14 replies to this topic

[Xrayman]

I have just read the excellent article on the 8W site about the 1958 race of two worlds and there is a link to a picture of a single seater bodied, open wheel version of the D Type Jaguar.....


Does anyone know if this car still exists or of its history after the race?

Could this car turn up at historic events some time, because until today I had never heard of such a beast.



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Martin.

ICQ 53805151

[Dr.DeDion]

The link must be incorrect.The car pictured is a Ferrari, evidently the Ferrari-Chinetti special.The information about this car in the 8W article is a little confused.My guess is that it is a 1951 375 4.5 liter GP car with the rear fuel tank removed and a smaller tank placed low on the left side of the fuselage.

From the one fuzzy picture I've seen of the no.2 Lister-Jag beside this no.16 on the back row of the grid, it seems to have been a rather tall, angular, almost wedge-shaped machine with an offset cockpit.

[Xrayman]

Thankyou Dr DeDion for the reply.I stand corrected on the matter - If you now look at the origional post the link is dead. I have checked back on the 8W site and the lister Bodied link has been removed, so I got it all wrong.

Would you have any pictures of the Lister Jag that you could post? Just to make my origional post worth the effort

Sorry again for the mistake.


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Martin.

ICQ 53805151

[Dr.DeDion]

If I had a scanner, I'd scan'er in the mo-or-ning, I'd scanner in the evenin', all over this la-and.

I'd scanner out Jaguars, I'd scan out Fer-ra-ris, I'd scanner out Lan-cias, Astons and Maseratis, a-all over this la-a-a-and, oo-oo-oooo...

But anyhow it was a really long-range shot of the Lister that I found in the book "Checkered Flag" by Ivan Rendall.You can barely read the number.By the way, I really enjoy reading everything on the 8W pages.I appreciate their efforts and I wasn't trying to highlight their little gaffe.

[Ian McKean]

Not strictly true to call it a Lister-bodied D-Type. More of a monoposto-bodied Lister-Jaguar.

The D-Type Jaguar had an aluminium monocoque body from the engine bulkhead back. The engine and front suspension were carried on a multi-tubular space frame that bolted to the monocoque. Therefore it would not have been possible to attach a single seater body to the D-Type Jaguar without throwing away everthing but the engine. The D-Type had a live back axle, incidentally and it was not at its best on bumpy tracks. The crown wheel and pinion were central so this would have been another problem unless the driver sat very high or was very offset.

The Lister-Jaguar was a sports racing car that had been very successful in sprint events in the UK. Developed from earlier MG and Bristol engined versions, the Jaguar-powered car appeared in late 1956 or 1957 and driven by the amazing Archie Scott Brown had immediately proved very difficult to beat. It had a simple twin tube ladder type chassis, the main tubes being 3" diameter. Unlike the D-Type, it had a de Dion back axle located by twin trailing arms at each side and a sliding pin to provide lateral location. I don't know if they took advantage of this layout on the Monzanapolis car to offset the final drive and use different length half shafts, but it would have been quite easy to do this with the de Dion layout.

So it would have been a relatively simple matter to put a single seater body on a Lister but impossible with a D-Type!

Incidentally the Lister appeared unpainted at Monzanapolis, I think because of lack of time rather than lack of money or the intention to save weight!

The Ecurie Ecosse D-Types had suffered from tyre blowouts at the first Monzanapolis and had been forced to restrict their speed. For the 1958 race they appeared with a large air scoop above the right rear wheel which took air in and over the back tyre and then released it through a panel cut in the tail. I guess Ecurie Ecosse thought that the open-wheeled Lister would not have this problem, but it did not prove much if any quicker that the sports cars. The long-nose D-Type was very aerodynamic.

I am not certain if the Lister survives, but I think it does.

To go back to Archie Scott Brown, he was always the works Lister driver as the marque progressed from JAP to MG to Bristol and finally to the Jaguar engines that enabled them to challenge for race wins. In 1954 he was prevented from taking part in the British Empire Trophy race at Oulton Park because of his disabilities - he was born with only one hand and his legs were also deformed. The following year it gave him great satisfaction to win.

The Lister-Jag was immediately quicker than the D-Type on British circuits due to its de Dion suspension and light weight. It probably would not have touched a D-Type at Le Mans because of the latter's superior aerodynamics and the fact that the live axle was quite adequate on the very smooth Le Mans track. During the 1957 season Archie won 11 out of 14 races in the Lister-Jaguar. The opposition often included the works Aston Martins, sometimes with Stirling Moss at the wheel, so this was quite an achievement. He also drove the F1 Connaught on occasion. In spite of his deformed legs he was as quick away from a Le Mans start as almost anyone. During the 1958 season he had some titanic battles with another driver I much admired, Masten Gregory, driving a similar Lister, as well as Moss, Brookes and Salvadori in the works Astons. It was while battling for the lead with Masten at Spa in 1958 that Archie crashed his Lister at the corner where Dick Seaman had been killed before the war, and he died later in hospital.

For 1959 Lister introduced a more aerodynamic body designed by Frank Costin. However it seemed to offer no advantage on British circuits and by then the Cooper Monaco and Lotus 15 were able to match the larger-engined Listers. I often wonder whether the 1958 body, with its wedge-shaped nose and high tail, had more downforce than the Costin-designed body. Perhaps someone who races these cars today can answer that?

Ian McKean

PS Have just edited this because I checked and found I got the year wrong when Archie Scott Brown was prevented from taking part in the British Empire Trophy race. By the way he came second in the non-championship F1 race at Silverstone in the Connaught in 1956. Amazing. Another quick one-armed driver was (is) David Good - RAC Hill climb champion around about 1961 in a 2.7 litre Cooper Climax.

[This message has been edited by Ian McKean (edited 12-15-1999).]

[Xrayman]

Ian,

Thankyou very much for your very detailed reply, this is the sort of thing I was looking for, the car itself is still an enigma!

BTW a good friend of mine (thank you Roger Valentine) has managed to scan me the Chequered Flag photo of the 1957 Monza start - I am just trying to find a way of post it here on the BB!!!

Keep watching this space for the photo.

Thanks again to all who have hepled me with this fascinating car.



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Martin.

ICQ 53805151

[Xrayman]

Finally, here are the photos.
This is the start of the race, the lister is seen at the back driven by jack Fairman.



and here is a blown up section showing just the lister.



Again thanks to Roger Valentine for the photos taken from Chequered Flag.



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Martin.

ICQ 53805151

[arttidesco]

Is this the monopost Lister Jaguar ?

[David McKinney]

Certainly is

About the time of its revival for historic racing, I'd say

[arttidesco]

Judging by the historic 1980's gold Metro in the back ground that would appear to be a fair assessment

[Glengavel]

Certainly is

About the time of its revival for historic racing, I'd say

It's doing just that according to Classic & Sportscar. Don't have the magazine in front of me at the moment, but it's doing quite well IIRC.

I remember seeing it at Donington in 1983 at a historic race meeting, and wondering what on earth it was. It was unpainted, with an Ecurie Ecosse badge on its flanks. I was absolutely convinced that I'd taken a photograph of it, but a search of my archives (AKA various shoeboxes stuffed in the bottom of a wardrobe) has proved fruitless.

[Ted Walker]

I sugest that you purchase a copy of the Lister book recently published by Paul Skilleter.It contains a lot of shots of the car.

[Ralf Pickel]

The Lister has been owned by a German racer sometime in the 90´s - but nowadays it is quite regularly raced (and owned?) by Rod Jolley.
And probably more successful than it has ever been before in its existence !

[David McKinney]

It was revived circa 1978 by Gordon Chapman and his son Martyn (who occasionally posts here)

Have to confess I'd forgotten Ric Weiland had it, but you're right in saying it's doing at least as well as ever in Rod Jolley's hands nowadays

[Dutchy]

It was, after Ecurie Ecosse sold it, Phil Scragg's hillclimb car in 2 seater form with cycle wings.