84 replies to this topic

[Lorran]

Of course I know that the drivers test different things However, he has been behind Kimi, Montoya and Pedro EVERY SINGLE TIME!!

Out of all of his tests this year I think he has been ahead of his team-mates only twice and that was only because they had car failures. His situation is unique amoung the "top drivers" in F1. The most logical conclusion is that his is simply slower than Kimi, Montoya and Pedro.

However, if Mclaren gives him a race seat this year then my analysis is probably wrong.

[PhilKerr]

How much more experience of driving F1 cars do Kimi, Montoya and De La Rosa have compared with Paffett ?

If he is slow this time next year then start worrying but way too early

[se7en_24]

The other thing is that the best test drivers are not the ones that go the quickest, but the ones that drive most consistently, something Gary has been praised for. Theres no point driving flat out and making mistakes because that will give the engineers nothing.

[yosssi]

Originally posted by PhilKerr
How much more experience of driving F1 cars do Kimi, Montoya and De La Rosa have compared with Paffett ?

If he is slow this time next year then start worrying but way too early

And kubicA?

[Lorran]

Exactly Yosssi! Perfect example. Kubica has been as fast/comparable to his team-mates from very early on. He is also praised for his consistancy and lack of mistakes.

[Nukle]

He has never been faster than Pedro, Kimi or JPM but somepeople wants him to replace JPM instead of PDLR

[BuzzingHornet]

Yeah buit McLaren DIDN'T do that... which would have been a nuts move. Choosing de la Rosa was a no-brainer.

[Earthling]

Yea, they should have brought Mika Salo back to replace Montoya than PDLR or Paffet...

[BuzzingHornet]

I'd 100 x rather have Mika Hakkinen

[Hyatt]

Originally posted by BuzzingHornet
I'd 100 x rather have Mika Hakkinen

Mika Hakkinen was nowhere when the car wasnt perfect++ ...

[BuzzingHornet]

LOL
Thats absolute bollox m8. He made many a crap McLaren look pretty good... and when the car was anywhere near perfect, he destroyed everyone.

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by BuzzingHornet
I'd 100 x rather have Mika Hakkinen

Well Gary killed Mika in DTM....

[klover]

It's all part of a plot masterminded by the Spanish Inquisition. First they get in Alonso, upsetting Kimi to the point he wants to leave, then oust the 2nd coming of Senna in order to hook up Pedro with a seat. Next year the team will move to Palma and the main sponsor will be Jamon Iberico

[Earthling]

Originally posted by se7en_24
Well Gary killed Mika in DTM....

When Mika was a rookie in DTM and has been out of racing since 2001...

[Dudley]

Originally posted by Hyatt


Mika Hakkinen was nowhere when the car wasnt perfect++ ...

He must have driven a couple of very perfect Lotus cars then.

[Lifew12]

Unfortunately we do not know what programmes, what aims, and what instructions Paffett has been given. We do know that his experience of the '21 is limited (he is still often seen in a '20) and that he is notm in truth, several seconds a lap slower than the other drivers.

Kubica is a different exmple altogether; he's not just good, he's very, very good. Look for him to be one of the true stars of F1 future.

[Imperial]

If there was one thing I would wish to be banned from discussion on this board it would be the subject of test times used as a driver comparison.

[Corners]

Originally posted by se7en_24
The other thing is that the best test drivers are not the ones that go the quickest, but the ones that drive most consistently, something Gary has been praised for. Theres no point driving flat out and making mistakes because that will give the engineers nothing.

I disagree, the driver will need to know his ultimate pace regardless of what the test program is at some point. Yes it is too early for that opportunity to have arisen perhaps but he and the team will need to know his ultimate pace sooner or later and how long it takes him to get there.

[yosssi]

Originally posted by Imperial
If there was one thing I would wish to be banned from discussion on this board it would be the subject of test times used as a driver comparison.

1 day is stupid comparasion yes... but always always

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by Earthling


When Mika was a rookie in DTM and has been out of racing since 2001...

If he'd improved considerably since joining DTM then you might have a point against my argument to buzzin hornet. Alas he has not.

Mika was great, but he retired from F1 5 years ago now, to suggest he would make a good replacement for JPM is just crazy. It would be more embarrassing than Mansell in 1995.

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by Dudley
He must have driven a couple of very perfect Lotus cars then.

Well, Mika certainly upped Johnny Herbert's market value while they were teammates.

[4MEN]

Originally posted by klover
It's all part of a plot masterminded by the Spanish Inquisition. First they get in Alonso, upsetting Kimi to the point he wants to leave, then oust the 2nd coming of Senna in order to hook up Pedro with a seat. Next year the team will move to Palma and the main sponsor will be Jamon Iberico

Do you think your comment is funny? I think it's stupid.

[BuzzingHornet]

Seriously, I reckon Ron will re-sign Mansell

[Rexx Havoc]

. It would be more embarrassing than Mansell in 1995. [/B]

or J.V. in '04

[skonks]

probably because he's slower than KR, JPM, PDR?

[Lorran]

Round one in the shootout (18th July 2006) between Pedro and Gary goes clearly to Pedro. That's despite Gary having much more running time.

Maybe DTM has dulled Gary's reflexes. If Gary is 3-4 tenths slower than Pedro, that would make him 6-9 tenths slower than Kimi. This has been more or less reflected in testing all year.

[Lorran]

As of halftime today: -

renault blog

1 DE LA ROSA McLaren 1'18.050 45
2 DAVIDSON Honda 1'18.358 48
3 HEIKKI Renault 1'18.495 60
4 KUBICA BMW 1'18.750 50
5 BUTTON Honda 1'19.068 32
6 PANIS Toyota 1'19.140 45
7 WURZ Williams 1'19.142 38
8 ZONTA Toyota 1'19.258 60
9 J-Lo Renault 1'19.403 42
10 PAFFETT McLaren 1'19.499 37
11 HEIDFIELD BMW 1'19.910 44
12 JANI Toro Rosso 1'20.357 38
13 COULTHARD Red Bull 1'20.405 31
14 DOORNBOS Red Bull 1'20.757 14
15 MONDINI Midland 1'21.304 41

[BuzzingHornet]

How embarassing... to be outpaced by J-Lo...

[dujshebaev]

TIEMPOS DE HOY: 1.-Pedro de la Rosa (McLaren) 1.17.547 (85v) 2.-H. Kovalainen (Renault) 1.18.029
(128v) 3.-A. Davidson (Honda) 1.18.200 (107v) 4.-Jenson Button (Honda) 1.18.273 (82v) 5.-Gary
Paffett (Mclaren) 1.18.518 (93v) 6.-Robert Kubica (BMW-Sauber) 1.18.753 (82v) 7.-Robert Doornbos
(Red Bull Racing) 1.18.982 (52v) 8.-Ricardo Zonta (Toyota) 1.18.986 (123v) 9.-Alex Wurz (Williams)
1.19.140 (93v) 10.-Olivier Panis (Toyota) 1.19.143 (103v) 11.-José Maria López (Renault) 1.19.394
(87v) 12.-David Coulthard (Red Bull Racing) 1.19.459 (65v) 13.-Nick Heidfeld (BMW-Sauber) 1.19.560
(96v) 14.-Neel Jani (Toro Rosso) 1.20.379 (51v) 15.-Giorgio Mondini (Midland Racing) 1.21.041 (85v)

From:
http://www.circuitod.../nprensa466.pdf

De la Rosa : 1.17.5 (85 laps)
Paffet: 1.18.5 (85 laps)

They will say they are testing different setups and different compounds...but, I can't understand all this lobby from brittish press for give Paffet PDLR's seat.

They tried the same in 2003 with Alonso and Button...

[Peter Perfect]

Originally posted by dujshebaev
TIEMPOS DE HOY: 1.-Pedro de la Rosa (McLaren) 1.17.547 (85v) 2.-H. Kovalainen (Renault) 1.18.029
(128v) 3.-A. Davidson (Honda) 1.18.200 (107v) 4.-Jenson Button (Honda) 1.18.273 (82v) 5.-Gary
Paffett (Mclaren) 1.18.518 (93v) 6.-Robert Kubica (BMW-Sauber) 1.18.753 (82v) 7.-Robert Doornbos
(Red Bull Racing) 1.18.982 (52v) 8.-Ricardo Zonta (Toyota) 1.18.986 (123v) 9.-Alex Wurz (Williams)
1.19.140 (93v) 10.-Olivier Panis (Toyota) 1.19.143 (103v) 11.-José Maria López (Renault) 1.19.394
(87v) 12.-David Coulthard (Red Bull Racing) 1.19.459 (65v) 13.-Nick Heidfeld (BMW-Sauber) 1.19.560
(96v) 14.-Neel Jani (Toro Rosso) 1.20.379 (51v) 15.-Giorgio Mondini (Midland Racing) 1.21.041 (85v)

From:
http://www.circuitod.../nprensa466.pdf

De la Rosa : 1.17.5 (85 laps)
Paffet: 1.18.5 (85 laps)

They will say they are testing different setups and different compounds...but, I can't understand all this lobby from brittish press for give Paffet PDLR's seat.

They tried the same in 2003 with Alonso and Button...

Why would they be testing the same setups and compounds?
And you can't understand why the British press would want a British driver?


..and it was never going to work in 2003 as Alonso was always going to get Buttons seat no matter how Button performed. It had been planned for a few years.

[se7en_24]

And so another piece of Gary's F1 jigsaw is in place - he now has his own bashers.;)

[Peter Perfect]

Originally posted by se7en_24
And so another piece of Gary's F1 jigsaw is in place - he now has his own bashers.;)

[cavallinö]

Ok I have checked the detailed times for Jerez in the last two days, and in the past. Paffett is slower in his best lap and slower over longer stints. I cannot see how this can just be a testing anomaly.

[RuB]

The press always support their countrymates, its obvious.

The problem here is all about team politics, everyone knows PDLR will do better than Gary but Mclaren is pushing Mercedes to put Paffet ASAP, but Mercedes wants to keep PDLR for the rest of the season.

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by RuB
The problem here is all about team politics, everyone knows PDLR will do better than Gary but Mclaren is pushing Mercedes to put Paffet ASAP, but Mercedes wants to keep PDLR for the rest of the season.

This really shows how little you know. Gary has always been a Mercedes protege, and Norbert Haug is a huge fan of his - Merc are the ONLY reason Gary has been able to get into Mclaren. If anything I'd say it would be Mclaren that are more reluctant to get him in the race car than Mercedes.

[Tmeranda]

You have no idea what they are testing and who is testing what and who has what fuel level. Testing times only mean something the team engineers who know what the vairables are.

[stalix]

Originally posted by Tmeranda
You have no idea what they are testing and who is testing what and who has what fuel level. Testing times only mean something the team engineers who know what the vairables are.

yea but gary always is more slow that of his team mate

[jb_128]

Originally posted by se7en_24
This really shows how little you know. Gary has always been a Mercedes protege, and Norbert Haug is a huge fan of his - Merc are the ONLY reason Gary has been able to get into Mclaren.

Not only that, Paffet is the ONLY reason that Mercedes didn't have to bow to Audi in '05 and that's with people like Schneider, Alesi and Hakkinen on the team. And even in '04 he almost beat Ekström, in his first "proper" season of DTM in which he also won the season opener.

While his lack of testing pace is indeed a bit concerning I absolutely believe that he deserves a chance in F1, as anybody who has actually been following his progress through F3 and DTM will agree. And especially the British motoring press, who are ever whining about Jenson not winning races should have done more to promote Paffett then there wouldn't be so much doubt about him.

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by jb_128
Not only that, Paffet is the ONLY reason that Mercedes didn't have to bow to Audi in '05 and that's with people like Schneider, Alesi and Hakkinen on the team. And even in '04 he almost beat Ekström, in his first "proper" season of DTM in which he also won the season opener.

The funny thing is that Schneider and Albers looked really good in DTM until Paffett came along, then they were made to look mediocre and Paffett really wrenched the 1st driver status from them. Albers somehow gets into F1, Paffett leaves DTM after winning and suddenly Schneider looks competitive again.... hmmmmmm

[FFYM]

Maybe Paffett should return to DTM?

[jb_128]

Originally posted by FFYM
Maybe Paffett should return to DTM?

Why? He's already won it. Maybe he should try F1 first?

[Corners]

I haven't seen Kubica go slow anywhere yet ?

[Aramchek]

I think you can try to look at it from any point of view, with some coloured lens if you prefer, but the fact is that De la Rosa has shown to be much faster than Parfett.

[Cotchin]

Well, you expect him to go fast in testing. Maybe he expects you to atleast spell his name right... I dunno.

[FFYM]

Originally posted by Cotchin
Maybe he expects you to atleast spell his name right... I dunno.

Take it easy mate...

[PassWind]

Originally posted by Lifew12
Unfortunately we do not know what programmes, what aims, and what instructions Paffett has been given. We do know that his experience of the '21 is limited (he is still often seen in a '20) and that he is notm in truth, several seconds a lap slower than the other drivers.

Kubica is a different exmple altogether; he's not just good, he's very, very good. Look for him to be one of the true stars of F1 future.

Well the above post nearly hits the nail on the head, and people who say they can't understand should go and do just a fraction of research before they claim Gary is slow. Because you can't understand something does not make any further assumptions fact.

Facts are that McLaren run a tiered testing system that is based on experience and testing requirements. Drivers are allocated their duties based on those parameters. McLaren already know what their drivers are capable of doing, the testing they do has little or nothing to do with their outright speed unless they are told to do it, the things they do get out of it are "does driver X perfrom as instructed and is therefore disciplined and focused on making team objectives"

Anyone with an inkling of the McLaren way knows RD runs his ship with military precision, he likes very structured systems to achieve performance goals.

Now thats out of the way Gary has been driving the endurance program for McLaren. PDLR is responsible for the Performance program.


From Whitmarsh

"Paffett has been going through a carefully worked out familiarisation programme with McLaren, only recently moving from the 'endurance stage' - engines and tyres - to performance work."

Now considering the dominance of the BS tyre you can also assume there is some tyre work to be done this week. Of the two testers it is then logical that PDLR conduct performance testing and Gary who has been the guy during the endurance stuff continue with his work on tyres.


Guess what that may mean he is driving 9/10th's all the time because his work requires him too. Good news is that we should soon see what Gary is capable of if allowed to run performance testing. BUT that might not happen for awhile now because of JPM leaving and the team will adjust and run the testing to suit their program not to satisfy the fanboy theorists on forums.


Now I am not a fan of Gary so I have no cross to bear, but assumptions based on time sheets in testing are absolutely pointless unless you know what program that team is running for that guy. Give him a break he is doing his job.

[Nathan]

Originally posted by PhilKerr
How much more experience of driving F1 cars do Kimi, Montoya and De La Rosa have compared with Paffett ?

If he is slow this time next year then start worrying but way too early

It took Kimi two test sessions to be completely on the ball and the fastest he and driven before was a Formula Renault. You shouldn't have to wait that long.

[HP]

Originally posted by PassWind




From Whitmarsh

"Paffett has been going through a carefully worked out familiarisation programme with McLaren, only recently moving from the 'endurance stage' - engines and tyres - to performance work."

Any team does like to build confidence into their drivers. And that includes them to occasionally be on the top of the timing sheets. Since Paffett according to Whitmarsh's quote has been moving from endurance stage to performance stage, I'd like to know why are his performances still the same?

If the driver is good enough for testing, but not outright fast, then you could come up with something that Whitmarsh says.

But let's not forget either that De La Rosa is now driving on weekends, so that could mean further reshuffle of testing objectives. And right now for McLaren, according to their PR, the focus is on speed, the reliability is there. But still Paffett is slow.

Sorry IMO Paffett is a complete no hopper for a F1 seat, despite that he must have some qualities as a car tester. I'm looking forward to see Hamilton.

NB: It looks like Kimi doesn't test either these days (A sure sign he's out of Mclaren, no?)

[gerry nassar]

HP I suspect there will be no more testing for Kimi. Everything Mclaren have said in the last few weeks indicate that Kimi will either be at Renault or Ferrari.

I dont see Paffett driving at Mclaren unless he needs to act as a sub. He seems to be in the Gene/Badoer mold. Solid tester but not expected to shine in the races.

[PassWind]

Originally posted by HP
Any team does like to build confidence into their drivers. And that includes them to occasionally be on the top of the timing sheets. Since Paffett according to Whitmarsh's quote has been moving from endurance stage to performance stage, I'd like to know why are his performances still the same?

If the driver is good enough for testing, but not outright fast, then you could come up with something that Whitmarsh says.

But let's not forget either that De La Rosa is now driving on weekends, so that could mean further reshuffle of testing objectives. And right now for McLaren the focus is be on speed, the reliability is there. But still Paffett is slow.

Sorry IMO Paffett is a complete no hopper for a F1 seat, despite that he must have some qualities as a car tester. I'm looking forward to see Hamilton.

NB: It looks like Kimi doesn't test either these days (A sure sign he's out of Mclaren, no?)

So it all boils down to your assumption that he is performance testing and isn't setting times. Mine was an explanation of why test results have no absolutes. Not an analysis of Gary's speed. I choose not to judge because of the nature of testing and in particular McLarens testing.

Whitmarsh said one line in an interview so we automatically assume then that Gary is doing X at testing. Thats a pretty wild assumption although I can see why one would, but balance the dynamic nature of F1 and absolutes and we should recognise that the words said one day are unreliable sources within hours of statement because things change so quickly.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/53250

The link is for the whole article which has other snippets which may or may not address your assumptions, someone else here mentioned Kimi was straight up to speed. EDITED I misread the posters comment.

And yes your suggestion that testing objectives may change is I think correct because of the driver situation but your assumptions of what the McLaren Teams objectives are is in fact a guess and IMO illogical.

Speed is not going to win you an F1 race. Outright single lap pace is only important for one thing and that is qualifying, so out of the two drivers testing who is the more logical to be doing that? PDLR because he is the one required to perform the Qualy in racing conditions. So the change may be that Gary is reverting back to endurance.

Now talk real speed and that race pace, it is very much McLarens main effort because they have been lacking in comparsion to Ferrari on BS. Gary has been doing the endurance tyre testing so is it not logical when you allocate resource to task that you pick the current best tools for the Job? PDLR for performance testing and Gary to try and improve the long run tyre performance.


There are testing day times where Gary is within tenths of KR, JPM, PDLR. Times where he is ahead of them at varying stages. Still means not alot.

IMHO however, Gary is not the next big thing, else he would have been driven by now. But we should not forget the calibre of driver McLaren has enjoyed in the period he has been testing. Proven drivers unlikely to be displaced by any newcomer, regardless of testing speed.