one who made it mainstream

[arttidesco]

Turned out to be a race winning save by 'Wattie'

Given how well GV did in Spain and Monaco I am sure Il Commendatore forgave GV the indiscreet 'hooligan' curb hop at Silverstone :-)

[Arjan de Roos]

To say I was a very lucky photog/reporter would be a massive understatement.

Indeed! Thank you for sharing Marc, great pics.

[Michael Ferner]

Given how well GV did in Spain and Monaco I am sure Il Commendatore forgave GV the indiscreet 'hooligan' curb hop at Silverstone :-)

That sums it up pretty well: Gilles could be utterly sensational, doing things few others dared to dream of, but also had many, many off days - Ferrari had certainly more than enough occasions to "forgive" him! Is that the hallmark of a "great" driver? Everyone judges for himself. Me, I was never that impressed overall, and I don't think he really was World Champion material, but having said that I did enjoy some of his streaks of genius - he could be highly entertaining! Then again, he was also a high risk taker all of the time, and to me at least it was not exactly a surprise that he ended the way he did. He was asking for it, imho.

[Michael Ferner]

The first one is easy: when Jody Scheckter came to Scuderia Ferrari, it was as Number One and the intent to win the WDC. Villeneuve accepted that and supported Scheckter in achieveing that Team although he could have probably just gone ahead and snatched the WDC from Scheckter on any number of occasions. But, he didn't because he gave his word. I fully realize that in the Modern World of What's In It For Me, that this is an alien concept, that is the only real answer.

Villeneuve had given his word to Scheckter and that was that. That is why he was so upset at what happened at Imola.

That is something that is mentioned so often, yet it doesn't stand scrutiny with an open mind. If Scheckter's status as numero uno (which I do not question) assured him of Villeneuve's assistance, then why was Gilles allowed to finish directly in front of him in the first three races? Doesn't make sense. There does appear to have been some sort of agreement that when both cars ran far ahead of the field, the second man was not allowed to challenge for the win, but if that was in place at Monaco and Monza, it surely was at Kyalami and Long Beach, too, so what gives? Some claim that Villeneuve was ahead by a clear margin both times, and Scheckter only just, but that goes only to show that Villeneuve was "show-boating", and Jody too clever for this sort of thing. Just like with Andretti and Peterson the year before or Hill and Schumacher ® in '98, if team orders are out, that means both men can slow down to save their cars, and to presume the second man could've gone faster and pass the leader is too forget that there's often a reason as to why one man is leading, and the other one not!

As for Imola in 1982, I still feel that was a genuine mistake by Villeneuve, or else it was him who was lying and deserving of contempt! There's enough evidence out there that suggests that his view of the events was wrong, i.e. there was no team orders, and no shortage of fuel. Out of respect for the man, and because of his subsequent accident, these facts were mostly hushed up, but for the enquiring mind they're still there to consider.

[Longtimefan]

I saw him race several times and I'll admit his car control at times was very impressive but I dont think he was champion material, yes he was a talented and very sadly missed 'racer' but if I am totally honest, he was an accident waiting to happen and several drivers said as much.

RIP Gilles

[KWSN - DSM]

Was he not his days Juan Pablo Montoya?

Fast as anyone on his day, had great car control, but on occasion blinded by red mist or not accepting a position in a race which was attainable, to lose it all through sheer boneheadedness?

I know he was fast, I know that he would fling the cars about in a manner we all drool to watch now. I was racing Karts at the time, and we had a race down in the southern part of the country, in the camping area words spread that he had passed, and no one, absolutely no one was surprised that it had happened. Even though getting close to adult hood at the time, and having a keen interest in F1 for many years already he was never a favorite of mine, regardless of the fact that he was racing for Ferrari.

Do I rank him? Yes and a very good driver, not a great one.

[Gabrci]

Was he not his days Juan Pablo Montoya?

Fast as anyone on his day, had great car control, but on occasion blinded by red mist or not accepting a position in a race which was attainable, to lose it all through sheer boneheadedness?

While there are clear similarities, I think there are also some differences. Montoya had a poor attitude as a competitor, calling everyone *ing idiot instead of going to the gym and having less burgers, and caused many stupid accidents with other drivers, while Gilles I think was a very fair opponent, even if, as Murray has said, "wonderfully uncomplicated".

[Ross Stonefeld]

But drivers lived pretty 'hard' in Gilles day too. I always thought Montoya was the new Alesi, who was the new Villeneuve, etc. The latter two were far removed from eras they would have been more suitable in.

[KWSN - DSM]

But drivers lived pretty 'hard' in Gilles day too. I always thought Montoya was the new Alesi, who was the new Villeneuve, etc. The latter two were far removed from eras they would have been more suitable in.

I concur.

[Bob Riebe]

Gilles was a racers racer.
Back when snowmobile racing was very big business (adjusted for inflation the money spent was in the millions) a race was held on the Milwaukee Mile.

Gilles was racing the rear-engine Alloutte he designed.
He had troubles in the heat races so he did not qualify for the final.
Well to Gilles there were rules and his rules.

He drove out on the track for the final anyway and won. (One of the few races it actually finished) OF course he was disqualified but he put on a show for his team and probably help sell some Allouttes.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 26 May 2010 - 19:17.

[MCS]

What a great story. And one you could easily imagine.

Does anybody remember the Catchpole cartoon in Autosport where he was depicted finishing a race on foot with just his Ferrari cockpit surround for company?!!

[Tim Murray]

I think Barry Foley must have been a Villeneuve fan. My favourite 'Villeneuve' Catchpole came out after the 1980 Argentine GP:

Catchpole (to Mad Dog, who's reading a motoring paper): 'Come on. I can't wait. Where did Gilles Villeneuve finish?'
Mad Dog: 'Villeneuve? He had a steering failure at a hundred miles an hour and crashed head on into the Armco barrier.'
Catchpole: 'Yes, yes. I know all that. But did he win?'

[JtP1]

Amusingly I've just read the transcript of a John Watson interview where he refers to him as 'driving like a hooligan, as usual' but not in a dismissive way. Though somewhat exasperated. About Silverstone 1981, I think.

GV might have been driving like a hooligan in Watson's view, but I suspect Watson had more accidents from driver error than GV.

[jj2728]

I witnessed his wins at Monaco and Spain and thought they were pretty remarkable.