25 replies to this topic

[black magic]

I'm curious as to where the regs stand with regards to alonso's actions at the start of q3

as I saw it ms clearly comes down the pitlane ahead of alonso and parks at the exit, whereapon alonso pulls alongside

when the lights go green alonso wins the drag out of pitlane thereby technically overtaking in the pitlane.

I'm not asking for a penalty other than a fine or strong message to both of them as to whether allowed. surely the rule as I understand it exists to protect the people working in the pitlane and as exiting it is to see these 2 having a ding dong pissing contest, the pitlane is not the place. I also noted alonso was not the only person to do this in q3.

we have seen 2 cars side by side in the pitlane, but not technically overtaking before, and 2 cars side by side is frankly dangerous and should be penalised before we have 2 cars touch with the ensuing mayhem.

[Sakae]

This is a copy of an excerpt from FIA Regulations.

PIT LANE
64) a) For the avoidance of doubt and for description purposes, the pit lane shall be divided into two lanes.
The lane closest to the pit wall is designated the "fast lane", and the lane closest to the garages is
designated the "inner lane". Other than when cars are at the end of the pit lane under Article 136, the
inner lane is the only area where any work can be carried out on a car.
b) The FIA will designate an area in the pit lane where each team may work and two places where pit
stops may be carried out.
c) Except during the five minutes preceding the third period of qualifying practice, unless a car is pushed
from the grid at any time during the start procedure, cars may only be driven from the team’s
designated garage area to the end of the pit lane.
d) Any driver intending to start the race from the pit lane may not drive his car from his team’s
designated garage area until the 15 minute signal has been given and must stop in a line in the fast
lane.
Under these circumstances working in the fast lane will be permitted but any such work is restricted
to :
- starting the engine and any directly associated preparation ;
- the fitting or removal of cooling and heating devices ;
- changing wheels.
When cars are permitted to leave the pit lane they must do so in the order they arrived at the end of
the pit lane unless another car is unduly delayed. At all times drivers must follow the directions of the
marshals.
e) Other than drying, sweeping or any tyre rubber left when cars leave their pit stop position,
Competitors may not attempt to enhance the grip of the surface in the pit lane unless a problem has
been clearly identified and a solution agreed by the FIA safety delegate.
f) Competitors must not paint lines on any part of the pit lane.
g) Other than under c) above no equipment may be left in the fast lane.
h) Team personnel are only allowed in the pit lane immediately before they are required to work on a car
and must withdraw as soon as the work is complete.
i) It is the responsibility of the Competitor to release his car after a pit stop only when it is safe to do so.

______________

I haven't seen what you are describing, but I wonder what is missing in my excerpt, because I am sure someone would have complained if rules were blatantly abused. I seems to remember how much noise was there just from pneu touching the exit white line...

[JForce]

I think it varies, as some tracks have a double-width pitlane, some only have a single lane. There is a rule about taking care/giving way etc in the pitlane.

I don't have too much of a problem with what Alonso did, but a clarification would be nice.

[black magic]

yeah I'm not asking for a major inquistion but would seem clearly that thre was contraventionof leaving pit lane in order at which the end was reached

these rules ar epretty impt for safety rather than the quality of racing etc.

its also the usual story. fia does nothing when rules broken until they decide an unfair advantage has been gained and then we have this yeah but so and so was allowed to do it ...

[ASD]

Renault can break the regulations, especially in France. Don't expect anything form the stewards or the FIA

Now if it had been the other way round (ie MS had overtaken FA inthe pit lane), there would be 200 posts already from two-faced hypocrites calling Schumacher a cheater for doing it.

[Imperial]

Before people go absolutely mental on this most minor of issues (in the greater scheme of things) there are two things that people are missing from this rule (or clarification that this rule is also missing).

It refers to the pitlane consisting of a fast lane and an inner lane.

The highlighted part of the rules does not state whether arriving at the end of the pit lane first means being first out of all the cars, or just first out of the cars in your lane. Michael arrived there in the fast lane, Alonso arrived there in the inner lane.

The other thing is that there isn't a definition of what constitutes being unduly delayed.

It could be argued that Michael being sat at the red light for so long served him (and therefore all the cars behind him) to be unduly delayed and so Alonso sought to find a quicker route on to the track - in this case taking to the inner lane so he could get on to the race track quicker.

That might all sound very legally challenging, but the rules have been brought into play in this thread so I believe it is fair game.

What you have to think about is, if there had been a protest from Ferrari and/or an investigation by the FIA, how would Renault try and defend their driver? They would use exactly the examples I have used above and probably more that I could not hope to even think of.

The most important point is that this has caused another rule to be printed on this forum, that exposes yet again the (purposeful?) ambiguity in an FIA rule, that ambiguity seemingly running through the entire FIA F1 rule book.

Absolutely every rule in F1 is open to interpretation.

It wouldn't surprise me if all the F1 teams knew this rule was open to interpretation anyway and so instructed their drivers to pull alongside another at the end of the pitlane.

This isn't all about Alonso though. There were a couple of cars behind him that did exactly the same thing at the same time, including an abortive attempt by Fisichella, who changed his mind part-way through changing lanes.

I guess it's sort of interesting to see more half-specified rules from the FIA rule book, but really in the grand scheme of things this wasn't even an incident at all. It doesn't even register on the F1 radar.

[ASD]

Originally posted by Imperial
Before people go absolutely mental on this...

You reckon?
Yours is post number 6.

It's a minor issue if Alonso does it. Had Schumacher done it, then you'd have the two hundred+ posts saying what a despicable cheater he is and how the FIA are biased. There are people who virtually wet themselves on this board at any opportunity to accuse MS/Ferrari of cheating.
As it is, virtually **** all.

[Imperial]

Originally posted by ASD
It's a minor issue if Alonso does it. Had Schumacher done it, then you'd have the two hundred+ posts saying what a despicable cheater he is and how the FIA are biased. There are people who virtually wet themselves on this board at any opportunity to accuse MS/Ferrari of cheating.
As it is, virtually **** all.

Do you really think people would go crazy about this if Michael had been in Alonso's shoes?

I honestly wouldn't think so. I'm sure nobody has it in for Michael that much that they would use such a non-issue against him.

I don't like being involved in Driver VS Driver spats, but my opinion (from a distance, not really caring too much about either Schumacher OR Alonso) is that yes there are definitely people out there who use every opportunity to bash Michael for something, but there is also an equal amount of people out there who bash the actions of every driver that isn't Michael and every team that isn't Ferrari, whenever something occurs without penalty that people believe Michael would have been kicked out of F1 for if he had been the guilty party, rather than Driver X.

[naiboz]

?


They did not race in the pitlane

What they actually did was line up next to each other at the line which marks the END of the pitlane.



Why are people on this board always intent in making a mountain out of a mole hill???

[Ross Stonefeld]

Basically because you shouldnt be on the inside lane of the pits unless you're entering or exiting your specific box.

[ASD]

Originally posted by Imperial


Do you really think people would go crazy about this if Michael had been in Alonso's shoes?

I honestly wouldn't think so. I'm sure nobody has it in for Michael that much that they would use such a non-issue against him.

I don't like being involved in Driver VS Driver spats, but my opinion (from a distance, not really caring too much about either Schumacher OR Alonso) is that yes there are definitely people out there who use every opportunity to bash Michael for something, but there is also an equal amount of people out there who bash the actions of every driver that isn't Michael and every team that isn't Ferrari, whenever something occurs without penalty that people believe Michael would have been kicked out of F1 for if he had been the guilty party, rather than Driver X.

I disagree. There are far more people who set out to bash Schumacher/Ferrari for anything whatsoever, than bash the actions of other drivers. Whereas by contrast hardly anyone is queuing up on this thread (for example) are they? It's simply double standards on some people's part. I could name you some names, but it's hardly necessary.

[Kooper]

Originally posted by ASD



It's a minor issue if Alonso does it. Had Schumacher done it, then you'd have the two hundred+ posts saying what a despicable cheater he is and how the FIA are biased. There are people who virtually wet themselves on this board at any opportunity to accuse MS/Ferrari of cheating.
As it is, virtually **** all.

well Schuey is a proven despicable cheater ---> see Rascasse for latest example

[SchuOz]

I'm sure i seen Alonso also do this in Quali 3 at USA.

[Buttoneer]

Maybe it did contravene the rules. But who cares? Who cares whether it be Alonso, Schumacher, Albers. Uncle Tom Cobbley?

The fact is that the pitlane opener, and the pass and repass during the fuel burning phase were the most exciting part of the whole weekend. Alonso was pissed off to not get the front row and he let his emotions show. Or he was trying to provoke Schumie into an error. Who cares? Why not just sit back and enjoy two champions having a very public pissing contest and enjoy it? We've seen precious little proper rivaly and the corporate machines surrounding these drivers and the PR speak gives absolutely nothing away.

And who did it harm? Was anyone, whether driver, team personnel or public hurt? Did anyone actually 'lose' anything from it? Was it even significant since the fuel burn phase gets nobody a point does it?

Enjoy it, FFS, and hope it or something like it happens again to give us all a fleeting hard on about F1 again. Because the race itself left me limper than a...than a....very limp thing.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Imperial


Do you really think people would go crazy about this if Michael had been in Alonso's shoes?

I honestly wouldn't think so. I'm sure nobody has it in for Michael that much that they would use such a non-issue against him.

I

Newbie

Apparently you haven't met mclarenroxxers yet.

[Imperial]

Originally posted by tifosi


Newbie

A newbie since February 2002 ? Bloody hell !!! How long is an apprenticeship on this forum?

[Imperial]

Originally posted by Buttoneer
And who did it harm? Was anyone, whether driver, team personnel or public hurt? Did anyone actually 'lose' anything from it? Was it even significant since the fuel burn phase gets nobody a point does it?

Agreed. It's not like Alonso steamed down the inner lane at 230mph from his pitbox. He crawled up behind Michael and then changed lanes.

I know some people have disagreed with my observation of comments people make either against Michael or other drivers, but I seriously sense that the vibe in this thread is one of the Schumacher hardcore being really pissed off that this "incident" was not turned into something massive and Alonso wasn't hung, drawn and quartered for it.

[ASD]

Originally posted by Buttoneer
Maybe it did contravene the rules. But who cares? ...

And who did it harm? Was anyone, whether driver, team personnel or public hurt?

Was anyone hurt at Rascasse? No.

That apparently is not what counts.
I'm not saying the two incidents are the same, but what really makes the difference on this board is who broke the rules not how serious it was.

[Buttoneer]

Originally posted by ASD

I'm not saying the two incidents are the same, but what really makes the difference on this board is who broke the rules not how serious it was.

Well it's a good job that you're not saying the incidents are the same because to even think about saying that is madness. You cut short my quote. I said;

And who did it harm? Was anyone, whether driver, team personnel or public hurt? Did anyone actually 'lose' anything from it? Was it even significant since the fuel burn phase gets nobody a point does it?

And in that respect, what happened during the 'I think it is called Rascasse' incident differs hugely.

Did you not enjoy the cut and thrust of these two great drivers getting feisty with each other? Was it not pretty much the highlight of the whole weekend? Schumie ended the duel in front after all, and then went on to take pole.

Every single one of your posts in this thread complains about how hard done by Schumacher is by those 'some' fans. Instead try to think which driver or team might be hard done by as a result of whichever incident we are discussing. In this case, you'll find it is nobody.

[Imperial]

Originally posted by ASD


Was anyone hurt at Rascasse? No.

That apparently is not what counts.
I'm not saying the two incidents are the same, but what really makes the difference on this board is who broke the rules not how serious it was.

How do you know the rules were broken though?

As discussed already, that pitlane rule is completely open to interpretation.

Is it not possible that no action was taken against Alonso and there has not been any media or fan uproar, simply because.....he didn't actually break a rule?

Maybe this is a question for "Question Mark" on ITV-F1 next weekend?

[ASD]

I enjoyed them "getting feisty" when they were on the track itself, yes. Curious that two on-track overtaking moves between closely matched cars were possible in qualifying, though overtaking was practically impossible anywhere in the race...
But overtaking as Alonso did when the lights went out seems to me not permitted by the rules.

On this board even when you have something that has been specifically tested by the authorities and found to meet the existing rules (ie "flexi-wings"), you get long threads where people complain about cheating agaisnt "the spirit of the rules" (especially if Ferrari are accused). Nobody was hurt, nobody lost out because of someone breaking the rules - as they weren't broken.

It's not about whether the rules are "open to interpretation" that makes the difference. If there was something open to interpretation and Schumacher might be accused of having broken it, you would not get a short (eg 20-post) thread on the grounds that there's little point discussing it. You'd have the usual folks wetting themselves.

As to Rascasse, I'm not saying that it's not worth discussion (in the way that some people think this issue is not worth discussion). But my own view is still that had it been anyone other than Schumacher, we would not have had the thousands of posts that were made. Nobody died, only Alonso lost a realistic chance of posting a faster time than MS.

To be clear, I am not accusing Alonso of a big misdemeanor. What I take issue with is the double standards of the bashers which are evident, yet again.

Do see if Mark B will deal with the question, I bet not.

[black magic]

no one has called fr a penalty in terms of race/championship.

to me this is clear contravention of the spirit of the law designed to protect the tens of people in the pitlane from serious injury.

as also pointed out, fia will likely do nothing until someone stretches it to a race and then we do have a problem. alonso clearly overtoook albeit at a snails pace.

question for those seeing nothing wrong with this, fine. can you let us all know then at what speed you are allowed to overtake before it should bedeemed dangerous - just for the future

fia simply need to issue a reminder that overtaking in pits is not allowed and will be enforced in the future. end of stroy.

[Imperial]

Originally posted by black magic
question for those seeing nothing wrong with this, fine. can you let us all know then at what speed you are allowed to overtake before it should bedeemed dangerous - just for the future

fia simply need to issue a reminder that overtaking in pits is not allowed and will be enforced in the future. end of stroy.

I myself am not defending Alonso as such, but that's only because I don't think there was anything there to defend.

If an issue or non-issue (whatever people choose to call it) like this is going to be discussed at least keep within the technical facts of what actually occured. You're asking what is a safe speed to overtake in the pits and you are asking the FIA to remind that overtaking in the pits isn't allowed.

Alonso didn't overtake Schumacher. What he did do was pull of the fast lane and move into the inner lane and then stopped alongside Schumacher. When the lights went green it was a straight "race" away from the lights, absolutely no difference to what goes on between boy-racers at traffic lights probably every second of every day all across the world.

It wasn't an overtaking move.

[Imperial]

Originally posted by ASD
But my own view is still that had it been anyone other than Schumacher, we would not have had the thousands of posts that were made. Nobody died, only Alonso lost a realistic chance of posting a faster time than MS.

To be clear, I am not accusing Alonso of a big misdemeanor. What I take issue with is the double standards of the bashers which are evident, yet again.

I do agree with you in one respect, but Michael is a mega star and it's all part of the territory. In all walks of life, it's always the most known person that gets the most praise and also the most criticism.

Nevertheless, if we're talking about standards and double-standards, I would absolutely bet my last pound coin that if it had been a Midland and a Super Aguri, then this thread wouldn't even exist as nobody on either side of the discussion would give a ****.

[black magic]

perhaps you can explain how alonso initially runs down the pitlane behind michael, then exits the pitlane ahead of him.

yes he did have to stop for the red light but equally technically he passed michael.

care to answer my question re safe overtaking speed?

[Imperial]

Originally posted by black magic
perhaps you can explain how alonso initially runs down the pitlane behind michael, then exits the pitlane ahead of him.

yes he did have to stop for the red light but equally technically he passed michael.

care to answer my question re safe overtaking speed?

I'm saying he didn't overtake him, at least not in the normal understood sense of the phrase. He pulled alongside a car that was not moving and pulled away quicker from the green light than said other car.

The answer to your question about safe overtaking speeds in the pitlane is that such a question is not relevant to this situation, in which one car was stationery and the other pulled alongside him at about 5mph and then came to a complete halt.

Ask the question again when a real overtaking move happens in the pits, i.e. in a race situation and at say 40mph. But then you'd be opening a whole can of worms and in fact have to address the whole issue of should the pitlane be used during the race anyway, given that the cars proximity to human beings, even at pitlane speeds, is strictly not safe at all.