87 replies to this topic

[Pedro 917]

Read in Autosport of July 20th (merely a footnote):

Belgium's Wallonia local government, which is responsible for the region around the Spa-Francorchamps circuit announced a multi-million pound upgrade to its facilities. Its investments follows a bankruptcy row with the previous promoter and demands from Ecclestone that Spa's infrastructure be upgraded.....
As a result of that, the La Source hairpin will be moved 100 metres further from its present position to allow the pit and paddock area to be upgraded.
Need more hospitality units Bernie?
Nothing's sacred anymore.

[BRG]

I read about this too. But which way are they to move the hairpin? Further away? If so, how?

[David M. Kane]

Follow the money...

[Rob Semmeling]

Originally posted by BRG
I read about this too. But which way are they to move the hairpin? Further away? If so, how?

As I understand, it's going to be slightly closer to the village of Francorchamps. This will increase the lenght of the start/finish straightaway, and thus also of the pitlane. There's sufficient room for this relocation, I believe. It will be interesting to see how this affects the entry speed to Eau Rouge, though.


It's hard to understand why these changes are necessary. As I wrote in an earlier thread about Spa: they've used the same facilities for years, and now all of the sudden, they're no good anymore? Furthermore: the changes are required only for Formula 1. Seems to me the circuits have to go great lenghts to keep F1 (I guess that means BE) happy.

I wonder how circuit owners/directors think of F1 visits nowadays: burden or blessing?

[RTH]

Time some of these circuits got together and formulated a programme of rival attractions for high quality motor racing televised entertainment, then they would not have to put up with it. I 'm sure we could all come up with the ideal 20 races over a weekend based on the best of what has gone before over the last 40 odd years . To an extent by devising technical and sporting rules and circuit layouts you can put the clock back.

[Paul Parker]

The perpetual bureaucratic fiddling and interference with the infrastructure and regulatory framework of F1, its cars, circuits, facilities and modus operandi are a mirror image of national and local government.

Those who pay for it are the least likely to benefit.

[James Page]

I think it's a great shame that circuits have to bend over backwards for F1, diluting their character for the sake of one weekend a year. At some point, surely, they're going to tell Ecclestone to get lost.

Apparently, the Bus Stop chicane is to be moved back towards Blanchimont as well.

[Pedro 917]

Maybe Bernie wants to see the cars turning into the new La Source hairpin right in front of his door.
I've heard he owns the white house on the left...

[Keir]

This move should not effect much of anything. Spa is Spa !!

[Rob Semmeling]

Originally posted by Keir
This move should not effect much of anything. Spa is Spa !!

Without knowing the extent of the construction works - I think I agree.

I'm also rather excited about Spa being over 7 kilometres in lenght once more (it was in 1994 when that ridiculous chicane at Eau Rouge was temporarily inserted). Something about long circuits....evokes past times, when the circuits were long and men were still men.

*switches Nostalgia Mode off*

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Keir
This move should not effect much of anything. Spa is Spa !!

Very true, it won't affect any of the important parts of Spa - Eau Rouge etc.
The Bus-Stop is just a joke that is best ignored and hairpins aren't much better - neither test a driver's real abilities.

Given the location of the hotel at La Source I assume La Source will be moving a bit further round the circuit (e.g. eat into the woods opposite the hotel).

Supposedly the reason is to increase the size of the paddock - presumably they mean the F1 paddock (nothing else counts does it) since the rest of the paddock is huge.
But unless they widen the hairpin considerably it is hard to imagine it will create much usable space?

It would be nice if all the teams and circuits got together and started dictating to Max & Bernie (there is no legal (or moral) reason they shouldn't), but M&B always seem to be able to bribe one of them into toeing the line then the rest follow, all of which just re-inforces the impression that the teams are more interested in money than racing.

[Pedro 917]

I'm more looking at it from a nostalgic point of view. La Source won't be La Source anymore, to me it's a sacred place that will become part of the (probably) pitlane.

[angst]

Originally posted by RTH
Time some of these circuits got together and formulated a programme of rival attractions for high quality motor racing televised entertainment, then they would not have to put up with it. I 'm sure we could all come up with the ideal 20 races over a weekend based on the best of what has gone before over the last 40 odd years . To an extent by devising technical and sporting rules and circuit layouts you can put the clock back.

I keep banging on about this, and the fact that the circuits don't seem to understand their potential power. They are all running scared. Why? Probably because of the links between Max and Bernie - something the EU have not really addressed, feckless tw*ts, in their previous investigations into anti-competitive practices. I really think though, that with some collaboration the (particularly EU) circuits could 'unionise' and leave Max and Bernie having to bend over backwards to accomodate them .

One thing I've wondered about is why no European based Champcar-type series hasn't been considered. Both Lola and Dallara have designs, I'm sure Cosworth would be a) capable and b) happy for the extra income of supplying the engines. There are plenty of teams looking for top level motor racing who are never going to get to F1 - are they happy with F3/GP2/A1Grand Prix? There are drivers who get stuck below F1, or are shifted out of F1. There is a market for a real racing series, and there are circuits.

[Arturo Pereira]

Maybe they need to enlarge the pits to make room for the big egos

[Paul Taylor]

However did they fit the following teams' pit garages in at Spa, back in 1989?:

McLaren
Tyrrell
Williams
Brabham
Arrows
Lotus
March
Osella
Benetton
Dallara
Minardi
Ligier
Ferrari
Lola
Coloni
Eurobrun
Zakspeed
Onyx
Rial
AGS

I make that 20 teams in total...each team having two cars, except Eurobrun who only had one (excluding spares if they had them back then). Did half of those teams have to set up in the spectactor car park?

[MCH]

Originally posted by Pedro 917
I'm more looking at it from a nostalgic point of view. La Source won't be La Source anymore, to me it's a sacred place that will become part of the (probably) pitlane.

Exactly, it is one of the important landmarks at Spa. Just think about the amount of images taken at or inside the corner, it has been there for eight or so decades...

When I was there for the Spa 24hrs testday earlier this month I did notice that some treecutting had taken place on the outside of la source in the direction of Francorchamps. I assumed it was done to put some more grandstands there but I guess it might be for other purposes reading this thread .

[MPea3]

Originally posted by Pedro 917
I'm more looking at it from a nostalgic point of view. La Source won't be La Source anymore, to me it's a sacred place that will become part of the (probably) pitlane.

While I certainly agree with your sentiment, La Source to me has already been destroyed by changing it from an acute intersection of 2 roads to the widened corner it already is. Moving it is just further butchering it.

[Pedro 917]

OK, but at least it still is the same spot. In the future, that spot will be covered by some other pit or pitlane. When I'm standing on the inside of the La Source Hairpin, I always think of all the great drivers that once went through it so I can't help but thinking that it will never be the same when they'll put it 100 meters further up the road. Sentiment definitily...

[LittleChris]

BRING BACK BURNENVILLE & BUGGER BERNIE !! BBBBB !! Barry Boor - we need some more badges !

[Ray Bell]

Of course, it will make the entry to La Source faster, won't it?

So the shunts there will be more dramatic...

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Of course, it will make the entry to La Source faster, won't it?

So the shunts there will be more dramatic...

Ray, they will be more dramatic and faster , it will really show who has the best chassis and driver combo.............................

[ianselva]

If I remember correctly , the current F1 pits were only built in the last few years. Admittedly Bernie does own the hotel at the bottom of the hill but who exactly wants all this extra pits space , as mentioned earlier it can only be to hold bigger egos.
Unfortunately the public in general seem to fall for the F1 con trick all the time, and hope for something good out on track - They never seem to learn. Yet the crowds (?) that pay to go to any other meeting is usually outnumbered by the drivers and their pit crew. The ticket sales is all that the circuits get out of an F1 weekend, all other revenue from concessions, advertising etc goes to Bernie.

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Of course, it will make the entry to La Source faster, won't it?

So the shunts there will be more dramatic...

Er..no ! They'll soon be demanding a chicane there - which I grant you will actually lead lead to more shunts, but equally to less entertainment and less drama...just more shunts!

Simon Lewis
www.simonlewis.com

[MonzaDriver]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Follow the money...

Dave speak your mind.

MonzaDriver.

[zoff2005]

Maybe the idea is to start the GP after La Source and avoid the usual first corner pile up.

[Pedro 917]

And pile up at the bottom of Eau Rouge at 180mph....

[David M. Kane]

MonzaDriver, Paul Taylor and Pedro 917:

I watched "Grand Prix" on DVD for the 2nd time in two weeks last night; and like JP Sarti I'm am starting to feel tired of the racing. Anytime you have a Dictator you get to live with the good; and you don't dare to question the bad!

BTW, I watched the Champ Car race from Edmonton last week, they were bloody quick and they were passing each other like crazed Formula Ford drivers, I couldn't sit down, I had to stand-up and watch it! Unfortunately, it's a spec formula, one tire, one engine...otherwise it's real racing.
Love to see them at a place like Spa!

Paul Taylor's point is very interesting. Where exactly did they put those 20 teams? Well for one thing they didn't have all of these Corporate elites only "Spaceships" like the Red Bull's Energy Center, and Bernie's own mobile center and the army of mercanaries to protect these dandies.
Look at the space those elitist take up...it's huge! Hey! They pay the bills, I just resent it when they look at me like I'm sort of untouchable because I absolutely refuse to wear Guccis and Puccis to a bloody race track. The Paddock Club and Team "Motorhome" requires several acres...at least!
After all F1 IS for them isn't it?

Until there is a Paris-type fan riot, it'll probably continue. F1 needs a French Revolution...including
"the blade".

Hopefully, some of the original spirit of the track will return with these changes. I sure hope so.
Being American and being retired I don't follow the ECU and it's rules; but F1 seems immune to "fair play" rules as long as they continue to allow themselves to be blackmailed by Bernie.
Everytime Bernie pinches them they give in. Face it the guy is amazingly powerful and a great salesmen.

Until everyone does a Peter Finch "Network" revolt and stands up and goes to the window, sticks their out the window and screams, "I'm Not going to take this anymore!"

I strongly suggest everyone go to Pitpass.com and read Mike Lawerence's column on this mess called F1.

Bring back Watkins Glen, bring back Long Beach, bring back Mosport.

Herman Tilke kiss my elbow...

[Keir]

I'm all for bringing back Watkins, Beach and Mosport !!

[David M. Kane]

F1 hired a PR firm this week...even Bernie realizes their in big trouble.

[David Hyland]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Of course, it will make the entry to La Source faster, won't it?

So the shunts there will be more dramatic...

Or will they move the start line as well, so the grid doesn't need to bend around the corner? (Is the current F1 grid still long enough to bend around the corner?)

[Ray Bell]

Yeah, I thought of that after I posted...

We just have to accept these things, I guess.

[roger ellis]

Originally posted by Paul Taylor
However did they fit the following teams' pit garages in at Spa, back in 1989?

My son & I attended all 3 days of this event. The Pre-qualifiers had to use the pits located downhill after La Source.

IIRC the teams that missed the cut were then instructed to leave the circuit!

[Paul Taylor]

Originally posted by David M. Kane

Bring back Watkins Glen, bring back Long Beach, bring back Mosport.

Herman Tilke kiss my elbow...

You might be interested to know that in a recent poll on my forum (still running for another three days), Long Beach got the most votes in the question "Which circuit would you most like to see return to the Formula 1?" Brands Hatch was the runner up, with the Oesterreichring and Adelaide following closely behind, miles ahead of the other circuits.

As for Herrmann Tilke, I very strongly dislike him. He butchered Hockenheim and Fuji and made some very lifeless and artificial circuits in Bahrain and China. Agreed, Hockenheim was probably boring for the drivers, but then you might say that about Monza too. However, both have/had great character. Fuji was also quite boring, but definitely not lifeless. It's now a shadow of its former self - a large piece of tarmac with some white lines painted on it. To think it's going to replace Suzuka on the F1 calendar... what is Bernie thinking?!?!

Incidentally, in my poll, Suzuka and Monza were voted joint 1st as the best circuit on the current F1 calendar, with Monaco in 2nd just behind. Again, the other circuits had very few votes between them and so they trailed behind by a long way. Most people said Shanghai should be removed from the calendar, along with the Hungaroring, Bahrain and Indianapolis just behind. Who designed the current Indy circuit? Was that Tilke too?

[David M. Kane]

I believe Tilke did Indy.

[MCH]

Some more on this matter from a Belgian autosport site. The F1 pit area is getting a big upgrade indeed, along with a new layout of the busstop area (again). Both changes are for the better in my opinion, the current busstop has seen a fair amount of accidents and t-boning in particular.

As for La Source, I can't really make out if it has moved or not, assuming these artistic rendering are accurate.

http://pitstoptv.bel...hp?newsid=12482 (in Dutch)

[GPLEagle]

I think Arturo just nailed the real problem.
Incidentally, how much bigger is the 'old' pits ('proper' pits) on the other side of La Source, and how many cars take part in the 24 hour race?

In my mind, this just shows everything that is wrong with F1. At a time when we have rule changes in the middle of the year, lack of overtaking, lots of boring new tracks, they plan to make modifications to (one of) the best track(s) around - not to improve racing, but to fit bigger motor homes... Way to go F1, let's focus on the important problems.

[Arturo Pereira]

And another problem derived from moving La Source (maybe it will even be renamed )
is that they are putting that hairpin far away from Eau Rouge, probably one of the latest mytical turns yet in the season. As a consequence, I bet they will put a chicane before ER sooner than later.
If they really need bigger pits, I think they should demolish the bus-stop and extend the pits in that direction.
Is La Source dangerous ?? Sure it is, as it is Eau Rouge. But isn´t F1 suposed to be a dangerous sport ?? If they want to prevent accidents at La Source they should move the S/F line to the old location, AFTER La Source. To pretend to start a F1 GP right before a hairpin and that there won´t be accidents there is stupid. They should force the F1 drivers to use their mirrors but perhaps this is also ´unsafe´ ... oh well.

[GPLEagle]

mirror - what mirror - why do I need one of those

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by GPLEagle
mirror - what mirror - why do I need one of those

To confirm you look handsome with that brand new helmet

[GPLEagle]

But if your ego doesn't fit the pitlane, how is it going to fit in one of those tiny mirrors...

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by GPLEagle
But if your ego doesn't fit the pitlane, how is it going to fit in one of those tiny mirrors...

$50,000,000 a year can make miracles

[Kingsleyrob]

I agree with Pedro.

La Source is a classic corner - like the Station/Loews/whatever it's called now Hairpin at Monaco. La Source brings to mind images of Moss and Hawthorn with the large Engelbert ad in the background.

I also miss the classic old Becketts at Siverstone too.

Don't expect Bernie is too interested in nostalgia anyway - too busy building lifeless circuits in the sand and chasing the tobacco dollar.

And just to remind Bernie that there's also another meaning to the word 'banking' here's a shot of another interesting corner.

What chance this corner in 2006??

Rob

[BRG]

Originally posted by Kingsleyrob
La Source is a classic corner

It is a corner we are well accustomed to, certainly, but I would hesitate to call it a classic. It is just a very slow, tight hairpin with no particular distinctive factor or character. It doesn't really tax the driver excessively, except when the whole pack are trying to get around it on lap 1. Eau Rouge, 130R, Stowe, Parabolica, Casino Square; these are some of the classic corners IMO, which reward greater skill and commitment.

Yes, La Source is an emblematic and historic corner but if it is replaced with another similar hairpin, will it matter?

[MrAerodynamicist]

perhaps 'iconic' is a better word?

[Kingsleyrob]

Hi BRG

I was about to check the dictionary definition of 'classic' but thought I would have to don my anorak first so decided not to.

Clearly we have differing views on 'classic' - for me it's about feelings of nostalgia, which after all is what this Forum is all about. I agree it's not the most taxing corner on the F1 scene, but it's very name and position has nostalgic appeal to me.

When you look at the old track especially, it's like a pinnacle. A journey from La Source would take you through on an 8 mile or so journey via Malmedy and Stavelot, taking in the Masta Straight en route.

We've been fortunate enough to have an evocative section of the old track still in place, and to lose that original corner will be rather sad I think.

So to me, yes, it will matter if it's replaced. But each to his own of course!;)

Rob

[Kingsleyrob]

Iconic is good - yeah - I can go with that!

Classic is good too though...;)

Rob

[BRG]

Don't get me wrong, I would much rather they left La Source alone (or better yet, that they removed that extra run off area on the exit that it semms to have aquired recently) than changed it. But I think we should keep our powder dry and conserve our bile for the real atrocities that Bernie and his minions inflict only too frequently!

Sometimes change can be good (anathema on TNF, I know, but I always was a paid-up member of the awkward squad!).

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by BRG

Yes, La Source is an emblematic and historic corner but if it is replaced with another similar hairpin, will it matter? [/B]

Yes, it will Imo, it is as emblematic as Eau Rouge. Easier to take though, but it was there back in the 30s, so, if it is emblematic and historic, why to change it ?? Because nowadays cars/drivers can not take it without crashing each other ?? I bet this is not a problem of La Source ;)

[carsten.meurer]

very few of you seem to really know what spa looks like today !

do not believe the media that tries to make you believe spa is still that iconic circuit,
eau rouge one of the oldest corners still to exist in f1... all bulls&%t !!!

i went to drive in spa in 94 for the first time, and since then i cannot recognize any part of the
modern track any more !
eau rouge is far more straight, the run offs have changed the character as much as the straightening has changed the line.
la source has become twice the width !

all the gravel traps on the new section are tarmac now, and in blanchimont they wait for europes
biggest shopping centre to be build - the parking lot is sitting there ready to go !

the old bus stop was actually the best chicane i raced up to that point !
great rythm ! the wall and tire stacks as apex was good and worked even for single seaters !

the new bus stop is a bad joke !

for me spa is no longer a track i like to go to ! pointless !
track lost its challenge, and the belgian marshalls became ever more unfriendly...

is it a shame that spa was destroied ?
yes, it surely is ! but it has happpened already and completely !
a further change to the hairpin that is in the place where la source was some 15 years ago
does not really matter for me !

[MCH]

Originally posted by carsten.meurer
all the gravel traps on the new section are tarmac now, and in blanchimont they wait for europes biggest shopping centre to be build - the parking lot is sitting there ready to go !

Of course we had all wanted to live through another few of those lovely breathtaking minutes of uncertainty as we had with Luciano Burti buried under that tyrewall there in 2001... but allas they've made a safety improvement, booh on them!

At least give them credit for having not changed the actual course of the track at Blanchimont. Oh and Eau Rouge hasn't seen any layout changes since 1994 in case you missed.

Spa destroyed, certainly not with the changes they've made after 1978 if that's your point. The place is still able have me in awe after all those years, looking up at radillion or standing on the inside of blanchimont.