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Floyd Clymer's 'statements' on Fangio.


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#1 Gary Davies

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 16:21

I was flipping through the September 1963 issue of Motor Sport a while ago and my eyes alighted on this small article:

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What particularly got my attention was, "Floyd Clymer should really be impressed by European Road Races (should that be 'Racers'?) now, and if Jim Clark becomes 1963 World Champion he will be able to make-up for some of the statements that Clymer made about Fangio a few years ago."

What statements? I'd never heard of such remarks but immediately the hoo-ha surrounding the Race of Two Worlds came to mind as a possible catalyst. A bit of gentle Googling led me back to TNF, namely member EB's signature - ' "I contend that you are not only a poor sportsman but a phoney champion of the world" - Floyd Clymer to Juan Manuel Fangio, 1957.'

If that's what was said ... a bit of aggro!

Does anyone have any insights as to what was going on?

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#2 David M. Kane

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 16:41

Could it be because Fangio stepped out of the Ferrari Indy car and said, "no thank you". In Nick Mason's CD of race car sounds he quotes Juan Fangio saying it was the worst race car he ever drove. Thus Floyd being ignorant on European racing probably popped off as we Americans do on ocassion. Of course this is pure speculation on my part. I know nothing about Floyd and frankly I always saw him as a guy who wrote books on how to fix American cars, etc. In other words, hardly a world traveler, i.e. old school American racer.

Not even a Doo Wop guy, probably Benny Goodman...

#3 Collombin

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 16:53

It's all to do with the top Grand Prix drivers' reluctance to compete against the Americans at the Monza Race of Two Worlds in 1957. Indeed, if the Ecurie Ecosse team hadn't entered then it would have been an American only event I think.

The Americans were disappointed at Fangio in particular because he was the World Champion, a title that Clymer felt was unjustified until he had raced and beaten the likes of Jimmy Bryan on oval tracks.

(Slightly ironic criticism from an American, given their insistence on terms like the World Series, but anyway...........)

So Clymer goes off on one, spouting blinkered rubbish about Fangio. He also offers Fangio staged financial rewards for entering and competing at Indianapolis in 1958 (he eventually gave Fangio $500 for entering, which Fangio donated to a cancer charity).

The European press understandably didn't take too kindly to Clymer's comments, but Fangio himself was ever the gentleman about it, and indeed there seem to have been no hard feelings at all between the two men afterwards. Fangio, it seems, did earn belated respect from the Americans after all, even if double edged.

Sample quote from Clymer's 1958 yearbook:- "Fangio is undoubtedly the best driver in the world - if he hadn't been he would have been killed, the way he tried to straighten out the Indianapolis curves as he fought the car every inch of the way".

It was later discovered that there was a crack in the chassis of Fangio's car which allowed it to flex, and contributed to why he found it difficult.

Clymer's dismissive comments about foreigners ever being competitive at Indy make amusing reading with the benefit of hindsight………

If any of my understanding of the situation is incorrect (I was born in the 1970s and have never set foot in America in my life!) then I would happily welcome corrections / discussions on the issue.

My sig is a direct quote from the 1957 Clymer yearbook.

#4 Gary Davies

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 16:57

Thanks EB. :up:

#5 David M. Kane

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 17:04

Ditto!

#6 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 17:24

This is part chapter 34-Indianapolis: The man and his circumstances, from the book ´Fangio – When the man is more than the myth´ by Juan Manuel Fangio and Roberto CArozzo – Juan Manuel Fangio Foundation Editions – December 2002. I have the Spanish version, so this is a translation from the original :blush:



But if in 1956 American car makers were interested in Fangio, his victories in Sebring and in Cuba raised up the interest of the American public, who learned a lot about the argentine in newspapers and magazines, including ´Life´ front page appearance.
Fangio did not accept those offers and even today he thinks he was right.
-In such a fast race like this you can not improvise. Indianapolis, a typical American race, one needs to be well prepared. It would have been ideal to stay there for 2 months before the race, to get practice, and even to compete at dirt ovals, that were very popular there on those years. From dirt ovals came the majority of the drivers that were participating at the Indy 500.
His position about the necessity of such an adaptation to the American way of racing was going to be, in June 1957, the same of all the Formula 1 drivers, who refused to race their cars against the American cars, specially prepared for oval, at the banked Monza.
-They wanted us to race with Sport Cars, prepared to race at road courses or public roads, against cars specifically made to turn to one side only.
The slight made Floyd Clymer, an American book publisher oriented towards motor sports, to name Fangio as a ´false world champion´. In his open letter, he did not doubt to say: I do not believe that somebody may speak about you as a ´world champion´ after you runned away from Monza and because you never raced at Indianapolis´, and ´I think that you knew the American drivers would have left you with your pants down and only for this reason you did not show up at Monza´.
Clymer, as if all the interest of Fangio in car racing would be based on the money, also offered him 500 dollars once he signed up for the 1958 Indy 500 edition and after he was accepted (that is, once he had passed the test all rookies had to pass); additional 1.000 dollars if he qualified in one of the 1st 33 positions; 2.500 dollars if he finished higher than 5th in an American car or 5.000 if he could do that with another kind of car.
When Floyd Clymer´s open letter was published, Fangio was qualifying for the Grand Prix of Reims and lowering all his previous records. Fangio, who never liked to be involved in controversies, never answered to Clymer´s references to his world champion skills and only dedicated some words to the race:
-There was, as usual, lots of journalists in the track. So I told everybody that asked me about Clymer´s words: ¨I am not interested in the money; what I am especially interested is if I would be able to drive a competitive car. I want a good car to race¨.
Of course one thing was Fangio´s reaction and another quite different the one of the European journals that made lots of jokes of Clymer´s open letter. As the controversy raised up, Clymer got what he wanted: free publicity.
The Spanish philosopher Ortega y Gasset always talked about ´the man and his circumstances´. Fangio had refused to participate in the Indy 500s with cars that were competitive and he did this because of the high concept he had about the sport ….
´I am not going to Indianapolis only with my World Champion title, but also representing the European drivers and the kind of sport we practiced, so I can not risk to make rookie mistakes´.
This Fangio was not the same that started the 1958 F1 Season free of compromises, having just agree with Maserati to drive their cars at 4 races only … ´and we’ll see what happens next´. His will of racing was very low by then. This Fangio was the one who decided to give a try to the Indy 500.
He accepted an unexpected invitation. After his problems in Cuba and being very popular in the USA, and while he was at New York to be interviewed in the Ed Sullivan show, Fangio was contacted by the owners of the D.A. Special, a front-engined car specifically made to race at dirt ovals, in spite of its 4.2lts engine. He was asked to drive that car in the 100 Miles of Trenton, to take place on March 30th.
Fangio apologized. He could not stay in the USA for that longer. However, he accepted to make some tests at Trenton on March 7th.
Johnny Thompson, usual driver of the D.A. Special, tried the car before Fangio. After some adjustments to the driver seat, Juan did 13 laps, with his best one in 36.98s, 1.77s slower than the track record.
He went back to Argentina and on April 24th he gave a press conference. He had made the decision of racing at Indianapolis and he was going to face an uncommon experience in his professional life.
-Indianapolis is one of the 3 races I could never win. I could not win the Mille Miglia in spite of being 2nd twice, I could not win the 24 Hs of Le Mans after being very close in 1955 with Mercedes Benz, and I could not win the Indy500 because I never had a competitive car to race there´.
Here shows a man that was better known at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway than at any other track in Argentina: Mr. Vicente Alvarez, M.D.. I contacted him several years after Fangio visited Indianapolis:
-In 1957, A. E. Dean mailed me 1st and wrote me a letter next, to see if I could contact Fangio to see if he would be interested about racing the Indy500 driving a Dean Van Lines Special, specially prepared for him. Fangio answered to me that he was very grateful about the invitation but he did not think it was correct to accept it because there were many months left before the race and he was not sure about participating. I told Dean about Fangio´s decision and then he contacted a ´rookie´: Anthony Joseph Foyt (Foyt qualified in 12th position at 230.156km/h and he was doing well in the race until he had problems in lap 148 and he had to retire.)
-Fangio asked me to meet him in his office several times, and I provided him with lots of information about the Indy500. In January 1958 I knew that Fangio or Giambertone had made an agreement with George Walther Jr. I was going to the USA and I left him my address and phone number so he could contact me. HE talked to me almost daily. Walther´s car was not very fast …
Fangio arrived to Indianapolis on April 30th. In his first contact with journalists, he said that the money Clymer had promised to pay him was going to be donated to charity. He had been at Dayton on April 28th, where he had seen the car he was going to drive for the first time. Fangio said:
-Car owners were brake makers and also owned a foundry. The car was named as their business: ´Dayton Steel Foundry´. To tell you the truth, the first impression was not good. The car was stored in a garage, not in a workshop and the spare parts were spreaded all around the place. I was very disappointed. I was there because an Italian engineer named Gianni Dotto, who had worked for Alfa Romeo, had been in contact with Giambertone and Dotto told him that he had been working with this car and also that he had been studying a new gearbox specifically made for Indianapolis. When I tested the car I was convinced that there was no need to improve this.
With the 3 rookie stickers in the rear of the white Dayton Steel Foundry car, Juan Manuel Fangio started with the driving tests, also named efficiency tests. The first test consisted in a 10 laps round at an average speed of 115mph; he could not lap slower than 114mph nor faster than 119mph. Next test established an average speed of 120mph as the maximum. Both tests were done on May 7th. Next day he did the last 2 tests that consisted in 10 laps at an average speed of 125mph and 130mph respectively. All around the track there were Indy500 veterans who would judge the rookie driving, besides what the chronometers said.
-The tests looked perfect for me –Fangio recalled- The consecutive tests, with increasing average speeds, higher each time, is a fantastic system, because what one needs at Indianapolis is to keep a consistent pace. It is a very dangerous track and one must try to keep the pace at the highest possible speed.
I passed all the tests, and there was a ceremony to take out the rookie stripes out of my car. From that day on, and during next week, I tried to go as fast as I could, but the car was not going very well. First we had problems with the steering but they were worked out soon. Next we had an engine failure. The team did not have another magneto so I asked another team to lend one to us. When I noticed that the mechanics could not fine-tune the 4 cylinders engine, which was very easy, I realized that I might go home. We will not make a decent performance. That car was 3 years old at that moment. Indianapolis is a speed race and, in spite of all the advantages we could take in the pit stops, there usually win the ones that started at the front rows.
The chance to have a Grand Prix champion racing at Indianapolis was not going to be wasted. Mr. Lew Welch, owner of the Novi Automotive Air Conditioning Special, invited Fangio to test one of the 2 cars of his team, both engined with V8s with mechanical turbines, unique about their disposition in grid dominated by Offenhauser 4-in-line engines, also with compressors.
Who reminds those days is James Radio Gardner, the only member of the Novi Team still alive, including the owner. I was presented to Gardner by Mr. Al Bloemker, vice-president of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, who suggested me to interview him about Fangio´s days at the oval. All the happy atmosphere of the Indy track in the 500 month revived with Radio Gardner´s letter (´I was named that way because when the radio started, 64 years ago, I decided to build a receiver´.)
-You have found the right person –started Gardner- because I was who started the engine when Fangio went for testing, the only mechanic that could do that because of Mr. Welch orders. When Fangio went into the car, and using Mr. Dotto as interpreter, I started a conversation with him asking him to tell me when he was ready so I could start the engine. Fangio answered: ´Pronto´. I also asked him what he would say if something went wrong, and he said louder: ´Pronto´. Fangio seemed to be in good mood about my precautions. When he stepped down of the car he congratulated me because of the way I started the engine and also because of my concepts about safety. That is what Mr. Dotto told me.
From Radio Gardner memories, to the ones of Juan Manuel Fangio:
-I went out to the track only once with the Novi. I did about 10 laps and I was glad to find that the other driver of the team (Paul Russo) could not pass me, no even close the gap. The Novi was the only V8 engine in Indianapolis by then. It had a mechanical turbine and the power came suddenly at high revs, so being a difficult car to stop, like all the ones that used compressors. Even if the BRM had a 16 cylinders engine, the Novi reminded me of that one for sure. The high power at high revs was hard on the tyres, and it was very difficult to drive at Indianapolis because we had to accelerate while turning.
When Fangio stepped down from the Novi he had reached the fastest speed with a V8 engine. This was pointed out by the ´Sunday News´, 25 May 1958, by publishing the average speed of the world champion in his first encounter with this car: 135mph. With the Dayton Steel Foundry his best speed had been 142.8mph on 9 May. Fangio was convinced that any of these cars would have let him qualify in the first rows and his idea was not wrong. The Dayton, driven by Mike Magill, qualified in 31st position at 142.276mph and finished the race in 17th position. The Novi was not going to have better luck. Paul Russo qualified one of the Novis in 14th position at 142.959mph and finished the race in 18th position, one lap behind the leader because of problems with the radiator. The second Novi, driven by Bill Cheesebourgh, qualified 33rd and last, at 142.353mph and was going to finish the race in 10th position. It is doubtful that if any of the cars would have been driven by Fangio, they would have gone better than 5th, the qualification speed record was established by Dick Rathmann, with a McNamara Special, at 145.974mph.
Fangio left Indianapolis by mid May, off to New York. He met with Dr Vicente Alvarez at the Saint Moritz Hotel and there he conceded a long interview, later published in the ´National Speed Sport News´ and republished later by Floyd Clymer in the ´1958 Anuary´ of the Indy500.
Fangio´s vision about the Indy500 particular atmosphere showed the differences between this kind of motor sports and the European one. Since the content is still valid, Dr Alvarez let me reproduce it here. The main part is:
´…Before anything else, I would want to thank the authorities of the Speedway and the ones of the USAC (United States Auto Club) because of their cooperation. They wanted me to feel like at home and they made it. They took care of each detail that could help to make me feel ok and their good will was as high as the one of the drivers. I had little contact with them and I would want them to consider me as one of them. IN fact, their cooperation exceeded all my expectations. It was clear to me that they were playing honestly and they gave me all the details I might need to drive in the Speedway. I know they gave me a gold mine of information, which they got the hard way I know. I have all this very present. It is an example of the gentlemen they are and also of their sportsmanship, and I will not forget this. Now you know why I would want to come back.
There are other reasons, and very important ones. First: I love the Speedway and, after this short experience, I can understand very well why it fascinates American drivers. It is a well proportioned track and a true challenge, but once you find the proper race line, then one starts to enjoy it. I have found that to drive there is simply fascinating. I watched the local drivers doing their work very carefully and I got a lot of learnings from them. I listened to their warning; they did not keep any secret and they were quite open to me all the time. I am absolutely sure they could make me a real Speedway driver if I have enough time to use all their knowledge in practice. Unfortunately, my training time was not long or fluid as I was expecting, mainly because of the problems with the cars that had me waiting in the pits for longer that the expected.
After all the tests, I could lap as faster as I wanted to go, but unfortunately I do not think the car was fast enough. A little problem with the steering was soon worked out, but I could never put the engine in the high revs level I was looking for. The best I could do was to reach 5800rpm in the long straights, while I thought I would have needed at least 6200. So I could never reach the average speed of 145mph that I fixed as target. Even those laps were not easy, since we had problems all the time. Sometimes it was the magneto, sometimes some oil leak, sometimes fuel pumps. One of the practice sessions consisted in 6 laps and I had to pit stop 6 times to check different setups. I was convinced I could get the 145mph yet. We spent 2 weeks and I could not complete a full practice session. The car was not going well and the top speeds were around 144mph by then. My car was not going to make it. Too many different problems. In those hard times, I could appreciate the real value of honorable behavior. It was evident to me that the local guys wanted me to race there, but there was little they could to. Mike Margill (who was also appointed to drive that car) was helping me all the time, about the way to drive in the turns, about the suspension settings, etc.. The car handled much better after his suggestions were implemented.
I spent 2 weeks at the Speedway and I think I could have done a good job there, and in this case, all the credit should go to the American drivers because I understand that their assistance would have shortened the length of the practice time I needed. My case was a bit more difficult than the usual rookie there because I had a quite different experience with F1 cars. Anyway, I was adapting myself very quickly and I was enjoying it a lot.
Of course this is totally different from Grand Prix racing. I always wanted to know how a speedway car would handle and I found it was worth the effort. These chassis handled wonderfully and they seemed to have a lot of work on them. One just needed to find the proper race line and they will make wonders. It was a pity I could not get a higher average speed. The guys also told me about what to do in case of problems in the track. I had the chance to use their advices when I made a spin in a turn while I was trying to pass 2 cars and the rear end just lost grip. I was worried about car’s reaction and, when I stopped in the pits, I was informed that this could have happened because the fuel tank had been filled up. Up to that moment, I had tested the car with little fuel load and the extra weight that I was carrying put the car out of balance at that critical moment.
After about 2 weeks of testing the car, without being able to reach what I considered an acceptable average speed, I understood that my chances of making a good race were vanishing. The constant problems turned the practice schedule upside down and I thought it would not be correct to start such a schedule with other car. So I had to retire from the competition. I was also informed that British Petroleum was not going to make an exception with our agreement and I thought that the American owners were not going to use BP oil in their car, having already an agreement with Mobilgas, and even if they would be interested in me driving one of their cars. Mr. Welch wanted me to test the Novi and I liked to do it; and I found that I could not be in conditions to drive any other new car (in spite Mr. Welch offered him an important amount of money to qualify and race his Novi). I did several laps at 135mph as an average, and I enjoyed them a lot, especially when I noticed Paul Russo was also in the track at the same time, with a similar car.
My experience at Indianapolis ended in great frustration but this is only a part of the story. What really matters is that I enjoyed speedway racing and I am looking at the future to have another chance. But there is something much more attractive than the track and the cars, and it is the wonderful atmosphere of fair and open nobleness that prevails there. This is the main reason my otherwise frustrating experience, as one of the most enjoyable facts in my life´.
And such a demonstration of nobleness was sampled by the Speedway State Bank informed that Mr. Floyd Clymer deposited 500 dollars as being required by the judges the editor would name after that. They agreed, with Duan Carter, that Fangio earned them because the authorities of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway had accepted to include Fangio in the list of drivers. Those 500 dollars, by Fangio´s requirement, were credited into the account of the ´Raymond Runyan Cancer Foundation´. Even Clymer himself was going to recognize later that, even if Fangio did not race nor won the Indy500, he had conquered the affection of the American motor sports fans, even if he never came back to the Speedway to show why he was called ´Maestro´.


:)

#7 h4887

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 19:46

Originally posted by David M. Kane
I know nothing about Floyd and frankly I always saw him as a guy who wrote books on how to fix American cars, etc.

Not even a Doo Wop guy, probably Benny Goodman...


I thought he was a pianist. Didn't he have a hit in 1961 with 'On the Rebound'?

I'll get me coat :blush:

#8 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 19:50

Well, since no seems willing to step forward and say something about Floyd Clymer, I will.

First and foremost, we are the better for Floyd Clymer having passed our way. A pretty decent motorcycle racer in his day, Clymer also began publishing books in the 1930s and 1940s and continued to do so until the late 1960s or early 1970s. Not all were car repair manuals. Nor were all of his books concerning automobile racing annuals for the annual event at Indianapolis.

Thus Floyd being ignorant on European racing probably popped off as we Americans do on ocassion.


Floyd Clymer was scarcely "ignorant" of European racing. Indeed, Clymer was responsible for more than few young American men (and women for that matter) to become acqainted with European racing, and Grand Prix racing in particular. Clymer published Motor Racing with Mercedes Benz, by Geroge Monkhouse in 1945, for instance, a book that might be seen as the catalyst for many to become interested and fascinated by both Mercedes Benz racing cars and Grand Prix racing. In addition, there were books on Dick Seaman, German racing drivers (1950), and many others in which Europe and European racing were incorporated.

So Clymer goes off on one, spouting blinkered rubbish about Fangio.


I think the first comment is more aligned with the reality of the Clymer-Fangio Affair than the blinkered remark in the second statement.

As can be deciphered from the long excerpt from the Fangio biography, the entire affair was a bit more involved and convoluted than the usual stating that Clymer publicly insulted Fangio for no good reason or that Fangio could not cut it at Indianapolis -- both statements having supporters over the years and both not quite being true.

Something that is increasing seems to being lost as time passes is the context in which the statement "Clymer's dismissive comments about foreigners ever being competitive at Indy make amusing reading with the benefit of hindsight………" needs to be placed. When Clymer made his remarks, American and Europe might as well have been in different solar systems for the most part, especially when it came to the annual International Sweepstakes event at Indianapolis.

There is always a certain tone or attitude which conveys the way in which many then and now from the Eurocentric camp were and are dismissive of American racing, both in general and in particular. To an extent, this may have been a factor in what brought on Clymer's response. I don't know this with any certainty since I can only deduce this from having read his books for over a half century. Whatever may have truly motiovated Clymer to be critical of Fangio we will probably really never know, but within a decade of his remarks automobile racing had taken some twists and turns which caught Clymer and many others scratching their heads -- for the best of reasons.

By the way, one person who was very smitten by the American cars at Monza was a certain Continental Correspondent for Motor Sport......

Yr ftfl & hmbl srvt,

HDC

#9 Vitesse2

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 20:40

Dave: he was certainly a "world traveller" - or at least he went to Germany just as the motor industry and motor racing were getting back on their feet. He was so impressed with what he found that he published the book Don mentioned: "German Racing Cars and Drivers", which must still have seemed a risky enterprise in 1950. It's still a good base for research on both pre- and immediate post-WW2 German cars and drivers.

I've actually picked up a few Clymer editions of European books, since they are very much cheaper than the originals (at least if you buy them from the US!)

#10 David M. Kane

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 20:47

Dr. Capps:

Excellent points, obviously, once again my recon is faulty; but as someone who hasn't miss an Indy 500 by radio since 1950, I have defend myself, Floyd and the whole issue to the fact that all of this happened when we only had radio and newspapers...no TV and no Internet. How did anyone know anything?

The only books by Floyd at Barnes and Noble are the fix it books, thus my skin deep knowledge.

Obviously, I'm still evolving...I'll zip my big mouth up now.

#11 dretceterini

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 00:09

Clymer's Carrera Panamericana book is still one of the best on the subject, even though it was written 40 years ago..

#12 Terry Walker

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 02:17

QUOTE: (Slightly ironic criticism from an American, given their insistence on terms like the World Series, but anyway...........)


I always understood The World Series was so called because it was first sponsored by a New York newspaper called The World, long extinct.

#13 wildman

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 05:05

An interesting bio focusing on Clymer's motorcycling exploits can be found here:

http://www.motorcycl...page.asp?id=145

I just learned that he hailed from Berthoud, Colorado, which is just a few miles from my front door.

#14 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 07:26

(Slightly ironic criticism from an American, given their insistence on terms like the World Series, but anyway...........)


This is little different than the European concept of "international" or "world" competiition being defined as a competion being held within an area that would scarcely cover a (sometimes small) portion of the United States. But, I digress....

I always understood The World Series was so called because it was first sponsored by a New York newspaper called The World, long extinct.


Myth. They meant "world" as in the world. Thinking small was not one of their problems.

#15 Roger Clark

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 08:59

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps

By the way, one person who was very smitten by the American cars at Monza was a certain Continental Correspondent for Motor Sport......

Some time in the sixties, DSJ wrote that he agreed with Clymer's views but not his method of publicising them.

It is interesting to speculate whether Fangio would have been successful at Indianapolis. Even by the standard's of the time he was noted for his ability to adapt his driving style to the car, but not for the feedback he gave to the engineers. Tony Rudd wrote that Fangio made no comment on the V16 BRM: "If the times aren't good enough, you must decide whether the fault lies with the driver or the car. If it's the car, improve it; if it's the driver get a new one." Whether this approach would be successful at Indianapolis in the fifties, I am not able to say.

#16 jo-briggs

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 09:29

Don't forget Stirling Moss drove a rapidly adapted 250F; called the "Eldorado Special"; with, I think, a 3 litre engine and Firestone tyres. It did not have enough power, and anyway, Monza being extremely bumpy, broke a steering arm and retired.

Ecurie Ecosse entered three cars for the so called "Monzapolis" and Jack Fairman led both races, but being a 3.8 Litre sportscar with closed wheels, the tyres, being designed for European road racing not continuous high speed running, rapidly overheated, forcing numerous pit stops. It is a moot point whether, had Fairman the right tyres, he might not have creamed the lot of them!

I seem to recall that the lap speeds were faster than at Indy, as Monza has a parabolic banking, steeper than Indianapolis, allowing drivers to pick a line and the car would run it without needing steering input; the faster you went, the higher up the banking the car ran.

At least, this is my recollection.

Maybe Mr. Clymer had his nose put out of joint by someone involved and took it out on Fangio, these things happen; even had Clymer been inebriated at the time, he would have known the statement was insupportable. Fangio did the sensible thing and walked away from uncompetetive cars, he could, in all conscience, do nothing else. Would Schumacher turn up next year responding to an invitation to drive a Midland or a Super Aguri, and if he declined the invitation, would you accept the assertion that he was not a worthy champion for not doing so?

European racing has always welcomed North American drivers, three of whom have been World Champions; Harry Schell, Masten Gregory, Dan Gurney to name a few.

I seem to recall another American writer referring to those involved in GP as "European White Trash", maybe he wasn't given a Paddock Pass for Watkins Glenn". It is easy to make statements that catch the headlines, just look at Tont Blair.......

#17 David McKinney

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 09:54

Originally posted by jo-briggs
Don't forget Stirling Moss drove a rapidly adapted 250F; called the "Eldorado Special"

Actually a car designed from the ground up for the Monzanapolis race, and having no relationship to a 250F.
But your point remains

#18 Alan Cox

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 10:11

jo-hill, I can only think of two Americans who have been World Champions - who's the third?.......

#19 Vicuna

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 10:11

Originally posted by David McKinney

Actually a car designed from the ground up for the Monzanapolis race, and having no relationship to a 250F.


What, none at all!

Not doubting, merely exercising surprise.

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#20 kayemod

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 10:27

Originally posted by Alan Cox
jo-hill, I can only think of two Americans who have been World Champions - who's the third?.......


Only Phil Hill and the blessed Mario.

I think I'm probably in a minority here, I've always regarded 'Grand Prix' as a poor film and one of the worst motor racing films ever made to boot, but could Pete Aron have been the third? I've only ever seen the film once, and gave up about half way through, so don't claim to be too hot on the plot details.

What, you mean it wasn't real ....?

#21 Andretti Fan

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 10:40

He said North American......... which would include a certain canadian.

#22 Roger Clark

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 14:01

Originally posted by jo-briggs
Don't forget Stirling Moss drove a rapidly adapted 250F; called the "Eldorado Special"; with, I think, a 3 litre engine and Firestone tyres. It did not have enough power, and anyway, Monza being extremely bumpy, broke a steering arm and retired.

And not a 3-litre engine. Are you perhaps thinking of the 3.5-litre V12 engined car that Behra drove in 1957? That was much more closely related to the 250F.

#23 kayemod

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 14:24

Originally posted by jo-briggs
Don't forget Stirling Moss drove a rapidly adapted 250F; called the "Eldorado Special"; with, I think, a 3 litre engine and Firestone tyres. It did not have enough power, and anyway, Monza being extremely bumpy, broke a steering arm and retired.


As far as I can recall, the Eldorado Special was pretty much a one-off for Maserati, some similarities with the 250F, but no common parts, mechanically it was closer to a single seat version of the 4.5 litre Maserati sports racer. One thing I do remember though was the engine, which was a 4.2 litre V8 topped off with four twin choke Webers, and running on alcohol. My Father was horrified by the appearance, but in white with 'Eldorado' on the side, I thought it looked fantastic. Children eh? Didn't the car appear at Indianapolis a year or two later, though I don't think it made the race.

#24 jo-briggs

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 15:41

Originally posted by kayemod

My Father was horrified by the appearance, but in white with 'Eldorado' on the side, I thought it looked fantastic. Children eh?


It must have been the thought of all that ice cream!

#25 D-Type

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 23:56

Originally posted by Roger Clark

And not a 3-litre engine. Are you perhaps thinking of the 3.5-litre V12 engined car that Behra drove in 1957? That was much more closely related to the 250F.

Is that correct?
I thought that in 1957 the only European opposition was the 3 Ecurie Ecosse Jaguars. And 1958 saw Ecurie Ecosse with 2 Jaguars plus a Lister, Moss in the Eldorado Maserati, Scuderia Ferrari with a 3 litre Dino and a reworked 1951 375 and harry Schell with another old Ferrari belonging to Luigi Chinatti. But I don't think I've ever read of Jean Behra competing in either race.

As to the original topic, I think that Floyd Clymer is guilty of nothing more than using the English language in the more flamboyant American way which can come across to the British as far more offensive than was intended.

#26 Roger Clark

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 05:46

Originally posted by D-Type

Is that correct?
I thought that in 1957 the only European opposition was the 3 Ecurie Ecosse Jaguars. And 1958 saw Ecurie Ecosse with 2 Jaguars plus a Lister, Moss in the Eldorado Maserati, Scuderia Ferrari with a 3 litre Dino and a reworked 1951 375 and harry Schell with another old Ferrari belonging to Luigi Chinatti. But I don't think I've ever read of Jean Behra competing in either race.

Yes, it's correct. It practiced but didn't race.

#27 Graham Gauld

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 12:53

I am going to wade in with support for Floyd Clymer. Back in the early 1950's he was one of the few people writing about motor racing in America who was known in Europe. You may criticise his flamboyant style but his heart was on the ball. As mentioned earlier he came over to Germany very early on and I still have his soft cover book which has a remarkable amount of information and "colour" covering the scene. Perhaps some of it was not 100% accurate but I am sure that not one of us is 100% accurate all the time.
Regarding the whole alleged anti-Fangio bit was, as has been mentioned, around the much vaunted Indy cars versus Grand Prix cars affair at Monza. Clymer was very much in favour of this race going ahead and publicised it a lot. Naturally, he was very disappointed at the seemingly arrogant view taken by the European manufacturers when it came to fielding entries against the Americans.
However David Murray of Ecurie Ecosse saw dollar signs and was only too willing to take part in the event and he knew that the D types would be ahead in the opening laps - where most of the photographs were taken - because his cars had four gears whereas the Indy cars only had two.
As Hugh McCaig and I took over David Murrays archives when we reformed Ecurie Ecosse in 1983 I have read all the correspondence and Clymer was so enthusiastic about David bringing the Jaguars he started a campaign in the United States to raise money and bring Ecurie Ecosse over to Indianapolis to race. He really beat the drum and I think David actually went to see the race and was feted by Floyd and all his friends. Maybe the European manufacturers did not come out of it very well but it certainly put Ecurie Ecosse in the map in America and to the end of his life Clymer was very pro the team.
Indeed someone like David Bull should try and reprint some of the interesting Racing books by Clymer provided he can obtain copyright and the original photographs for despite their writing style they would, I am sure, be of great interest to enthusiasts today.

#28 kayemod

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 12:58

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
.... but his heart was on the ball.


Thanks for some interesting period info Graham, and thanks also for that wonderful mixed metaphor.

#29 Graham Gauld

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 13:09

When it comes to mixing them you have reached the right place ! Better that than the other way round.

#30 Vitesse2

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 13:11

Originally posted by Graham Gauld

Indeed someone like David Bull should try and reprint some of the interesting Racing books by Clymer provided he can obtain copyright and the original photographs for despite their writing style they would, I am sure, be of great interest to enthusiasts today.

Seconded, Graham. It seems like US and Canadian dealers are waking up to the fact that the Euro-centric stuff is quite rare and prices are moving up rapidly. I paid about $10 each for Molter's "German Racing Cars" and Monkhouse's "Motor Racing with MB" a couple of years ago. Both now seem to be in the $30-50 range, climbing up towards the prices asked by UK dealers for them.

David Gavitt and Art Spindler are both currently offering paperback editions of Chula's Seaman biography at prices more appropriate to early post-war hardbacks!

#31 soubriquet

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 14:47

Originally posted by Graham Gauld Clymer was very much in favour of this race going ahead and publicised it a lot. Naturally, he was very disappointed at the seemingly arrogant view taken by the European manufacturers when it came to fielding entries against the Americans.


I must be missing something here. How does the "arrogant view taken by the European manufacturers" justify the opinion "I contend that you are not only a poor sportsman but a phoney champion of the world"?

#32 Collombin

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 15:47

Originally posted by soubriquet


I must be missing something here. How does the "arrogant view taken by the European manufacturers" justify the opinion "I contend that you are not only a poor sportsman but a phoney champion of the world"?


I was thinking that myself, but knowing full well I would be hopelessly out of my depth in a debate with heavyweights such as Graham Gauld and Donald Capps I decided to crawl into the corner and just watch the argument develop from a safe distance :blush:

#33 David M. Kane

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 16:53

E.B.

Wish I had as much sense as you have exhibited...

#34 Graham Gauld

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 16:54

I am sorry for the confusion. My little thread was merely in reference to Floyd Clymer and not to his stated opinion of Fangio in particular. Floyd worked hard to promote the Monza event and it is no surprise he was in a mood to lash out at individual drivers. As for why he chose Fangio I have no idea save that he was the Michael Schumacher of the day - I will now go and wash my mouth out with soap for having mentioned the sainted Michael in the same sentence as the humble and magical Fangio.

#35 kayemod

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 17:45

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
I will now go and wash my mouth out with soap for having mentioned the sainted Michael in the same sentence as the humble and magical Fangio.


Irony eh? That last sentence, I really liked.

#36 Wolf

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 17:51

Thanks guys, very interesting thread. :)

And a very big thanks to Arturo for his excellent post, esp. Maestro's reflections on Indy fraternity- such graceful and considerate attitude is quite refreshing to read in this day and age.

#37 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 18:33

Originally posted by Wolf
Thanks guys, very interesting thread. :)

And a very big thanks to Arturo for his excellent post, esp. Maestro's reflections on Indy fraternity- such graceful and considerate attitude is quite refreshing to read in this day and age.


Hi Wolf :wave:

I guess that Indy racing came too late for Fangio for being really interested. I think he was ready for retirement after the 1955 season, but some developements in Argentina made him to change his mind for 1956/1957. Indy500 was certainly a very different way of racing and, as it was usual, he wanted to be competitive, no matter the car or the kind of race he was facing. Anyway, he always appreciated any fellow drivers, as it seems all of them appreciated him.

In any case, I guess Floud Clymer statements about Fangio were part of a marketing effort. He tried to defy the old Champion but, in the way he did it, he showed a huge ignorance about who Fangio was.

#38 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 19:42

In any case, I guess Floud Clymer statements about Fangio were part of a marketing effort. He tried to defy the old Champion but, in the way he did it, he showed a huge ignorance about who Fangio was.


I think that it is quite the contrary. Clymer knew quite well EXACTLY who was Fangio was and what he was in the motor racing community. However, like Graham, I have mulled and puzzled over this entire incident from time to time and still not exactly sure why he lit into Fangio the way he did. It certainly seems to be connected to the Monza event, but while Fangio was certainly one of those making it clear that he did not intend to compete, he was scarcely the only one to do so. We will never the true reasons for Clymer's remarks, but if they were meant to generate publicity, they certainly did so.

I have often thought that he zeroed in on Fangio because he knew exactly how Fangio would react. At heart, Clymer was a promoter, a wheeler-dealer (what we used to call "entrepreneurs" back then before the MBA crowd took over), someone who knew how to attract attention and, therefore, at in my mind, the value of a little "creative tension." I might be off base thinking along those lines, but if one takes the time to study the "landscape" of the time, it makes some sense.

There is, apparently, a "huge ignorance" as to who Floyd Clymer was and the role he played upon the motor racing stage in the decades following WW2. He was quite a character in age of characters.

PS: At the time I was more than a bit put out by Clymer's remarks. Although I never quite embraced Fangio to the extent that I did Ascari or Moss or Schell or Behra or Hawthorn among the Grand Prix set, I certainly liked the Argentine gent. And, I kept buying Clymer's books, so I couldn't have been all that put out by it.

#39 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 21:53

Fair enough Don :up: Certainly, your explanation about the reasons of this incident or incidents sounds quite reasonable.

I certainly have a huge ignorance about who Floyd Clymer was, except for this incident, which very well could misguided me to interpret his words the wrong way. Thanks for your explanation !!

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#40 Vitesse2

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 23:06

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps

There is, apparently, a "huge ignorance" as to who Floyd Clymer was and the role he played upon the motor racing stage in the decades following WW2. He was quite a character in age of characters.

As mentioned above, Clymer visited Germany in late 1948, as a side trip from his visits to the London Motor Show and Paris Salon, so we're looking at September/October. He drove round Europe in a 1949 model Ford V8 Custom and while in Germany gave two film shows for both the locals and the GIs. He met, among others, "Schorsch" Meier, Hermann Lang, Ernst Henne and Alfred Neubauer at these events, which were at Bebenhausen Castle at Tübingen and formed part of a Motor Sport Show. He then moved on to Wiesbaden where he inspected some of the new German racing cars and even took a ride on a DKW racing bike! Then he went to Untertürkheim to see the rebirth of Mercedes Benz (and toured their museum), to Rüsselsheim to visit Opel and then inspected the new Horex motorcycle works at Bad Homburg.

In October he flew from Frankfurt to Berlin (already "under siege") and gave two more film shows for the US troops, fitting in a trip to AVUS too. He continued to tour Germany, stopping off at Ford in Cologne, and then visited Holland, Belgium and France before finishing up in England.

From pictures in the Molter book, it seems Clymer also visited Italy to see Alfa Romeo and Cisitalia and Switzerland where he called on the Caracciolas.

He did promise a book called "Motoring through Europe with Floyd Clymer", but I don't think it was ever published.

#41 FLB

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 14:47

Clymer's Carrera Panamericana book for sale:

http://www.arteauto....PROD&ProdID=570