37 replies to this topic

[frogeye59]

Well actually a number of Scottish Questions.;)

Being a Yorkshireman, like Innes Ireland, who would qualify to compete under the Saltire by parentage I'd like to pose the following questions :-

There were two scottish teams which wrote themselves into the History Books - Ecurie Ecosse for their giant killing Le Mans victories among many other exploits, and the Border Reivers with whom Jim Clark made his first forays into motor sport.

Do either organisation still exist in any form ?

Did they grow from Car Club activity or were they due to the patronage of one or two rich individuals ?

Were the Reivers responsible for JC only among top flight drivers ?

Over the years there has been a knot of top flight race and rally drivers from Southern Scotland, a relatively small geographical area of the world...what are the special circumstances if any that account for this ?

(By my reckoning the South of Scotland has produced, at least, the Stewart Brothers, 3 McRae's, Clark, Coulthard, Aitken Walker, Scott-Brown, Mc Nish, Cleland (?) and I'm sure TNFers will be able to add to this list easily.)

I'd be interested in history, photo's, anecdote and comment .

Many thanks, in anticipation.

David

[Mistron]

David Leslie is also from Dumfries - same as McNish and close to Coulthard.

Unfortunately, I couldn't hear current (since '80's) Patron of EE, Hugh McCaigs answer to the question of the future for the team when he was asked at Knockhill the other week.

I'm sure Graham Gould can give a fuller answer to this and the rest of your question that anyone - after all, he wrote the book(s)!

[RS2000]

Let's first quickly add Andrew Cowan in there. Has anywhere so relatively unpopulated produced a Clark, Cowan and Aitken from within a few miles?

Maybe we could also debate EE's giant killing at Le Mans. The giants (works Jaguars) collectively shot themselves in the foot one year and EE effectively were the works Jaguars the next year?

I still choke at hearing Roy Salvadori imply (in the "Cobra/Ferrari Wars" programme shown on TV) that he and Shelby went to Le Mans in 59 as some sort of "underdogs". I may have been very young then but I could read the previews and I recall them as virtually favourites (with the Moss car out to break the Ferraris).

[KJJ]

Let's remember that Clark was born and spent his early childhood in the Kingdom of Fife. The Stewart's were from Dumbarton weren't they, north of Glasgow, Central Scotland.

[macoran]

Johnny D ?

[subh]

Would you count Anthony Reid or Dario Franchitti?

[LB]

Dario is from the Central belt. Bathgate iirc, Somewhere between Glasgow and Edinburgh. As for why so many drivers come from the South of Scotland, theres a pretty simple answer, the roads they drive on are pretty challenging.

[subh]

I don’t know too much about the geography, but Scotland in general has surely produced some excellent motorcycle racers. I have to, of course, draw your attention to Steve Hislop, from Hawick. As well as the GB 250 title and two Superbike crowns, he will not be forgotten as an eleven-time TT winner. And not forgetting when he beat Valentino Rossi’s Donington MotoGP pole time on a production-based Ducati...

[Bjorn Kjer]

Not wanting to kill this thread , I had some qs on "who was?" ending up with the ( I think)very good book "Scottish Motor Racing And Drivers" by Graham Gauld. I have under "A place to say" discrebed the book.
Regards Bjørn Kjer

[dbltop]

Cleland is from the Borders town of Galashiels, I think.

[Mark A]

Originally posted by dbltop
Cleland is from the Borders town of Galashiels, I think.

Almost, he's from Peebles.

Robbie Head is also from the lowlands.

[Coogar]

And.....Tom Walkinshaw ? A pretty useful pilot as I recall.........

[Graham Gauld]

Oh Mi Gawd where do we start :

Quick rundown on the points from the original thread.

Ecurie Ecosse still alive and well in the hands of Hugh McCaig. The team still enters for Historic Events in the Group C Championship with two Ecosse C2 cars entered by Hugh's son Alasdair McCaig and his friend Andrew Smith who owns the other one. The third Ecosse C 2 car is now also back in Scotland with Barry Wood.
In addition Hugh and I run a small private Tour for a few friends in nice cars usually in Italy.

Border Reivers:
Originally formed by Alec Calder and Jock McBain with cars like Cooper 500 and later Cooper-Bristol. Team lapsed then was reformed by McBain and Ian Scott Watson when Jim Clark came on the scene and they purchased the ex-Murkett Brothers Jaguar D type. This continued into the Ingliston era when Border Reivers entered Douglas Niven - Jim Clark's cousin - in the special saloon classes and Douglas was Scottish Champion.

Reference John Cleland he was originally from Lanarkshire where his father Bill ran a small garage business. Later he was a leading light in Dealer Team Vauxhall.

Thank you Bjorn for mentioning the Book. Most people would be surprised on reading it just how many Scots drivers have featured in International racing over the years. To add to those already mentioned how about Le Mans winners Glen Kidston (Bentley) and Lord Selsden ( Ferrari with Chinetti 1949) who were both from Scottish shipping families based in Glasgow.

Ron Flockhart from Edinburgh. Ian Stewart from Edinburgh/Crieff, Peter Dumbreck, and in the latest era Susie Stoddart ( DTM Mercedes), European F3 Championship leader Paul di Resta from Bathgate and, I think, nephew of the Franchitti brothers Dario and Marino, Gordon Shedden in BTCC, etc.

Hope this helps but to read the full story check out my web site www.smrh.co.uk Plug

Graham Gauld

[Mark A]

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
European F3 Championship leader Paul di Resta from Bathgate and, I think, nephew of the Franchitti brothers Dario and Marino, Gordon Shedden in BTCC, etc.

Hope this helps but to read the full story check out my web site www.smrh.co.uk Plug

Graham Gauld

Graham,

I think Paul di Resta is a cousin, as Louis di Resta (Pauls dad) used to race Karts at the same time as Dario and IIRC as it's quite a while now Louis was Darios uncle.

Those were good days of karting in Scotland, at Larkhall we had Allan McNish, David Coulthard, Dario Franchitti all racing there at the same time. In fact I remember the Ecurie Ecosse truck (huge artic) turning up with Allan on the way back from a World or European round so Allan could do the local club meet.

[Graham Gauld]

One should really read ones own book before replying. You are right, they are cousins. Big Louie also raced in Formula Ford and was very quick. Also there was George Franchitti, Dario and Marino's dad who was also pretty handy with a Formula Ford.

[D-Type]

Can anyone confirm wheher Dario Resta had a Scottish mother?

He had British nationality although he was born in Italy and has an Italian name . This suggests an Italian father and a British mother. I know he came to Britain at a young age suggesting his mother was widowed. I have seen claims somewhere that his mother was Scottish.

At one time someone had made a Wikipedia entry that obviously mixed up Dario Franchitti, Paul di Resta and Dario Resta. In typical internet fashion this was picked up withut question by several other sites.

[Graham Gauld]

I do not think Dario Resta had a Scottish mother.
A book that has been plugged already says that Dario Resta was born in Italy in 1884 and was brought to London by his parents when he was just two years of age. He raced at the first Brooklands event but then retired from racing. T.C.Pullinger who became manager of the Scottish make Arrol-Johnston persuaded Resta out of retirement to race one of three Arrol-Johnstons in the 1911 Coupe de L'Auto in Boulogne. All three cars also carried the Lion Rampant symbol of Scotland on the sides - strictly illegal as the lion rampart is only supposed to be used by royalty in Scotland. A year later Arrol-Johnston again raced in the Coupe de L'Auto this time at Dieppe and created a sensation by turning up with the cars painted in Gordon tartan ! Resta later went on to win Indianapolis and was the last European to win the race until Jim Clark in 1965.

[D-Type]

Thanks Graham.

I must buy a copy of your book!

As to the lion rampant- I have to agree with the football fans that the lion rampant is a nicer flag to wave than the saltire. I believe the logic goes "We're all subjects of the queen of Scotland so why can't we fight under her standard"

[Bjorn Kjer]

Keep on Graham ! Regards Bjørn

[Geoff E]

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
I do not think Dario Resta had a Scottish mother.
A book that has been plugged already says that Dario Resta was born in Italy in 1884 and was brought to London by his parents when he was just two years of age.

Sounds about right-

The 1901 census has in St James
Enrico RESTA 42 Photographer, Italy
Adelina 42 Italy
Linda 19 Italy
Dario 18 Italy
Olga 12 W London

and 1891 in Paddington
Enrico RESTA 32 Photographer
Adelina 34
Linda 9
Dario 8
Olga 1 London

in Fulham (1891)
Nicola RESTA 29 Photographer, Italy Fasuza?

[kevthedrummer]

Another great racer from Hawick was Jimmie Guthrie. I compiled a short piece about him for the Motorsport Memorial site:

http://www.motorspor...hp?db=ms&n=2114

I couldn't decide whether to put this here or in the motorcycle nostalgia thread. There's a permanent exhibition about Jimmie in Hawick museum, well worth a visit if you're in the area (and it's free!)

[Glengavel]

Originally posted by frogeye59
Well actually a number of Scottish Questions.;)


(By my reckoning the South of Scotland has produced, at least, the Stewart Brothers, 3 McRae's, Clark, Coulthard, Aitken Walker, Scott-Brown, Mc Nish, Cleland (?) and I'm sure TNFers will be able to add to this list easily.)

I'd be interested in history, photo's, anecdote and comment .

Many thanks, in anticipation.

David

Some names I haven't seen yet:

Ninian Sanderson
Jim Crawford
Niall Mackenzie
Richard Noble (! - ISTR reading that he was born in Scotland)
Malcolm Campbell?

There's a Wikipedia page for Scottish racing drivers - looks like it could do with being updated!

http://en.wikipedia....racecar_drivers

[D-Type]

St Andrew's day greetings to the subjects of this thread.

[roadmap]

I owned a Healey Silverstone that was campaigned by an Edinburgh dentist called Waugh,along with Ian Stewart they raced also XK Jags, they then went to ecurrie to drive C types. the dentist for some reason doesnt appear in any of the history that I could find. . I had a letter that came along with the Healeys paperwork from the owner of a garage in edinburgh called garage Browns I think that mentioned them both going to the Ecosse team.

[Graham Gauld]

Geoff Waugh was indeed a dentist and raced and rallied a Healey Silverstone. Ian Stewart also ran a Healey Silverstone at the beginning as did Jimmy Stewart, Jackie's older brother. Geoff later became Chairman of Scottish Motor Racing Club and died quite young. The Brown garage mentioned was Eastern Motor Company owned by John Brown who also raced various cars including a Riley Special. He then bought one of the three original HWM's which could race as sports cars or F2 cars which he sold to Ray Fielding from Forres. I spotted the Healey Silverstone referred to at Goodwood two or three years ago as I recognised the Edinburgh registration number and assume the writer of the thread is the same owner.

[Peter Darley]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RS2000
[B]Let's first quickly add Andrew Cowan in there. Has anywhere so relatively unpopulated produced a Clark, Cowan and Aitken from within a few miles?


Although most people will link Andrew Cowan with Rallying, let us not forget he had a single seater drive in F3 with Ron Harris / Team Lotus.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
Geoff Waugh was indeed a dentist and raced and rallied a Healey Silverstone. Ian Stewart also ran a Healey Silverstone at the beginning as did Jimmy Stewart, Jackie's older brother. Geoff later became Chairman of Scottish Motor Racing Club and died quite young. The Brown garage mentioned was Eastern Motor Company owned by John Brown who also raced various cars including a Riley Special. He then bought one of the three original HWM's which could race as sports cars or F2 cars which he sold to Ray Fielding from Forres. I spotted the Healey Silverstone referred to at Goodwood two or three years ago as I recognised the Edinburgh registration number and assume the writer of the thread is the same owner.

But did Waugh race an XK120, and later Ecosse C-types?

[subh]

We’ve had Hislop and Mackenzie, but let me add Brian Morrison, Jim Moodie, Iain MacPherson, John Crawford, Ian Simpson and Iain Duffus. Where are the Scots in Superbikes now?

[rdmotorsport]

May I add Jim Crawford and perhaps David Duffield?

[Ian Stewart]

Originally posted by frogeye59
Did they grow from Car Club activity or were they due to the patronage of one or two rich individuals ?

Neither.

EE and the Border Reivers were really the product of enthusiasm on the part of several individuals, some with motor trade connections, and in the case of EE the absolute determination of David Murray was the major factor.

Graham will answer this properly, but I think the only significant "patronage" in either team came from a wealthy individual who provided the EE Formula 2 cars.

Originally posted by David McKinney
But did Waugh race an XK120, and later Ecosse C-types?

Geoff certainly owned an XK120, but whether or not he raced it I simply don't know (Graham?). He wasn't involved in EE, and I very much doubt if he ever drive a C-Type.

[BorderReiver]

Originally posted by frogeye59

Over the years there has been a knot of top flight race and rally drivers from Southern Scotland, a relatively small geographical area of the world...what are the special circumstances if any that account for this ?

Speaking as a racing driver from the Scottish Borders (I demand to be put on the lists, does trashing a Vee at Mallory count for nothing these days?;)) I think there are several factors which lead to the region producing more than its fair share of drivers.

As LB said, the general standard of road in the South of Scotland is something approaching driving Nirvana. The run between Lockerbie and Dumfries for example, which I used to do every day before moving to Glasgow is something akin to classic Spa, but straightened out. It is by no means alone, the Borders are rammed full of fast, flowing, challenging roads that throw literally every sort of conceivable corner at you.

At certain times of the day there is very little traffic, the nearest Speed Camera is in England, and the Police (who are few in numbers) have one of the most geographically challenging areas of the country to patrol.

The result is (and I'm not condoning this), a carte-blanche to do whatever the hell you like.

It's more than that however. There is, what I can only describe as, "a culture of speed" in the region. Borderer's tend to pride themselves on how well they handle their vehicles. There's a strange sort of ambience where everyone is complicit in making the area their own private race circuit. It is, I think, mainly due to the fact that the area's roads are so rewarding to drive that as soon as you start you fall in love with it. That, naturally, spills over into official competition.

Do you know what the number on complaint about Tourists in the Borders is? This is entirely true. It's not how they come and mess up the environment, or how they create a seasonal economy that detracts in part from the other industries in the area . . . . no . . . . it's that they all drive far too slowly. There's nothing worse than leaving your village and finding yourself stuck behind someone from Surrey who's come to look at the view and doesn't know what his right foot is for.

Then again, the region suffers from some of the worst Road Accident statistics in Europe. It's a land of the quick and the dead.

The problem (is it a problem?) is that this culture becomes self perpetuating after a while. My father drove quickly, my brother drive's quickly, I'm going to drive quickly. I know the the road between Hawick and Kelso, or Dumfries and Castle Douglas like the back of my hand, I know hardly anyone's going to be on it at 5 in the morning, I'm going to drop the hammer.

It's just something endemic in the culture of the region, and that collective love of speed has spawned a lot of racing drivers.

[Graham Gauld]

David and Ian

Geoff did do the odd sprint in his XK120 and I think he competed in one Turnberry meeting with it. The rest were all local club rallies. The only other club driver at that time that I know was tested in a C type Jaguar was MG stalwart Micky Gillespie but he never raced one for the team.

Reference the patronage of Ecurie Ecosse . Much of the finance for the team came from Major Thompson who was Chairman of the Ben Shipping Line. He bought the Cooper Bristol, the Connaught and I think helped with the purchase of the D-types which is why the 1956 Le Mans winning car reverted to his ownership when Ecurie Ecosse were finished with it. It stayed in his hands until 1970 when the Major put all of his cars up for sale to aid the Royal National Lifeboat Society. The D type was sold to the Hon Michael Nairn who paid the astonishing sum of £10,000 for it. There were at least half a dozen serious buyers at the Auction at Gleneagles hotel including Bill Allen who had been sent up to buy the car for Nigel Moores but everyone was astonished when it sold for £10,000. Nairn kept the car for another twenty years until it was sold for a record £1.3 million. It is probably the most original D type around.
Major Thompson then financed the building of the Ecosse-Imp single seaters but it was a condition of his gifts that under no circumstances should his generosity be given out or published. Once Major Thompson died the family gave me permission to publish the long biography of him in my book Ecurie Ecosse.

As Ian says Border Reivers had no fairy godfather and the money for the team was put together by the drivers, Jock McBain, and later Ian Scott Watson.

[roadmap]

I sold the Healey to a chap in Italy as I owned two of them and although Mr Waughs car was very original and good for rallies, it wasnt any use on the track we didnt have it at Goodwood, so it was probably one of the others there were three Healeys registered with Edinburgh numbers and the entered the tour of Ireland in 1950/51 ? again I cannot quite remember the year but I had some lovely photos of the event that went with the Healey. I have put a link to the car below

http://www.roadmap.c.....02004 090.htm

[Graham Gauld]

When I said at Goodwood I did not mean it was racing. I saw it in the public car park and spoke to the then owner. I am sure it was the car photographed.

[roadmap]

Sorry Graham it wasnt me. I know the other car is in Surrey. If I remember right the reg is HSC401 and the chap I bought the car from never had the car out of Cheshire in twenty five years.

[Paul Parker]

I remember seeing Eric Liddell racing a GT40 in 1967/68, both his own and other people's cars from time to time. He was a pretty fair wheelman as I recall.

Wasn't he Scottish and what became of him?

[Graham Gauld]

Yes Paul, Eric is very much Scottish and his son Robin Liddell is currently doing well in the USA in the American Le Mans Series.
Eric started out as a speedway rider - I used to report on him when I was speedway correspondent of the Edinburgh Evening Dispatch back in 1952 !! He then bought a Cooper 500 followed by various cars including one of the two Emeryson Formula 1 cars which he brought to Charterhall for his first race but in practice the car caught fire and was burned out. He later had a Lola FJ and then Nicol Cuthbert bough the GT40 that gave Eric the opening into big International GT racing and he was great pal of Paul Hawkins. Today Eric occasionally comes down to Silverstone for the Classic events and is in great form.

[Paul Parker]

Thank you Graham as ever.