44 replies to this topic

[Gemini]

couldn't resist to share the info on first demo and release date

I really look forward to this sim

http://www.gamespot....?tag=gtr2_csbox

[Arrows4Ever]

Why don't they release this for the consoles???

I hate driving with a keyboard.;)

[cavallinö]

How would driving with a gamepad be any better? If you have a wheel, most of them work with PCs as well.

Why on earth would someone want to play a racing sim on a console? Wrong market.

[Arrows4Ever]

Don't agree! There is a market.

I do have a wheel and it doesn't work but that's besides the point...

Can't stand playing a game with my face 12 or 15 inches from the screen and on my chair...

I'd rather be 12 to 15 feet away from my flat screen and on my sofa!

[dick]

Originally posted by cavallinö
How would driving with a gamepad be any better? If you have a wheel, most of them work with PCs as well.

Why on earth would someone want to play a racing sim on a console? Wrong market.

I agree. Consoles are for arcade games. Real sims require a PC.

[Arrows4Ever]

Originally posted by dick


I agree. Consoles are for arcade games. Real sims require a PC.

Did I miss the memo???

Why in the heaven's name does a sim REQUIRE a pc???

Are the sim makers prohibited to release a "real sim" for the consoles???

[Gemini]

Originally posted by Arrows4Ever
Don't agree! There is a market.

I do have a wheel and it doesn't work but that's besides the point...

Can't stand playing a game with my face 12 or 15 inches from the screen and on my chair...

I'd rather be 12 to 15 feet away from my flat screen and on my sofa!

You don't have a sofa option in GT car ;)

It's not a game, its a SIM. It's not to enjoy you... it's to test you to the limit...

[Linus27]

PC's can process more complex systems than a console but I do not agree with the fact that consoles can't do sims. The difference is the complexity or in another way, consoles can only do watered down sims. Take GT4, in my eyes its a sim but it has its flaws with poor tyres modelling and some of its take on rear wheel drive models has to be questioned but it does still simulate certain areas of driving extremely well. The PC however can simulate far greater parameters and to a far higher level of detail but even then, they are still not perfect. Take GTR2 for example, possibly the most accurate sim not yet to be released yet when its raining, where are the windscreen wipers?? GPL does not have a tyre model yet some of the best physics around. So, its all to do with what is available to you. I have no doubt the PS2 could simulate a race car extemely well with a hell of a lot of detail but then there will be nothing left for anything else like decent sound, decent graphics, 20 cars to choose, 10 tracks etc etc and at the end of the day the developers are trying to produce a game/sim.

So to sum up, consoles can do simulations in the truest sense of what the word simulation means but they are not capable of doing then in as much detail as a PC due to its limitations. In other words, consoles can only really produce watered down simulations.

[Gemini]

I have never tried Playstation so I am not in position to critisize... but is it possible to drive console sims from cockpit view? So far I have never seen a screenshot of F1 or other driving game for PS with cockpit view... :

[Linus27]

Yes it is, The WRC games can with WRC 4 being extremly good. I think TOCA 3 does but not 100% as don't play it.

Forgot to mention, GTR is coming to a console but Xbox 360 only I think.

[Gemini]

Originally posted by Linus27
PC's can process more complex systems than a console but I do not agree with the fact that consoles can't do sims. The difference is the complexity or in another way, consoles can only do watered down sims. Take GT4, in my eyes its a sim but it has its flaws with poor tyres modelling and some of its take on rear wheel drive models has to be questioned but it does still simulate certain areas of driving extremely well. The PC however can simulate far greater parameters and to a far higher level of detail but even then, they are still not perfect. Take GTR2 for example, possibly the most accurate sim not yet to be released yet when its raining, where are the windscreen wipers?? GPL does not have a tyre model yet some of the best physics around. So, its all to do with what is available to you. I have no doubt the PS2 could simulate a race car extemely well with a hell of a lot of detail but then there will be nothing left for anything else like decent sound, decent graphics, 20 cars to choose, 10 tracks etc etc and at the end of the day the developers are trying to produce a game/sim.

So to sum up, consoles can do simulations in the truest sense of what the word simulation means but they are not capable of doing then in as much detail as a PC due to its limitations. In other words, consoles can only really produce watered down simulations.

Linus, please don't drag RSC forum "wipers dabate" over here.

good post by the way

[Linus27]

Gemini,

What RSC debate? I read about the wipers from an interview with the developers. They mentioned that they could easily of added wipers but they would not all be accurate for every car and so left them out. My point was despite PC's being the more powerful platform, even simple things like wipers can cause difficulties.

[cavallinö]

Originally posted by Arrows4Ever
Don't agree! There is a market.

I do have a wheel and it doesn't work but that's besides the point...

Can't stand playing a game with my face 12 or 15 inches from the screen and on my chair...

I'd rather be 12 to 15 feet away from my flat screen and on my sofa!

Sims are not played from sofas, do you put the wheel on your lap

PC's can process more complex systems than a console but I do not agree with the fact that consoles can't do sims. The difference is the complexity or in another way, consoles can only do watered down sims. Take GT4, in my eyes its a sim but it has its flaws with poor tyres modelling and some of its take on rear wheel drive models has to be questioned but it does still simulate certain areas of driving extremely well.

No longer the case, the next gen consoles are powerful enough. The problem is the market. Many hardcore sims depend a lot on the mod community for their long term survival. They don't look as slick as they drive - take the average console gamer, show them Project Gotham 3 and GTR, and what do you think they will buy. GTR had an arcade mode, so it's probably suited for the XBox 360, though I doubt if it will sell that much. Games like Live for Speed and rFactor wouldn't have a chance in hell of surviving on consoles.

Oh and I don't know how people can play with in car views in GTR - I can't. Maybe a huge widescreen monitor - my 21" isn't enough. Wipers would be a bit poitles ad an excessive drainon processor resources. You'd have to simulate refraction through raindrops - that needs a supercomputer.

[Linus27]

Oh and I don't know how people can play with in car views in GTR - I can't

Thats because its reaslistic and so its not easy to get used to.

Also the most powerful console is nowhere near as powerful as the most powerful PC. Not by a long way. I do tend to agree with you on marketing though. Richard Burns Rally was way more realistic than the Colin series yet I bet the Colin series sold buckets more copies due to the Colin name and the success of previous titles despite then be very average games.

[Gemini]

Originally posted by Linus27
Gemini,

What RSC debate? I read about the wipers from an interview with the developers. They mentioned that they could easily of added wipers but they would not all be accurate for every car and so left them out. My point was despite PC's being the more powerful platform, even simple things like wipers can cause difficulties.

I meant the GTR forum on race sim central.

Never mind... I the comment in a first place

[Gemini]

Originally posted by cavallinö




Oh and I don't know how people can play with in car views in GTR - I can't.

Did you try to move your point of view forward?

With some cars its diffcult beacause you have to seat so far backwards to have a view of rear mirrors. That's why with some cars I move my point of view forward and use virtual mirror. Makes a huge differrence...

[cavallinö]

Originally posted by Linus27
Thats because its reaslistic and so its not easy to get used to.

The fact that it isn't realistic makes it so hard to get used to - a monitor offers a very limited field of view compared to real life. 3 monitors stuck together might do it.

Also the most powerful console is nowhere near as powerful as the most powerful PC. Not by a long way. I do tend to agree with you on marketing though. Richard Burns Rally was way more realistic than the Colin series yet I bet the Colin series sold buckets more copies due to the Colin name and the success of previous titles despite then be very average games.

The new ones are quite powerful, you should check out the specs on the Xbox 360. It has 3 separate cores, each capable of running 2 threads.

Did you try to move your point of view forward?

But then it stops being realistic - then what is the point, you might as well use the far more convenient bonnet / bumper view.

[Rob G]

Originally posted by Gemini
I have never tried Playstation so I am not in position to critisize... but is it possible to drive console sims from cockpit view? So far I have never seen a screenshot of F1 or other driving game for PS with cockpit view... :

Of the PS2 games I own, the first WRC game, the TOCA games, and the EA F1 and NASCAR games have cockpit views. The Gran Turismo games do not. I can't think of whether my other games have them or not because I haven't played them in a while.

[Linus27]

The fact that it isn't realistic makes it so hard to get used to - a monitor offers a very limited field of view compared to real life. 3 monitors stuck together might do it.

Oh I see, you mean the actual left and right field of view. Well yes but if you use the TrackIR gadget or the look to apex facility then it certainly makes it realistic. Not sure how much real racing you have done but your view is more centrally focused then the left and right. The field of view in GTR is very very good but it can be adjusted if needed.

I have looked at the Xbox 360 specs and yes they look good but still nothing compared to the PC. Also the PC is so far more versitile, upgradeable and moddable despite not being so user friendly.

[Gemini]

Originally posted by cavallinö



But then it stops being realistic - then what is the point, you might as well use the far more convenient bonnet / bumper view.

Well if you think that moving your driver's seat forward by 5-10 cm makes same as seating on the car roof... then I give up

[Rich]

Originally posted by Arrows4Ever


Did I miss the memo???

Why in the heaven's name does a sim REQUIRE a pc???

Are the sim makers prohibited to release a "real sim" for the consoles???

No, but it's against their nature. It takes a full month of solid play just to get familiar with the GTR or GPL physics model. Once you've put in that time, and once the online modding community gets in on the act, the game can then provide years of entertainment.

Console makers cannot afford to let gamers spend that amount of time on a game. Their business model is based on pre-teen girls spending a max of one week on a game before getting bored with it, and pestering mommy and daddy to buy them a new game.

PC sims work on a different approach, and one that I prefer. That's probably why I'll never own a console.

[cavallinö]

Originally posted by Gemini


Well if you think that moving your driver's seat forward by 5-10 cm makes same as seating on the car roof... then I give up

I'll give the in car view another shot once my GTR2 demo download is done in a few minutes.

By the way the demo's out

HERE

[Linus27]

Another thing, can you imagine simulation a 300BHP sprts car with a gamepad?? I'm sorry but if its that easy, then real car makers would do the same. Its just not realistic to use a gamepad and the choice of wheels is very limited for consoles. So game makers have to program racing games to be playable with gamepads to make them playable and like I say, this waters down the effect. PC's on the other hand have had decent wheel and pedal systems for years so game developers are coding there sims for wheels and not gamepads. Even the new GTR2 demo has the new Logitech G25 wheel coded into it and the wheel is not even out yet.

[dick]

Originally posted by Rich


No, but it's against their nature. It takes a full month of solid play just to get familiar with the GTR or GPL physics model. Once you've put in that time, and once the online modding community gets in on the act, the game can then provide years of entertainment.

Console makers cannot afford to let gamers spend that amount of time on a game. Their business model is based on pre-teen girls spending a max of one week on a game before getting bored with it, and pestering mommy and daddy to buy them a new game.

PC sims work on a different approach, and one that I prefer. That's probably why I'll never own a console.

I agree. Consoles want easy games to learn and notice I said games...they don't like something that takes a lot of time and effort to learn. You notice you don't see any real flight sims for consoles either.

[Arrows4Ever]

QUOTE:Originally posted by Linus27
Another thing, can you imagine simulation a 300BHP sprts car with a gamepad?? I'm sorry but if its that easy, then real car makers would do the same. Its just not realistic to use a gamepad...

Agreed with all of the above but I'd say the same for doin' it with a keyboard! I don't see any difference(neither advantage nor disadvantage) for any of them!

QUOTE:Originally posted by Linus27
So game makers have to program racing games to be playable with gamepads to make them playable and like I say, this waters down the effect.

But there are some wheels for consoles!!! They're maybe not the best ones out there but nobody had never needed to release one as deeply programmed as the consoles weren't that huge of a machine before but I think I don't need to give you the specs to 360 or the future PS3 to prove you that these machines could very well handle more up-the-date or "up-to-specs(for sims)" material...

QUOTE:Originally posted by Linus27
PC's on the other hand have had decent wheel and pedal systems for years so game developers are coding there sims for wheels and not gamepads. Even the new GTR2 demo has the new Logitech G25 wheel coded into it and the wheel is not even out yet.

I understand and agree but what I'm saying basically is that this programming should start to be done for consoles as well then...

Share the love brothers! That's all I'm saying!

[Arrows4Ever]

Originally posted by dick


I agree. Consoles want easy games to learn and notice I said games...they don't like something that takes a lot of time and effort to learn. You notice you don't see any real flight sims for consoles either.

Utter nonsense(to me ;) )!!! The debate would be and is the same if I were a flight enthusiast!!!

Just release 1 decent sim for console and we'll see the sales number!!! There just hasn't been a real one for that matter!!! Especially if you consider the programming factor brought in by Linus. It's never too late to make'em...

[Gemini]

to have a look... not my movie and driving :yawn:

The driving is pleasure...

Seems to be more grip at low speeds, not a problem to drive 5 secs of the pace, but when you get to the edge

My best time after 10 laps 1.38.1xx on Lambo


Ohh... the in car view is even better than in GTR.

There are some things for improvemnt, but it's still a demo... i am sure there will be well documented and reported by community and simbin still has two months for tweaking...


I seem to enjoy it much more than GTR (comparing demo to demo), altough i have to say i have expected bigger step forward in terms of graphics. also dissapointing we don't have latest seasons aavailable (and have to wait for modders to step in)

I think for producers holding full FIA licence, releasing demo on 2003 track with 2004 cars is a bit pathetic... but that's commercial approach criticism...

Overall: I definite buy.

[cavallinö]

It's the same graphics engine, so we can hardly expect a Project Gotham 3 It's still one of the best looking driving games on the PC, I can only think of Need for Speed Most Wanted that looks better which is a **** game anyway.

I still don't get it, why would anyone want to play a driving sim on a console? Why would you want to lose access to the tremendous modding communities that just about every sim has? That would probably get replaced by a system where you have to pay for new content releases. You would run into the scary Halo like online community. You would have stupid menus meant to be navigated with a gamepad, less detailed car setups because they would be hardto manage with a gamepad, the arcade mode would get all the attention, the game would be bought based on how the screenshots look rather than how it is to play. Why would anyone want to be subjected to that, when you can just play on a PC?

[umma gumma]

haha, I just hope they release a GTL 2 now!!


or at least release some more cars....

I'm downloading the GTR2 demo now, although I still think GTR is a bit too *bling-bling* for my tastes

[mahelgel]

tried the demo, and i must say i quite liked it, but my computer didn't like it when it rained or other cars showed up FPS dropped like no tomorrow, but i guess that is the penalty for still hanging on to my amd XP2400+ (GTR1 and GTL also has a bit of struggle when there are a few other cars nearby : )

[Gemini]

1,36.9xx in Lambo

I find 575 more tricky to go quick

by the way...there are already modiffied files abailable that allow to drive some of locked cars: 550, Viper, Saleen and Lister. I tried them out of curiosity.. but being good boy I will stick to 575 and Lambo for time being

[Arrows4Ever]

Originally posted by cavallinö
...I still don't get it, why would anyone want to play a driving sim on a console? Why would you want to lose access to the tremendous modding communities that just about every sim has? That would probably get replaced by a system where you have to pay for new content releases. You would run into the scary Halo like online community. You would have stupid menus meant to be navigated with a gamepad, less detailed car setups because they would be hardto manage with a gamepad, the arcade mode would get all the attention, the game would be bought based on how the screenshots look rather than how it is to play. Why would anyone want to be subjected to that, when you can just play on a PC?

Just play any racing game late at night and you will see that racers are folks that at least do know how to drive cleanly(most of the times, if not, they're booted).

With the 360 and PS3, release a real sim and natural selection will prevail...

As for the rest of your post, I won't bother since you seem to be so stubborn about it all...
Looking at your questions, I sadly can only say this: Have you read all the posts or only yours? The gamepad and wheel issue was discussed earlier...

[umma gumma]

just tried the demo, looks great!!

I wish they could get sharper looking textures when you're inside the car looking out; the cars look great from a distance, but the hood etc gets quite blurry from inside the car

cheers

[cavallinö]

Originally posted by Arrows4Ever

Just play any racing game late at night and you will see that racers are folks that at least do know how to drive cleanly(most of the times, if not, they're booted).

There are only so many people you can boot. Either the game wouldn't sell or the Halo crowd will take over and you'll have hundreds of servers running with driving aids, with people driving with gamepads, some prepubescent kid modding his car to warp speeds and beating everyone. There is no console market for serious sims, ifyou try to create one you will end up dumbing your game down. It has happened to every single genre of gaming that has moved to consoles or multiplatform releases.

With the 360 and PS3, release a real sim and natural selection will prevail...

They released Half Life 2 for the X Box and it didn't sell. Halo sells millions. So the next Half Life 2 release is going to be a simultaneous release with consoles, I can only imagine what they will do to it.

If anyone here plays a lot of games, I don't think I need to say anything more than Deus Ex: Invisible War.

[mahelgel]

just drove a few laps, and something strikes me.... the car "bounces" like mad at the front during braking into the turns, like the front has no weight at all. Guess its mostly setup, or are the cars that bouncy?

[Gemini]

Originally posted by mahelgel
just drove a few laps, and something strikes me.... the car "bounces" like mad at the front during braking into the turns, like the front has no weight at all. Guess its mostly setup, or are the cars that bouncy?

Can you provide a *vcr file with this "bouncing"?

I don't have any issue like that I think, even with default setup.

[Linus27]

Probably to much brake bias at the front

[Arrows4Ever]

Originally posted by cavallinö


There are only so many people you can boot. Either the game wouldn't sell or the Halo crowd will take over and you'll have hundreds of servers running with driving aids, with people driving with gamepads, some prepubescent kid modding his car to warp speeds and beating everyone. There is no console market for serious sims, ifyou try to create one you will end up dumbing your game down. It has happened to every single genre of gaming that has moved to consoles or multiplatform releases.




They released Half Life 2 for the X Box and it didn't sell. Halo sells millions. So the next Half Life 2 release is going to be a simultaneous release with consoles, I can only imagine what they will do to it.

If anyone here plays a lot of games, I don't think I need to say anything more than Deus Ex: Invisible War.

Again with the gamepads...


Do you have any sales figures for Half Life 2?

What's your point exactly about Half Life 2 and Deus Ex?

BTW, I've been playing those games myself on my XBOX... These are great games!

[mahelgel]

Originally posted by Gemini


Can you provide a *vcr file with this "bouncing"?

I don't have any issue like that I think, even with default setup.

seems like Linus was onto something, but most of it was because at some turns the fps dropped a bit and that exaggerated the feeling of "bouncing" quite a bit... less eyecandy and with smoother fps it didn't seem as bad

[Gemini]

just have a look...

[Menace]

I just downloaded the demo, looks promising. The eye-candy is very good, given I am running all the settings at max at 1440x900.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Seems nice, shame its unplayable on keyboard.

For people worrying about front end bounce under braking, remember where you are. An F1 car absolutely tears up the braking zones on a race track. The faster the straight, the more washboard the brake zone becomes. So thats why your car is going to pogo under braking quite badly, especially just before turn in.

[carbonfibre]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Seems nice, shame its unplayable on keyboard.

For people worrying about front end bounce under braking, remember where you are. An F1 car absolutely tears up the braking zones on a race track. The faster the straight, the more washboard the brake zone becomes. So thats why your car is going to pogo under braking quite badly, especially just before turn in.

unplayable? Im getting along quite well with my keyboard. Ofcourse you can't turn off TC etc but that's logical.

[longhornx]

i dont have a racing wheel!!!

[Dolph]

Originally posted by Linus27
Gemini,

What RSC debate? I read about the wipers from an interview with the developers. They mentioned that they could easily of added wipers but they would not all be accurate for every car and so left them out. My point was despite PC's being the more powerful platform, even simple things like wipers can cause difficulties.

That sounds as stupid as "I could easily drive a race car, but I would crash at the first corner"