284 replies to this topic

[FFYM]

What are you saying???

Do you thing Ferrari is worried for McLaren money???. Are you kidding? With less money, Renault, Toyota, Honda, etc... can be in the same level. With money, one problem, without money, 10 problems...

Please, no mere stupid antiferrari behavior.

[ali_M]

Originally posted by armonico


You are implying that Alonso hasn't fought enough so far to deserve his position in the championship while Schumacher has fouhgt very hard to bring the gap down. I put some examples of Schumacher settling for second when his car wasn't enough to win and therefore the gap between them increased. Why didn't Michael try harder to win for the gap to be reduced instead of being increased?

I'm happy you say that I *implied*, since that's all that you could really say/claim. Well, for the third time, I'm saying that this is not what I meant. Are you disappointed or something? I guess it's better for you to insist?

[ali_M]

Originally posted by prty


The only way to measure a driver performance is how well he does against his team mate. And Alonso had a biggest gap with his than Schumacher.

... and we've seen over and over again that there are issues even with that, though this is the best of the lot method of comparing.

- each driver has his own style and the car may just suite one persons style as opposed to another.

Yes, the great drivers tend to be less sensitive to how cars handle and tend to just drive, even better than the average, though not as comfortably as they would if the car were more suited to their liking.

- See Rubens and Button

- See Kimi and Montoya

The question is how Massa is doing now after all these years and now in a Ferrari? It was a few years back that he drove with Fisi in a Sauber.

[DCult]

Originally posted by FFYM
What are you saying???

Do you thing Ferrari is worried for McLaren money???. Are you kidding? With less money, Renault, Toyota, Honda, etc... can be in the same level. With money, one problem, without money, 10 problems...

Please, no mere stupid antiferrari behavior.

Yes, Ferrari is worried about Mecedes engine development, as are many other teams. Ferrari forced the V8 change, because they the were surpassed and didn't have spare money to support the V10 development. They did the same with the Beryllium ban in 2000. You may live in your "Ferrari is always the best team" world, but the fact that McLaren has always been a top 3 team for two decades now, reveales a lot imo.

[prty]

Originally posted by ali_M


... and we've seen over and over again that there are issues even with that, though this is the best of the lot method of comparing.

- each driver has his own style and the car may just suite one persons style as opposed to another.

Yes, the great drivers tend to be less sensitive to how cars handle and tend to just drive, even better than the average, though not as comfortably as they would if the car were more suited to their liking.

- See Rubens and Button

- See Kimi and Montoya

The question is how Massa is doing now after all these years and now in a Ferrari? It was a few years back that he drove with Fisi in a Sauber.

Montoya and Fisichella before being paired to Raikkonen and Alonso were rated very high. Fisichella the cannibal and Montoya the greatest talent. I recall seeing comments about Massa like "now Ferrari would put anything in their cars". Needless to say how Montoya and Fisichella did and how Massa is doing. Yes styles and that... I remember Fisi saying in the pre season that this years car completely suit his style. Montoya also said this year he drove the car instead of the car driving him. And I don't remember Massa saying anything like that. Yet Montoya is in Nascar and Fisi is where he is. In their second year. Massa in his first year is already closer to Schumacher.

And what about Rubens and Button? Was it a secret that Button was not very good?

[FFYM]

Nobody is talking that ****...

I'm not worried for Ferrari - McLaren because they're always on top. You may feel worried for the "new" teams.

I'm a williams fan, but I don't blame Ferrari for our faults. So many people is always thinking in Ferrari... Ohhhhh Ferrari crah my season with cheats... Ooohhh my god!!!...

Always searching conspirations!!!

[Buttoneer]

Originally posted by DCult

but the fact that McLaren has always been a top 3 team for two decades now, reveales a lot imo.

Excepting 2004, of course...

[DCult]

Originally posted by Buttoneer


Excepting 2004, of course...

Sure. Their extreme engineering philosophy has bitten them back the most in the MP18A case.

[yr]

Originally posted by prty


The only way to measure a driver performance is how well he does against his team mate. And Alonso had a biggest gap with his than Schumacher.

Fisi just can not perform with a top car. His showings in Renault are probably on the level with what he could do today in Williams or in BMW if he´s without pressure (save those two wins). He just can´t take the pressure of driving in the best team at the moment. Why do you think that you can draw any conclusions by "Alonso having a bigger gap than MS to his team mate"? thats ridiculous. That statement requires two absolutely equally performing #2 drivers in Ferrari and Renault. If Fisi underperforms massively (like he does) then of course FA has bigger gap to him than what MS has to Massa who is probably driving on his own true level.

[as65p]

Originally posted by yr


Fisi just can not perform with a top car. His showings in Renault are probably on the level with what he could do today in Williams or in BMW if he´s without pressure (save those two wins). He just can´t take the pressure of driving in the best team at the moment. Why do you think that you can draw any conclusions by "Alonso having a bigger gap than MS to his team mate"? thats ridiculous. That statement requires two absolutely equally performing #2 drivers in Ferrari and Renault. If Fisi underperforms massively (like he does) then of course FA has bigger gap to him than what MS has to Massa who is probably driving on his own true level.

all this according to the 1st rule from the holy MS fanboy book:
"The Master can not and shall not be beaten by mere mortals. If any of those lesser life forms runs him close we will dig long and deep in our quest for excuses and no facts nor good reason will stand in our way!"

[carbonfibre]

Btw i think this is why Felipe was so slow in his 2nd/3th stint where he lost those 14 sec on Michael:

"Used tyres suffer less from graining, but Schumacher was good at letting them cool whenever he felt he had stressed them too much, thus preventing overheating problems," explained Suganuma.

From the frontpage article (bridgestone). I think Massa just cooked his tyres and that caused his 14 sec loss on Michael. Michael was more carefull with the tyres.

[armonico]

Originally posted by ali_M


I'm happy you say that I *implied*, since that's all that you could really say/claim. Well, for the third time, I'm saying that this is not what I meant. Are you disappointed or something? I guess it's better for you to insist?

I understood you like an exciting championship going race by race with a last do or die decided race championship like in 2000 or 2003.

However, hoping an Alonso dfn to get what you want is not sportsmanlike. You should complain more about Ferrari and Michael mistakes, especially the Monaco one, what is the main reason for their current position in both championships.

[yr]

Originally posted by as65p


all this according to the 1st rule from the holy MS fanboy book:
"The Master can not and shall not be beaten by mere mortals. If any of those lesser life forms runs him close we will dig long and deep in our quest for excuses and no facts nor good reason will stand in our way!"

Don´t know about that really, I´m not familiar with that book. But from the book of "ABC of a most simple locig there is" I found a chapter where it was said "if someone performs way bellow his true ability, one shoud never use this underperformer as a yardstick in any situation, never" I agree with that

[prty]

Originally posted by yr


Fisi just can not perform with a top car. His showings in Renault are probably on the level with what he could do today in Williams or in BMW if he´s without pressure (save those two wins). He just can´t take the pressure of driving in the best team at the moment. Why do you think that you can draw any conclusions by "Alonso having a bigger gap than MS to his team mate"? thats ridiculous. That statement requires two absolutely equally performing #2 drivers in Ferrari and Renault. If Fisi underperforms massively (like he does) then of course FA has bigger gap to him than what MS has to Massa who is probably driving on his own true level.

But how do you know Fisi is underperforming and Massa isn't? If we could only see Montoya in 2004 before he joined McLaren, we could come to the same conclusion: he can't perform with a top car. From bpl:

He has not matched Fernando's performance, perhaps, but has shown that he is capable of doing the job for the team (Indy), bouncing back from disappointments that would seriously knock other drivers - and driving exceptionally quickly. It's hard for me to understand the logic that simply blames Fisico for not being Fernando...

[Vilenova]

Well Alonzo has said that Schumacher benefited from Massa's work and that he races alone. In other words, Fisi isn't helping. He has a point I guess.

By that comment, it looks like he may be getting a little rattled by Ferarri's resurgence.



So if Renault can't get Kimi and can't poach Alonzo back from Mac, they won't have a top level driver next year because there is only 3 drivers at that level currently. (KR, FA, MS)

[as65p]

Originally posted by yr


Don´t know about that really, I´m not familiar with that book. But from the book of "ABC of a most simple locig there is" I found a chapter where it was said "if someone performs way bellow his true ability, one shoud never use this underperformer as a yardstick in any situation, never" I agree with that

But the real question is: how do you (or we) know which one underperforms. Of course it may be so, but frankly I can see no real indication that GF does not drive to his potential - other then the gap to FA being quite big at times. So why can't it be that Alonso really ist that good? Just because it makes MS look less then impressive against Massa?

Generally this true / hidden potential thing is a fluke: the potential of a driver is what you see at any given point in time in the exact circumstances of that time. His potential may be greater the next day or the next week or whatever, it doesn't really matter.
You maybe can't draw final conclusions from one or two weekends but after one and a half year there is little room left for interpretation. This goes for FA vs. GF as well as for KR vs. JPM.

[yr]

Originally posted by prty


But how do you know Fisi is underperforming and Massa isn't? If we could only see Montoya in 2004 before he joined McLaren, we could come to the same conclusion: he can't perform with a top car. From bpl:

Fisi has sort of destroyed most of his team mates so far, Alonso is totally destroing Fisi now. But if Trulli was so close to FA, actually beating him in points, qual etc. howcome can the "cannibal" be so far behind FA now, if he doesn´t underperform? I know that Alonso was a bit faster than Trulli in 04, but still, Trulli was at least playing in the same ball park as Alonso. Fisi is a thousend miles away from that park, is Fisi really that far behind Trulli in terms of talent?

The only race where Fisi has been better than FA is Indy, in all other races he has been... well, like he was driving a totally different car, a car from midfield, that is. There can be two reasons for this, either Fisi is underperforming which I belive, or Renault is a Midfieldish car but in that case of course Trulli is second best driver on the grid.

[yr]

Originally posted by as65p


But the real question is: how do you (or we) know which one underperforms. Of course it may be so, but frankly I can see no real indication that GF does not drive to his potential - other then the gap to FA being quite big at times. So why can't it be that Alonso really ist that good? Just because it makes MS look less then impressive against Massa?

Generally this true / hidden potential thing is a fluke: the potential of a driver is what you see at any given point in time in the exact circumstances of that time. His potential may be greater the next day or the next week or whatever, it doesn't really matter.
You maybe can't draw final conclusions from one or two weekends but after one and a half year there is little room left for interpretation. This goes for FA vs. GF as well as for KR vs. JPM.

Well, as Spunout has explained in several different threads, JPM never was much faster/better than Ralf at Williams. Then he came to Mclaren and was always way behind KR (save few races last season where they were quite equal), so actually JPM never showed in F1 that kind of potential which would make people rate him among the very best, sure he had loads of fans already when he entered in F1 and was hyped up accordingly, but if we talk about what he showed in F1, then it was: equal(ish) with Ralf, way behind Kimi. That´s not a day or week, but his whole F1 career.

Fisi OTH has had made a career of beating the crap out of his team mates since he first came in F1 untill he joined top team and had FA in the same team. Now I wouldnt have a problem with that if Fisi was consitantly within, say, .2 or .3 sec of FA in qual and if he could get the podium finish a bit more often than thrice a year with a car that his team mate wins races week in week out. FA is for sure better driver than Fisi, but the gap is too big for being just Alonso´s brilliance, an avarage Fisi´s weekend in Renault has quite frankly not been far away from a midfield-team perfomance. That´s what I call underperforming.

[prty]

Originally posted by yr


Fisi has sort of destroyed most of his team mates so far, Alonso is totally destroing Fisi now. But if Trulli was so close to FA, actually beating him in points, qual etc. howcome can the "cannibal" be so far behind FA now, if he doesn´t underperform? I know that Alonso was a bit faster than Trulli in 04, but still, Trulli was at least playing in the same ball park as Alonso. Fisi is a thousend miles away from that park, is Fisi really that far behind Trulli in terms of talent?

The only race where Fisi has been better than FA is Indy, in all other races he has been... well, like he was driving a totally different car, a car from midfield, that is. There can be two reasons for this, either Fisi is underperforming which I belive, or Renault is a Midfieldish car but in that case of course Trulli is second best driver on the grid.

IIRC Trulli (considered one of the best qualifyers by many) and Alonso were equal in qualifying, and that says a little... In races Alonso was faster in most and equal in a few. Alonso got his DNF while leading or fighting for the podium while Trulli had his outside the points or in places like 8th. That's why Trulli ended up with 1 point more before he got sacked. May I remember you where was Trulli a few races away from his departure... exactly the same as Fisi or probably worse (he didn't score a single point). And the R24 was a really difficult car to drive. In 2003 Alonso beat Trulli clearly so I don't know how do you come to the conclusion "Trulli was at least playing in the same ball park as Alonso". But that has been discussed a lot of times.

Also, in the last races of 2004 the difference with Trulli was that big that he said he didn't have an equal car to Alonso to justify it. Back then it looked reasonable. The next year Fisichella enters the team and the excuse raises again. Then this year on the opposite position (Fernando leaving the team, if anything he doesn't get all the help he needs, while Fisi is staying) and the gap is the same.

How can Fisichella underperform after two years, especially after saying that now the car really suit him, and as he said, he is driving better than ever.

There is a reason left: Alonso is better than Fisichella and Trulli. Trulli is like Ralf, on his day he probably is one of the best drivers, and Fisi is behind Trulli then. The problem is he isn't constantly getting those days.

[as65p]

Originally posted by yr


Well, as Spunout has explained in several different threads, JPM never was much faster/better than Ralf at Williams. Then he came to Mclaren and was always way behind KR (save few races last season where they were quite equal), so actually JPM never showed in F1 that kind of potential which would make people rate him among the very best, sure he had loads of fans already when he entered in F1 and was hyped up accordingly, but if we talk about what he showed in F1, then it was: equal(ish) with Ralf, way behind Kimi. That´s not a day or week, but his whole F1 career.

Fisi OTH has had made a career of beating the crap out of his team mates since he first came in F1 untill he joined top team and had FA in the same team. Now I wouldnt have a problem with that if Fisi was consitantly within, say, .2 or .3 sec of FA in qual and if he could get the podium finish a bit more often than thrice a year with a car that his team mate wins races week in week out. That´s what I call underperforming.

Sorry but you don't make sense: I fail to see how Fisi beating (and not exactly "the crap out of them") middle-class or rookie teammates (RS at that time) is any different to JPM narrowly beating an upper-middleclass teammate and actual race winner (RS at Williams).
GF/JPM both proved that they can fight at the top - and both showed that they fall short when paired with the very best. Simple as that.
Actually I can imagine how you feel, because I always had a soft spot for JPM and really wished he could have fought KR tooth and nail. But that does not change the facts: After 24 (?) races there are no excuses left. Not for JPM and not for GF. Just face the truth, it makes life easier ;)...

[yr]

Originally posted by prty


How can Fisichella underperform after two years, especially after saying that now the car really suit him, and as he said, he is driving better than ever.

There is a reason left: Alonso is better than Fisichella and Trulli. Trulli is like Ralf, on his day he probably is one of the best drivers, and Fisi is behind Trulli then. The problem is he isn't constantly getting those days.

Do you seriously expect anything else from Fisi than saying "he is driving better than ever"? you think he would say "I am actually much better than it looks like, I just can´t perform in a top team with a top car, there´s so much pressure on me"?

Like I already said, Alonso is better than Fisi (or Trulli), but if a driver has been in midfield cars at least .5 up to 1.0 sec faster continuosly than Trullis and Buttons of this world and in top team he is same amount slower than his team mate then something doesnt add up. Makes me think he has some problems when there is some pressure. With a little exaggerate I could say based on that, that Alonso is 1-2 secs faster than Button for example. In a modern F1 car there really isn´t 2 secs differences between team mates if they both do their job properly.

[yr]

Originally posted by as65p


Sorry but you don't make sense: I fail to see how Fisi beating (and not exactly "the crap out of them") middle-class or rookie teammates (RS at that time) is any different to JPM narrowly beating an upper-middleclass teammate and actual race winner (RS at Williams).
GF/JPM both proved that they can fight at the top - and both showed that they fall short when paired with the very best. Simple as that.
Actually I can imagine how you feel, because I always had a soft spot for JPM and really wished he could have fought KR tooth and nail. But that does not change the facts: After 24 (?) races there are no excuses left. Not for JPM and not for GF. Just face the truth, it makes life easier ;)...

Hmm, that´s a one take for the issue. I can live with that, so Fisi beating mid-class or rookie team mates doesnt mean much, so he isnt underperforming but he actually isnt any good. This could have saved me a lot of time and typing if you had said this earlier, because my whole point was all the time that you can´t use Fisi as an yardstick because he is underperforming... but all the time it was clear that he never was any good to begin with

[magicalonso]

Originally posted by prty



IIRC Trulli (considered one of the best qualifyers by many) and Alonso were equal in qualifying, and that says a little... In races Alonso was faster in most and equal in a few. Alonso got his DNF while leading or fighting for the podium while Trulli had his outside the points or in places like 8th. That's why Trulli ended up with 1 point more before he got sacked. May I remember you where was Trulli a few races away from his departure... exactly the same as Fisi or probably worse (he didn't score a single point). And the R24 was a really difficult car to drive. In 2003 Alonso beat Trulli clearly so I don't know how do you come to the conclusion "Trulli was at least playing in the same ball park as Alonso". But that has been discussed a lot of times.

Also, in the last races of 2004 the difference with Trulli was that big that he said he didn't have an equal car to Alonso to justify it. Back then it looked reasonable. The next year Fisichella enters the team and the excuse raises again. Then this year on the opposite position (Fernando leaving the team, if anything he doesn't get all the help he needs, while Fisi is staying) and the gap is the same.

How can Fisichella underperform after two years, especially after saying that now the car really suit him, and as he said, he is driving better than ever.

There is a reason left: Alonso is better than Fisichella and Trulli. Trulli is like Ralf, on his day he probably is one of the best drivers, and Fisi is behind Trulli then. The problem is he isn't constantly getting those days.

Wait here....actually Trulli never said he had an inferior car...what he said was "Fernando is the Renault's driver now" or something similar to this..
I'm a fan of both Alonso and Trulli so this needs to be clear.;) And I have to say that Trulli was never in the same ballpark as Alonso except when only Qualifying was concerned.
I also feel that it is not fair to compare Trulli and Fisichella respective to their performances as FA's teammates since FA is probably a bit better now than 2/3 years ago...

[as65p]

Originally posted by yr


...because my whole point was all the time that you can´t use Fisi as an yardstick because he is underperforming...

Again, I don't buy this "underperforming" crap. Basically in any top sport you perform within maybe 98 percent of your abilities on any given day on 99 out of 100 days, the hundreths day being maybe the day your cat died or whatever cruel things happened that let your attention slip. Being good under whatever pressure (having a better athlet compete with you in this case) is one of those abilities. Whe are talking minute differences here which separate a top 6 athlete from becoming a top 3 contender, nothing more.
So, excusing constantly weaker performance than your teammate with "well, I underperformed" and thereby suggesting you could have done more by performing "normally" somehow is just that: an excuse.

I really fail to see how it is prohibited to use Fisi as a yardstick? Of course it's more complicated than taking the gap from his year with Massa and then concluding that he would beat MS this year ,
but still the relative gaps MS <-> FM / FA <-> GF seem to indicate that Alonso could indeed be blindingly fast. I don't see a problem with that conclusion, do you?

[Group B]

You don't think H2F "underperformed" at Williams? People have issues, we're not machines.

[yr]

Originally posted by as65p

but still the relative gaps MS <-> FM / FA <-> GF seem to indicate that Alonso could indeed be blindingly fast. I don't see a problem with that conclusion, do you?

Yes I do.

I am not the first one to think that, for a one reason or another, GF has been a huge dissapoitment. It is totally different thing to shine in Minardi and Jordan than to shine in the best team with best car, the pressure is on the different level alltogether, you are expected to win or at least end up on podium in every single race, week after week. GF was very good in small teams, he even won a race with Jordan (?) allthough it was a bit of a luck, but winning with such a car doesn´t happen without the luck. He beat his team mates, usually with a very healthy margin, he scored points for his team with very poor cars, I mean good points, in the same time his team mates scored usually zero points in whole season.

What has happend? ok, he has one of the best drivers as a team mate, but that doesn´t explain why he is usually fighting for places 5-7 in every GP? WTF?????? He used to do that in cars which were miles behind his current car, he should have been on podium in every fricking GP this year.

Also relative gaps KR <->JPM / JPM<-> Ralf / Ralf <-> Trulli / Trulli <-> Alonso seems to indicate that Kimi is much faster than Alonso

[clampett]

Originally posted by yr


Fisi has sort of destroyed most of his team mates so far, Alonso is totally destroing Fisi now. But if Trulli was so close to FA, actually beating him in points, qual etc. howcome can the "cannibal" be so far behind FA now, if he doesn´t underperform? I know that Alonso was a bit faster than Trulli in 04, but still, Trulli was at least playing in the same ball park as Alonso. Fisi is a thousend miles away from that park, is Fisi really that far behind Trulli in terms of talent?

The only race where Fisi has been better than FA is Indy, in all other races he has been... well, like he was driving a totally different car, a car from midfield, that is. There can be two reasons for this, either Fisi is underperforming which I belive, or Renault is a Midfieldish car but in that case of course Trulli is second best driver on the grid.

People always forget how great Fisi drove in Sepang and dominantly won the pole. Yes, I know about the fueling mishaps, but still, why you guys totally forgot it?

Actually I have to agree Fisi is underperforming and the reason is IMO he is not a good backup driver like Massa, DC, Barra... He only drove well this year when Alonso had some kind of problems, but then he drove very well. Last year was a totally different story, he had an awful reiability especially at the first half of the year, and the outcome was some bad mistakes like Spa or Suzuka.

Another proof for Fisi's underperforming are Monaco and Canada. In Monaco his pace was very rhapsodic. He was very unlucky, because the penalty and the SC ruined his strategy. But his pace was incredibly different when Alonso was close to lapping him. He also fastened by 1.5 sec/lap in Australia when the SC gifted his chance for points back.

In Canada, Fisi wanted a big race and jump started (another proof he is not a backup caliber driver). His pace was identical to Alonso's and Kimi's before the drivethru. He was unlucky with the SC because he should arrive back from the pits ahead of Trulli without it. But it wasn't enough, and then Fisi's pace was dropped a lot.

I think Fisi as a talent and by racecraft is a top5 driver. Only Alonso makes him look worse, because now Alonso is the perfect package. But Fisi can only drive well when the team focuses more on him and his teammate is behind.

The comparison of Trulli 2004 and Fisi 2005-2006 isn't really fair. It wasn't Trulli who drove better but it's Alonso who drove much worse (at least compared to his performances today). He made a couple of mistakes in qualifyings and had mechanical problems in races.

In a same team Fisi would perform easily better than Jarno and Ralf (and many others). He have beaten Ralf already, and totally destroyed Button while Trulli didn't manage to do.

[Fortymark]

Originally posted by yr


Yes I do.

I am not the first one to think that, for a one reason or another, GF has been a huge dissapoitment. It is totally different thing to shine in Minardi and Jordan than to shine in the best team with best car, the pressure is on the different level alltogether, you are expected to win or at least end up on podium in every single race, week after week. GF was very good in small teams, he even won a race with Jordan (?) allthough it was a bit of a luck, but winning with such a car doesn´t happen without the luck. He beat his team mates, usually with a very healthy margin, he scored points for his team with very poor cars, I mean good points, in the same time his team mates scored usually zero points in whole season.

What has happend? ok, he has one of the best drivers as a team mate, but that doesn´t explain why he is usually fighting for places 5-7 in every GP? WTF?????? He used to do that in cars which were miles behind his current car, he should have been on podium in every fricking GP this year.

Also relative gaps KR <->JPM / JPM<-> Ralf / Ralf <-> Trulli / Trulli <-> Alonso seems to indicate that Kimi is much faster than Alonso

It´s one thing if you can´t handle the pressure, you make plenty of mistakes and irrational moves.
But Fisichella has been constant slower than Alonso during 1½ season by now lap after lap.
In fact, he doesn´t even have the pressure as his under contract for next year and did underperform last year. People are used that his slower than Alonso so he can fully concentrate on his job.

[yr]

Originally posted by Fortymark


It´s one thing if you can´t handle the pressure, you make plenty of mistakes and irrational moves.
But Fisichella has been constant slower than Alonso during 1½ season by now lap after lap.
In fact, he doesn´t even have the pressure as his under contract for next year and did underperform last year. People are used that his slower than Alonso so he can fully concentrate on his job.

Hmm, you got point there, actually. That makes his poor performance even bigger mistery for me. Because "poor" his perfomances are, with that car, nothing but podium ( preferably win) is acceptable.

[MortenF1]

Originally posted by clampett


In a same team Fisi would perform easily better than Jarno and Ralf (and many others). He have beaten Ralf already, and totally destroyed Button while Trulli didn't manage to do.

There's no way such a comparison will work! Try it with Villeneuve/Frentzen/Hill for instance.

Fisi was marginally better or faster than Ralf Schumacher in '97, when Schumacher was a total rookie, and Fisichella atleast had a handful of races the previous year, even if that was with Minardi.

He did beat Button though, when things took off for him - he lived a superstar-life suddenly and rarley seemed focused on F1. In addition to that, the B201 was a dog and said to be a puzzle to set up. Do you think we'd see the same result if they'd team up now? No way, and you can ask more or less anyone with a half-decent level of F1 knowledge about that.

Nope, Trulli didn't look as good against Button as Fisichella had, but maybe a slap in the face and more experience was part of the answer? Coming back from a horrible season, Button had to do better, and he apparently changed his driving style a bit, and adopted a new technique, don't remember if it was in the slow or fast corners.

I've never rated Fisichella as high as many others have, so even if the intra team-battle in Renault is as expected, the gap is much bigger than I thought it would be. (Even if pre-05, with the one-tyre rules, I epxected Fisichella to hold the upper hand in the first season, as I thought Alonso's brutal style wouldn't work with tires having to last that long.)

That said, Fisichella is still a top ten driver, figuring somwhere in the second group of drivers, and with the mighty Alonso as a team-mate, I'm sure it's become a bit hard for him to wring out the max from himself. I.e he's not perhaps extracting 100% of his ability.

[as65p]

Originally posted by Group B
You don't think H2F "underperformed" at Williams? People have issues, we're not machines.

In this case I'm inclined to agree, Frentzen at Williams never showed what he could do. Then again, this is sort of a freak occurence and there where some reasons for it that are apparently not present with GF and Renault. GF is, for all I know, truly respected and supported within the the team and even had his contract extended well in advance, whereas Williams was even at their best more of a shut-up-and-drive-the-wheels-of that-thing operation, and HHF did not have the stubborness of JV to fight with Patrick Head and perform at the same time.

[TF106]

Originally posted by FFYM
What are you saying???

Do you thing Ferrari is worried for McLaren money???. Are you kidding? With less money, Renault, Toyota, Honda, etc... can be in the same level. With money, one problem, without money, 10 problems...

Please, no mere stupid antiferrari behavior.

how much mclaren spend money from first race until now ? can u count mclaren had spend money ?

[FFYM]

Originally posted by TF106


how much mclaren spend money from first race until now ? can u count mclaren had spend money ?

I think you didn't understand me. I was talking about Ferrari's worries (number of teams allowed to the crown).

[De Weberis]

http://www2.uol.com....lt794u36824.shl

I don't know if it was mentioned before in the forum, but this site - in portuguese - says that the secret of Ferrari ressurection is a former engineer of McLaren and Renault Gerald Brussoz.

Brussoz have redesigned Ferrari's rear suspension and gave tips to Bridgestone, showing the way to improve the tires.

[ali_M]

Originally posted by clampett


People always forget how great Fisi drove in Sepang and dominantly won the pole. Yes, I know about the fueling mishaps, but still, why you guys totally forgot it?

....

I think Fisi as a talent and by racecraft is a top5 driver. Only Alonso makes him look worse, because now Alonso is the perfect package. But Fisi can only drive well when the team focuses more on him and his teammate is behind.

I believe this may well be the case in that he performs better when he is the focus of the team in terms of being the main points scorer etc. He doesn't do well when he is behind his team mate. Mental toughness is required in F1 and Fisi doesn't display much of it. This is why he's having problems, jumping starts and other things which are robbing him points/opportunities. Of course, these incidents only makes matters worse. Not to mention how he must feel seeing his team-mate doing so much better than him in the same car. It wouldn't be easy for anyone.

So I do feel that he *is* underperforming.