34 replies to this topic

[bill patterson]

In the latest edition of Motor Sport in the CanAm feature there is a photograph of the two Works McLarens - one with Wee Jackie's name on it.

Can anyone remind me if he actually raced the M8F? Maybe someone has a photograph with him behind the wheel?

[kayemod]

Teddy Mayer did sign Jackie Stewart to drive alongside Denny Hulme in the 1972 CanAm series,but JS never raced for them. He was diagnosed with a duodenal ulcer shortly before the first round and pulled out altogether, so Pete Revson drove with Denny that year. There may have been an M8F with Jackie's name on it at some promotional event before the 72 race cars were ready, but their car for 1972 was the all new M20, the only M8Fs raced that year were in non-factory privateer hands.

[Duncan Fox]

I agree , it feel sure it would have been a promotional shot only . As Gregg Young took over both M8F's at the end of the season it would have to have been done in the U.S. As the M20 (20-1 the Mathews Collection car) he tested at various tracks in the U.K. had a specially raised footwell to clear his feet and neither of the team F's had such a feature I doubt he would have tested in one, certainly he didnt race in an F. I look forward to seeing the photo.

[kayemod]

Duncan, I'm intrigued by the reference to Jackie Stewart's feet. JS and Denny Hulme are two drivers whose physique I have some fairly intimate knowledge of, having made a few F1 and CanAm seats for them in my youth. Denny was heavily built but around average height, whilst JS was positively miniscule, you could have fitted at least one and a half Jackie Stewarts into a seat made for Denny. Jackie's feet were tiny, and without wanting to cast aspersions of any kind on JS's manliness, if you had no idea who he was, you'd have taken him for a ballet dancer, especially after seeing the way he would almost skip into a room. I never had anything to do with footbox or pedal arrangements, but if Jackie had unusual requirements in either area, I'm sure I would have heard of them, so anything you can add? If JS had any kind of foot problem, surely it was with them being too small rather than too large.

[EDWARD FITZGERALD]

The worldsportscar site has a paddock shot , howing Revsons car with a strip of blue tape covering Stewarts name , so mystery solved .

[kayemod]

Originally posted by EDWARD FITZGERALD
The worldsportscar site has a paddock shot , howing Revsons car with a strip of blue tape covering Stewarts name , so mystery solved .

Not entirely. Without a link, I can't access the pic you refer to, but that would have been 1972, probably the first race at Mosport, and the car would have been an M20, not the M8F as mentioned in the original post. McLarens always left Colnbrook beautifully signwritten, no stick-on decals for them. As Stewart only pulled out days before the 72 series started, the second car would have had his name on the side in dark blue script, as they always did. 1971 CanAm Champ Peter Revson was never sacked, just moved up to F1 at his own request, so the easiest thing for Teddy Mayer to do at such short notice, was to call him back for CanAm duty alongside Denny. In 1972, the McLaren days were ending, and the turbo Porsche 917/10K had arrived. George Follmer was champ that year with exactly double the points that Denny scored as runner-up, so it's unlikely that Jackie Stewart would have fared any better. It was said quite openly at the time that Jackie's ulcer was a convenient get-out, it didn't seem to handicap him much in F1, after he'd seen the Porsche writing on the wall, but to get back to the original query, I doubt very much whether his name ever appeared on an M8F. There doesn't seem to be any record of his having driven one, and certainly not in public.

[bill patterson]

OK maybe I got it wrong - it could be an M20, not an M8F - but the photograph in Motor Sport clearly shows Jackie's name.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by bill patterson
OK maybe I got it wrong - it could be an M20, not an M8F - but the photograph in Motor Sport clearly shows Jackie's name.

And JS himself was many thousands of miles away at the time. He did some pre-season tests with the plain orange M20 prototype at Silverstone & Goodwood in spring 1972, at least one photo exists from Goodwood, but that's the only time he ever drove it.

[bill patterson]

Thanks Kayemod, I'm slightly older but a lot wiser!

[rl1856]

Originally posted by kayemod


so it's unlikely that Jackie Stewart would have fared any better. It was said quite openly at the time that Jackie's ulcer was a convenient get-out, it didn't seem to handicap him much in F1, after he'd seen the Porsche writing on the wall,

JYS's ulcer did cause him to miss a few GP during the year and to cut back on other commitments. His ulcer also started the mental process that led to his decision to retire at the end of the 1973 season. The decision was actually made at the end of the 1972 or early in 1973, but kept quiet.

I have no doubt that JYS would have been quicker than Denny in the M20 and he may even have done a better job of challenging Folmer, but winning the CanAm title would have been a very tall order.

Best,

Ross

[kayemod]

I'll agree with you up to a point, given equal F1 cars, Jackie Stewart would have beaten Denny Hulme more often than not, and you're also right about Jackie's ulcer, later that year it troubled him a lot and caused him to miss F1 races as you say, though he seemed fine in May & June 1972. CanAm was a completely different story from F1 though, in Gp7 cars, you'd have to be either unfeasibly brave or very reckless to bet against Denny, no matter who or what the opposition, he was The Master. I can't back this up, as far as I know no times were ever published, so I've only got hearsay evidence from those days to go on, but I was told that JS couldn't match Denny's testing times with the M20 prototype around Silverstone and Goodwood, so I'm sticking with my 'Porsche writing on the wall' comment. I do have to declare a small degree of bias here. I was involved through my work back then with quite a few of the top drivers, though ironically I wasn't all that much of a racing fan in those days so no hero worship, but without question Denny is my all time favourite, a really lovely man. Although I was never much of a Stewart fan, I met him three or four times, and JS comes a close second, he possessed real charm, almost certainly still does of course. Jackie Stewart's talents are unquestionable, one of the all time F1 greats, but it always irks me slightly that Denny is rarely given the credit I feel he's due. On his day and in the right car like an M8 he was one hell of a driver. I really don't think that Jackie Stewart would have beaten him very often if he'd raced the M20 alongside Denny in the 1972 Can Am.

[JSF]

I would have to agree with that, a late CanAm car is a very physically demanding vehicle to drive compared to an F1 car of the same period, it suited the Bear perfectly IMHO.

[Doug Nye]

I'm not at all a fan of 'what might have been' comparative debates between great drivers but in period I would certainly have put money on Denny giving JYS a run for his money in a CanAm car. Especially a CanAm car built and run by 'his' team... The works M8Fs had a pretty fraught later life didn't they - Revvie's for one being wrapped around a tree at Portland (?) by Dan Hanna. Does anyone recall that incident?

DCN

[MCS]

Given Stewart's attitude towards safety in the late sixties and early seventies, am I alone in being surprised that he actually tested the M20 at Goodwood; especially in light of the terrible tragedy that occurred there two years earlier...?

[kayemod]

Apologies if I seem to be trying to monopolise this thread, but as you might have guessed, Denny Hulme and orange McLarens are two of my favourite topics. MCS makes a good point that might explain what I was told by an McL employee about Jackie Stewart's slowness around Goodwood relative to Denny, possible safety concerns are something that I hadn't considered. Similarly JSF's point about the physical strength needed to get the best from something like an M20, big tyres and no power steering in those days remember, with a lot of aerodynamic download on the front. Denny was very strong indeed, I've seen him bending 6mm L72 aluminium in his bare hands for a bet, no-one else in the workshop could do it. I think it was his father that a young Denny worked with in the sand & gravel business in NZ. He told me that they used to race each other at loading and unloading trucks, just one man and a shovel to each truckload, you'd get pretty strong doing work like that.

[BMMRM8B2]

My recollection of the 1972 CanAm season is not that "the writing was on the wall" in terms of the turbo Porsches. In Mark Donohue's book The Unfair Advantage, Donohue talks about the struggles to develop the 917 as a CanAm car and notes that before the turbo breakthrough, Penske and company thought they would get badly beaten by the McLarens. My recollection is that this final development happened relatively late; I think from Road Atlanta, Donohue sent a message to Penske about the turbo power that would be available. Even then, the superiority of the turbo Porsche was purely in terms of raw horsepower. George Follmer notes this in the September 2006 issue of Motorsport. Indeed, if there had been horsepower/torque parity between the McLarens and Porsches, McLaren woud have had its sixth CanAm championship. I also recall that the oil company sponsorship situation played a role in Stewart's withdrawal from McLaren as a driver (Elf verus Gulf).

[David M. Kane]

If we had a photo of Denny's hands and forearms you could see his raw strength. You can just see him "manhandling" a Can-Am. I agree with Kaymod, Jackie DID almost look like a Ballet dancer.

Alas, we'll never know; but I would have bet on Denny!

[kayemod]

Originally posted by BMMRM8B2
Even then, the superiority of the turbo Porsche was purely in terms of raw horsepower.

Not quite true. They had big turbo lag problems to work around, Follmer spun fairly regularly at first, but Porsche horsepower let them run a lot more downforce than the McLarens, they were faster through the corners from the very first race at Mosport, as well as 10 mph faster down the straights. There's no getting away from this. In those Gp7 cars, Denny was a class act.

[BMMRM8B2]

Not true according to George Follmer. Follmer and I both are referring to the final product and not the developmental stages of the 917/10K. Everyone knows about the lag problem but the initial goal was to get the raw horsepower. Naturally, with the required torque and horsepower met and exceeded, the cornering and straightline speed of the 917/10K would make it faster. But the 917s always suffered from inefficiency and that is why Donohue complained of only 240 mph in the 30KL. Bruce McLaren did 210 mph in the 1969 McLaren M8B with around 630-680 bhp, so Donohue should have gotten to maybe 300 mph in the 30 KL! That means inefficency and most likely these were rooted in aero and weight problems. To me, the M20 was still a better overall car just like Denny was easily the best CanAm driver.

[Stoatspeed]

Originally posted by BMMRM8B2
But the 917s always suffered from inefficiency and that is why Donohue complained of only 240 mph in the 30KL. Bruce McLaren did 210 mph in the 1969 McLaren M8B with around 630-680 bhp, so Donohue should have gotten to maybe 300 mph in the 30 KL!

Perhaps a slight exaggeration there ... assuming all else remained constant, if you were able to run Bruce's M8B with Porsche horsepower (let's say 1100 versus 650) with no other change (same cooling, aero, etc), the most you could hope for would be 270 mph .... still more than 240, but there was a lot more cooling energy to reject on the 917, and that costs serious drag.

To me, the M20 was still a better overall car just like Denny was easily the best CanAm driver.

... but the conclusion is right!

[BMMRM8B2]

Yes, I agree Stroatspeed, and that is a good point about the energy situation with the 917/30KL. I was just exaggerating with the 300 mph, but you got my point. I am not a physicist, but there must have been some inefficiency there with the turbo Porsches. I always felt funny about the turbo Porsche success. I like the power of the 917 motor but the spaceframe, the weight, and the aero/energy problems all made the 917 car seem less than satisfactory. Everyone in the States seems to worship these cars and Mark Donohue's CanAm achievements (see the latest DVD "Legends of CanAm") but I am not as enthusiastic. Of course, I confess to total love of the Team McLaren cars and of Bruce McLaren and Denny Hulme!

[JSF]

Drag goes up at the square of speed, to achieve significantly higher speeds takes a huge amount more horsepower. What a turbo engine is extremely good at is producing torque, and it's torque that accelerates the car, it would most likely have been the mid range punch of Porshe turbo that really won the races rather than it's headline power output. A good example of this was the recent Le Mans winning Audi TDi, power was similar to the oposition, but torque was almost double.

[BMMRM8B2]

Thanks very much, JSF. I thought there might be an exponent in there somewhere! What you are saying makes sense also given the nature of the CanAm circuits at the time (1966-1974). Top end speed was not really the way to win the CanAm nor was total horsepower. I recall the 1970 Ti22 Autocoast car and 1969 Andretti McLaren M6B Ford having lots of topend power and high straightline speed but it really did them no good in terms of laptimes or race wins.

[Vincenzo Lancia]

Can't help feeling that the "ballet-dancer but no raw strength" associations in this thread with JYS's abilities behind the wheel is a bit off. He's driven E-types, P3/4's, overweight as well as "underweight Brm's with succes, he's won a gp in a March (overweight too?) that wouldn't be able to win a gp... Jackie Stewart is in my eyse a true "fast in no matter what-driver". Besides - he was SMOOTH - I can't remember anyone saying that about Denny Hulme - in that respect Denny and Jackie were antipodes (term/spelling?) were'nt they? But why should'nt smooth be fast in can am?

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Stoatspeed


Perhaps a slight exaggeration there ... assuming all else remained constant, if you were able to run Bruce's M8B with Porsche horsepower (let's say 1100 versus 650) with no other change (same cooling, aero, etc), the most you could hope for would be 270 mph .... still more than 240, but there was a lot more cooling energy to reject on the 917, and that costs serious drag.

Maximum speed varies with the cube root of engine power, assuming that aerodynamic drag remains the same, so an 1100bhp M20 would have achieved 19% more than one with 650 bhp. That is 285 mph if 240 mph is correct.

Regarding Jackie Stewart in Can-Am, wasn't he fairly competitive in the 1971 Lola?

[jo-briggs]

Denny Hulme was one of those driver who drove better and better as he moved up the power ladder, I always felt he was at his best in those monstrous CanAm cars.

Not being morbid, but - what a great way to die. Coming down Mt. Panorama during the Bathurst 1000 and just rolling to a stop at the Final Chequered Flag!

Damon Hill was another - he was OK in Formula Ford, pretty good in F3, a race winner in F3000, and a World Champion in Formula One. Had he stuck with Motorcycles, who knows, he might have done a Surtees - I seem to recall that he won 5 M/C races in one day at Brands Hatch.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by jo-briggs
Denny Hulme was one of those driver who drove better and better as he moved up the power ladder, I always felt he was at his best in those monstrous CanAm cars.

True of course, but power isn't everything, Denny won his WDC in the beautifully balanced, but fairly modestly powered Brabham BT20 & BT24. He had a good F2 & F3 record as well, so he was good at both ends of the scale. I can't recall Denny being particularly noted for smoothness in the way that Jackie Stewart was, but he almost looked about as smooth as most of the other drivers to me, and he wasn't hard on a car.

Also, although almost everyone's first reaction on meeting Jackie Stewart for the first time was to remark on his small stature, I can't remember that it was ever a handicap to him. He drove some big and heavy cars and they never seemed to cause him too many problems. He probably achieved more with the 1971 Lola T260 than most others would have done. The car's main characteristic was understeer, most changes made throughout the season were atempts to improve front end bite and turn in, so the car would have been heavy to drive.

[David M. Kane]

Has anyone here driven a BT-18, BT-21 AND a McLaren Can-Am. I haven't, but we're talking a BIG difference. I've met Jackie Stewart many times, he's NOT that small.

What would Denny been like in a Porsche? Jody said it was like being on roller skates and having a rocket pack on your back! Nothing against Mark Donahue, but I fancy Denny...

[BMMRM8B2]

If no one minds me saying, according to Jackie, Denny had a small posterior. However, at least in driver performance, Jackie was never small. That Lola T-260 he drove in the 71 CanAm was a highly unbalanced car and only a driver of Jackie's ability could have ever kept it on the road. He almost used the old opposite lock technique. In some races, Denny just sat back and watched Jackie working his rear off to keep the car in front. However, Denny correctly estimated that no one could this for that long, so I think his technique was to not try to outmuscle past Stewart but just wait until the inevitable problem. The McLaren M8F was a much better car and it improved as the season went along. Denny remarked that the Goodyears of the day better suited the McLaren and as many of you know, the M8F got aero tweaks in the nose to improve its front grip or stability. Aside from Denny's 3rd place at Laguna Seca, the later part of the season showed that the M8F was the better car and Jackie acknowledged this in a way by his surprise defection to McLaren. As Roger Clark has noted here, a McLaren M20 with power/reliability on a par with the 917-30KL would have been a championship winner and Jackie and Denny would have been great.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

BMMRM8B2:

What you say about the lack of reliability being an issue with the T260 and Denny waiting for the breakdown is largely true to my recollection.

I attended the Mosport go in 1971 and JYS jumped into an immediate and considerable lead. It was all very exciting. McLaren's halcion days over? No...the Lola lunched its gearbox.

From a report read later, I recall Denny saying that he smelled hypoid/gear lube that only could have come from the Lola so just cruised knowing Stewart's days...er, minutes...were numbered.

[mctshirt]

Denny Hulme's thoughts on successful CanAm driving:

'Bruce was quicker than me in CanAm,' says Denny, 'and I sort of knew he was going to be quicker as well. He would set his car up the way he wanted it and he was very smooth. He liked CanAm racing. It was his one big thing and it made a world of difference. He was the hardest guy to beat in a CanAm car and yet he could put in the same amount of effort into a Grand Prix car and get nothing like the same results. I think one of the reasons for this was that he was so smooth. If you throw a CanAm car around you lose time, whereas the only way to get a Grand Prix car to go quick is to start hurling it round and really get it set up for fast corners. I don't think Bruce liked doing this somehow'.
Eoin Young/Bruce McLaren; The Man And His Racing Team

[bill patterson]

Referring back to post no.17 it seems more likely that the conflict of fuel contracts (Elf vs. Gulf) would have been the main stumbling block rather than JYS being frightened off by The Bear or the 917/30 steamroller

[bill patterson]

Sorry, I meant post no.16

[George Cunningham]

Originally posted by kayemod

... that would have been 1972, probably the first race at Mosport, and the car would have been an M20, not the M8F as mentioned in the original post. McLarens always left Colnbrook beautifully signwritten, no stick-on decals for them. As Stewart only pulled out days before the 72 series started, the second car would have had his name on the side in dark blue script, as they always did.

I was at the Mosport race and I recall seeing Stewart's name on one of the McLaren cars in the pits.

[Glengavel]

Originally posted by Vincenzo Lancia
Can't help feeling that the "ballet-dancer but no raw strength" associations in this thread with JYS's abilities behind the wheel is a bit off. He's driven E-types, P3/4's, overweight as well as "underweight Brm's with succes, he's won a gp in a March (overweight too?) that wouldn't be able to win a gp... Jackie Stewart is in my eyse a true "fast in no matter what-driver". Besides - he was SMOOTH - I can't remember anyone saying that about Denny Hulme - in that respect Denny and Jackie were antipodes (term/spelling?) were'nt they? But why should'nt smooth be fast in can am?

I have a vague memory of a photograph of Jackie in the Chaparral 2J fan car, and a quick search reveals he qualified the 2J 3rd on the grid in its debut race and set fastest lap; brake problems put paid to his chances. That seems to have been his only race in it.