89 replies to this topic

[SphereTL1000S]

Zonta is of course a very good driver, but these times goes to show (once more) that an F1 is the best car on a tricky circuit like Laguna Seca. F1 should go to track like this, not Indyanapolis.

He didn't even had to put a qualifying tyre...


ZONTA SETS NEW TRACK RECORD AT MAZDA RACEWAY LAGUNA SECA
Fast Lap Comes On Opening Day Of Rolex Monterey Historic Automobile Races Presented by Toyota

Monterey, Calif. (August 18, 2006) – After one installation lap today on the 11-turn, 2.238 mile Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca, Panasonic Toyota F1 driver Ricardo Zonta easily set a new track record on his second flying lap with at 1:07:587 at119.206 mph. This time and speed edges the previous record of 1:07.722 set by Helio Castroneves at the CART Honda Grand Prix of Monterey in 2000. Castroneves’ speed was 118.969.

“The team made some adjustments after our test laps yesterday that helped the car run smoother on the track today and I had a feeling the car could go much quicker than yesterday,” said Zonta after the session ended early in the third lap with an electrical short. “We had used tires on today and planned to change to new slicks in the second session, but we never got the chance. I am looking forward to new, slick tires tomorrow.”

The plan for today called for one installation lap, three flying laps, a tire change to new tires, then a final three flying laps. On Saturday, the car will be making flying laps at 12:45 and 3:40 p.m. and on Sunday at 12:35 and 3:25 p.m.

Zonta last drove at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca in 1998 when he won the FIA GT Championships behind the wheel of a Mercedes.

.[/url]


http://www.laguna-se...ndex.cfm?ID=256
# # #

[De Weberis]

As expected.
A F1 is lighter and has more downforce than a FART... ehrrr... I mean CART.

[Imperial]

And this proves what exactly?

Someone drove a superior car around Laguna and "broke" the record. It's like comparing a Moto GP to WTCC - i.e. it means nothing.

[De Weberis]

Originally posted by Imperial
And this proves what exactly?

Someone drove a superior car around Laguna and "broke" the record. It's like comparing a Moto GP to WTCC - i.e. it means nothing.

Proves nothing, as that was not the intent.
It's just a promotional/maketing initiative of Toyota in the Monterey Festival, for fans.
Certainly its costs were far lower than the Honda Boneville one.

What's the rumpus?

[SphereTL1000S]

Originally posted by Imperial
And this proves what exactly?

Someone drove a superior car around Laguna and "broke" the record. It's like comparing a Moto GP to WTCC - i.e. it means nothing.

If I'm not mistaken, Ferrari tried to broke that record in 2003 and couldn't by two seconds. Bertolini was the driver, I guess. Maybe if it were not for Zonta, Toyota perhaps couldn't make it. And the record was broken by a few tenths, in Montreal, were Champ cars and F1 both run, the difference is in a couple of SECONDS. I think that is relevant, why not?

It is not that easy.

[canon1753]

When was the last time CART ran Laguna? Its been a few years....

But, if F1 ran a race at Laguna, they still would be quicker than CART.

[Programmer]

This just shows that F1 cars are really, really fast, around almost any paved circuit. On many tracks, they are the fastest racing cars ever built. Even on courses that don't play to their strengths (no long straights and no high-speed corners), they are still crazy fast. I love reading about and watching these cars do their thing, and I suspect that the engineers, mechanics, and driver behind it all are pretty excited at setting a new outright track record

But I can't help but wonder how much faster a Renault, Mclaren, or Ferrari might be...

[Imperial]

How can they even claim this as a fair track record though, given that Laguna is not 100% the same as when CART set the record. The corkscrew is different now for a kick off. All these things add up to different track times before you even bring in the matter of a different car racing on the circuit.

It's very nice of Toyota to do the demo run, definitely, but it's one of those things where they set out with no objectives other than to give the fans a good time, but then the track record is "broken" (even though the circuit isn't entirely the same now) and a big deal is made out of it.

SphereTL1000S also made a point that Ricardo wasn't even on a qualifying tyre. He's in an F1 car so it really should make little difference VS a CART time. F1 should easily match or beat CART times on any road/street circuit.

I don't know about the guy in the Ferrari, but given that I've never heard his name before I can only assume that he wasn't up to it. ?

[baddog]

Originally posted by Imperial
How can they even claim this as a fair track record though, given that Laguna is not 100% the same as when CART set the record. The corkscrew is different now for a kick off. All these things add up to different track times before you even bring in the matter of a different car racing on the circuit.

It's very nice of Toyota to do the demo run, definitely, but it's one of those things where they set out with no objectives other than to give the fans a good time, but then the track record is "broken" (even though the circuit isn't entirely the same now) and a big deal is made out of it.

SphereTL1000S also made a point that Ricardo wasn't even on a qualifying tyre. He's in an F1 car so it really should make little difference VS a CART time. F1 should easily match or beat CART times on any road/street circuit.

I don't know about the guy in the Ferrari, but given that I've never heard his name before I can only assume that he wasn't up to it. ?

Thats fine, but there was a fair bit of nonsense here about the fact an F1 car previously DIDNT break the cart record.. now its turnabout one should expect some comments.. and it does reinforce just how much faster F1 cars are than any other series.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Imperial
SphereTL1000S also made a point that Ricardo wasn't even on a qualifying tyre. He's in an F1 car so it really should make little difference VS a CART time. F1 should easily match or beat CART times on any road/street circuit.

"Qualifying tyre" ???

[Spunout]

I think he meant Zonta was on used tyres?

[Dudley]

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S
Zonta is of course a very good driver, but these times goes to show (once more) that an F1 is the best car on a tricky circuit like Laguna Seca. F1 should go to track like this, not Indyanapolis.

I don't know why this keeps coming up.

Laguna is a great circuit.

In F1 cars though it would be much worse than Monaco.

Plus it's too short to qualify as an F1 track.

[Imperial]

Originally posted by kayemod


"Qualifying tyre" ???

Well, that wasn't exactly my quote, SphereTL1000S mentioned qualifying tyres.

I know what SphereTL1000S means, even though in 2006 there isn't strictly such a thing in F1.

You do know what they mean don't you, i.e. basically just a very soft compound?

[Imperial]

Originally posted by Dudley


I don't know why this keeps coming up.

Laguna is a great circuit.

In F1 cars though it would be much worse than Monaco.

Plus it's too short to qualify as an F1 track.

Agreed.

CART races at Laguna always seemed to have more promise to them than they actually delivered.

MOTO GP at Laguna is simply fantastic, meanwhile an F1 race would be utterly pointless. Other than the front "straight" the only other overtaking opportunities are into the extremely tight corners, which in an F1 car usually equals contact being made which = elimination of both cars, so all in all it's a pointless track for F1 to race at. Which is why it doesn't I guess !!

[jokuvaan]

"my dad's car is better than your dad's car!!"

[De Weberis]

I can breake the record in Gran Turismo 4, would you accept it?

If the target was breaking the record, they would run on winter, with controlled conditions.
The way the runs were scheduled, it is about showing the public a the F1 car capabilities.

Indianapolis is more to the East Coast, the West Coast also deserves F1.
Racing is not a rapper rivalry.

[De Weberis]

Originally posted by Programmer
This just shows that F1 cars are really, really fast, around almost any paved circuit. On many tracks, they are the fastest racing cars ever built. Even on courses that don't play to their strengths (no long straights and no high-speed corners), they are still crazy fast. I love reading about and watching these cars do their thing, and I suspect that the engineers, mechanics, and driver behind it all are pretty excited at setting a new outright track record

But I can't help but wonder how much faster a Renault, Mclaren, or Ferrari might be...

Yes, but don't forget the streamline bodies os the Auto Union and the Mercedes Silver Arrows.
They already had fantastic performances a long time ago.
More closelly in timeline, the Porsches 917.
Those open wheels are really like parachutes in high speed.
The Audi R10 just looks like a F1 with wheel covers.

[Andy Donovan]

Originally posted by Dudley
I don't know why this keeps coming up.

Laguna is a great circuit.

In F1 cars though it would be much worse than Monaco.

Plus it's too short to qualify as an F1 track.

Maybe we could get Tilke to lengthen it with an extra section?
No, we really couldn't

[Lantern]

Originally posted by Andy Donovan


Maybe we could get Tilke to lengthen it with an extra section?
No, we really couldn't

Or we could just go to Road America, update the facilities and CALL it Laguna Seca since the sexy name is what we're looking for.;)

But, it'll never happen due to the lack of a big city to lick Bernies ass.

[Dudley]

Yes, that's just what we need, Schumacher driving into a deer.

[carbonfibre]

I hope that was a joke dudley.

And no surprise. F1 cars are simply faster on road tracks.

[De Weberis]

Originally posted by Dudley
Yes, that's just what we need, Schumacher driving into a deer.

Don't worry, Barrichello will catch it first.



Kidding, course.

[fastlegs]

I'm very surprised that the times were that close.

I expected the F1 Toyota to be much quicker than the CART car.

Several years ago when CART/CHAMP cars raced on the Gilles Villeneuve circuit in Montreal they were 4 to 5 seconds a lap slower than the F1 cars.

[Gilles4Ever]

Its not like Toyota would have done sims and set ups as if it were a race, they should get another 4 secs out of the car no prob

[De Weberis]

Originally posted by fastlegs
I'm very surprised that the times were that close.

I expected the F1 Toyota to be much quicker than the CART car.

As I understood, Zonta has made 3 laps until the surge of electric problems.
Considering it it's a very good time.

Also the is not much F1 rubber in the track, that might be dusty too - I know it's dusty all the time.

[DamattaSpeed]

ok, then. very good. time to put the f1 car on an oval. see if they can top gil de ferran's closed course record.

an oval is a "proper" race course, isn't it?


*cue the f1 snobs* in 3, 2, 1...

[jo-briggs]

If you race from here to there on a regular basis it is a proper race course as far as I'm concerned......

[Mark A]

Originally posted by DamattaSpeed
ok, then. very good. time to put the f1 car on an oval. see if they can top gil de ferran's closed course record.

an oval is a "proper" race course, isn't it?


*cue the f1 snobs* in 3, 2, 1...

I seem to remember reading a long time ago when Stefan Johannson was driving for Ferrari that they were at an Oval in the uS for a promotional advert shoot for Marlboro when he convinced the team to let him have a few flying laps and went faster than the previous race for CART, in a symetrical car with no set-up.

So I wouldn't be surprised if they lapped faster, completeing the full 500miles, perhaps a different story.

[SeanValen]

The Turkey GP can't come quick enough, and I hope Toyota are on the ball.


We all probabley are missing f1 testing!

[DamattaSpeed]

Originally posted by Mark A



I seem to remember reading a long time ago when Stefan Johannson was driving for Ferrari that they were at an Oval in the uS for a promotional advert shoot for Marlboro when he convinced the team to let him have a few flying laps and went faster than the previous race for CART, in a symetrical car with no set-up.

So I wouldn't be surprised if they lapped faster, completeing the full 500miles, perhaps a different story.

i would pay full admission to see an f1 car run even ten laps at fontana or michigan. do you recall which oval it was?

[Foghorn Leghorn]

In the article Zonta is quoted twice saying "slick" tyres.
Wassup with dat?

Any photos?

[Gilles4Ever]

http://www.autosport...to.php/id/56262

grooves

[Spunout]

ok, then. very good. time to put the f1 car on an oval. see if they can top gil de ferran's closed course record.

an oval is a "proper" race course, isn't it?


*cue the f1 snobs* in 3, 2, 1...

What exactly is your point? WRC car could go circles around F1 car on rally stage. Top Fuel car would murder F1 car on straight line. Hell, my old ice track car could beat F1 car on ice track - even if you put Schumacher himself behind the wheel.

CART/IRL cars are designed for ovals. In fact, don´t they use different chassis, wings, etc compared to road courses? Plain and simple: running on road course is the only valid comparison, since both series have cars designed for that purpose.

[DamattaSpeed]

Originally posted by Spunout


What exactly is your point? WRC car could go circles around F1 car on rally stage. Top Fuel car would murder F1 car on straight line. Hell, my old ice track car could beat F1 car on ice track - even if you put Schumacher himself behind the wheel.

CART/IRL cars are designed for ovals. In fact, don´t they use different chassis, wings, etc compared to road courses? Plain and simple: running on road course is the only valid comparison, since both series have cars designed for that purpose.

the old cart cars use different wings on road and oval courses. however, they were designed for both ovals and road courses. not just ovals. the point: what was the point of the comparison in the first place? a purpose built road course race car versus a car built for both ovals and road courses.

[Spunout]

the old cart cars use different wings on road and oval courses. however, they were designed for both ovals and road courses. not just ovals. the point: what was the point of the comparison in the first place? a purpose built road course race car versus a car built for both ovals and road courses.

The point was to compare cars from two different series - how fast they are on the same track.

You could as well say there is no point in doing comparisons at all, since the cars are based on different regulations. You would need to have F1 and CART/IRL teams building cars within the same regulations. And then you would say it´s pointless because F1 teams have bigger budgets...

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by Spunout
Plain and simple: running on road course is the only valid comparison, since both series have cars designed for that purpose.

Plain and simple, huh. The fact that both cars run under different regulations should be plain and simple enough. I have a friend who has a road registered pick-up truck weighting in at close to two tones that would whip a current F1 car to the quartermile, plain and simple.

What's the point :

[Spunout]

Plain and simple, huh. The fact that both cars run under different regulations should be plain and simple enough. I have a friend who has a road registered pick-up truck weighting in at close to two tones that would whip a current F1 car to the quartermile, plain and simple.

What's the point :

...of your pickup vs F1 comparison?

Don´t ask me.

[Moohcowh]

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S


If I'm not mistaken, Ferrari tried to broke that record in 2003 and couldn't by two seconds. Bertolini was the driver, I guess.

It was in 2004 using a 2003GA, I have some great photos from that day.

The problem was that they changed Ferrari's on saturday night as the one they'd used the previous two days had to be somewhere else on sunday, so they had to setup a different one owned by someone else that arrived early sunday morning, they only got limited running on the sunday, which was a shame.

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by Spunout
...of your pickup vs F1 comparison?

Don´t ask me.

Exactly. So what's the point with a Champ Car vs F1 comparison?

[Spunout]

Exactly. So what's the point with a Champ Car vs F1 comparison?

The point is they race on similar circuits. Whereas I doubt your friend is planning to win Monaco GP with his pickup...

People should lighten up, really. Nobody is trying to say OWRS sucks because the cars are slower compared to F1. It´s pointless to go defensive and talk about how F1 cars would be outclassed on ovals, because F1 cars aren´t designed for ovals. F1 vs CART/IRL on road courses is an interesting comparison, that´s all.

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by VresiBerba

Plain and simple, huh. The fact that both cars run under different regulations should be plain and simple enough. I have a friend who has a road registered pick-up truck weighting in at close to two tones that would whip a current F1 car to the quartermile, plain and simple.

What's the point :

False, about the only thing I can think about that would beat a F1 car in Quarter be a Top fuel. Trust me your Truck would get wipped so fast that some would question whether you had even started up your Truck.

I can't believe it when people say this ****, I mean where does it come from. I don't see How anyone can think for a moment that a half Ton 800 HP car with $50,000 tires, a gearbox setup to get to 7th ASAP, that spends often less then a 2-3 seconds in any gear but seventh, with all of that in mind still hit upwards of 210-220 in some races, and finally the gear changes are so quick it insane, can be beaten off the line and to a quarter by anything less then a Half million dollar car.

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by Spunout
The point is they race on similar circuits. Whereas I doubt your friend is planning to win Monaco GP with his pickup...

Neither will anyone in a Champ Car, which is exactly my point.

It´s pointless to go defensive and talk about how F1 cars would be outclassed on ovals, because F1 cars aren´t designed for ovals.

And equally it's pointless to go offensive and talk about how Champ Cars would be outclassed on road tracks because Champ Cars are not designed to compete with F1 cars.

F1 vs CART/IRL on road courses is an interesting comparison, that´s all.

But it's not, it never was and never will. Inherintly Champ Car, CART, Indycar whatever will for ever and ever be slower compared to Formula One cars if regulations doesn't allow them to be faster.

F1 can be slower than a snail, if regulations say they should. That's the point.

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by Topweasel
False, about the only thing I can think about that would beat a F1 car in Quarter be a Top fuel.

Really Do you even realise how much of an ass you just made yourself look like! What do you think, I was lying

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by VresiBerba

Neither will anyone in a Champ Car, which is exactly my point.


And equally it's pointless to go offensive and talk about how Champ Cars would be outclassed on road tracks because Champ Cars are not designed to compete with F1 cars.


But it's not, it never was and never will. Inherintly Champ Car, CART, Indycar whatever will for ever and ever be slower compared to Formula One cars if regulations doesn't allow them to be.

F1 can be slower than a snail, if regulations say they should. That's the point.

But you act as though the two aren't simalr cars. They are, and when two cars race the same track, why can't somone compare the times and to see what was faster in that situation. Since the two don't race together anymore can't create a generaliztion of which ones regulations is the faster car. Why do think that on 2 maybe three occasions MS and Ferrari have race jet fighters.

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by Topweasel
But you act as though the two aren't simalr cars.

Act

A champ Car is not even remotly similar to an F1 car, sure they have a chassis and four wheels in common, which is exactly the configuration of any car, including pickups, but that's about it really.

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by VresiBerba

Really Do you even realise how much of an ass you just made yourself look like! What do you think, I was lying

I don't care whether you were lying or not, I have heard **** like that to often and I decided to comment on it.

People are curious live with it. If I want to compair an apple with an eagle, then I have that option. In comparison to the topic on hand remember a good pair of dress shoes might be a better walking shoe then most or all other walking shooes.

[Spunout]

Re: pickup

I cannot recall any exact data of F1 cars on quarter mile. And of course, much would depend on setup.
In 2003 Schumacher´s Ferrari clocked 9.4 secs on 600 meter sprint vs Eurofighter. But the problem is that test took place at soaking wet conditions, meaning not only the acceleration was compromised, but apparently they had to dump the low drag setup they were originally planning (to avoid aquaplaning).

Certainly there are lots of cars that could beat F1 on straight line, but most of them are designed for being fast on straight line. Apart from running on gravel or bumby surface, this kind of challenge would actually be one of the weakest points of F1 car. They rarely have to accelerate from standstill, and because of turns, higher top speeds would be wasted anyway. In a nutshell: F1 cars are mostly designed for cornering fast.

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by Topweasel
I don't care whether you were lying or not, I have heard **** like that to often and I decided to comment on it.

Why didn't you just ask, just like any proper conversation would suggest? Because you're convinced that I'm full of **** even before you found out if I am or not.

Alright, the pickup in question is a heavely modified 1991 black GMC Syclone, that currently does the quartermile in the 8-second bracket with an end speed of 250 kph. That's several seconds quicker than the Enzo, for your information.

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by VresiBerba

Act

A champ Car is not even remotly similar to an F1 car, sure they have a chassis and four wheels in common, which is exactly the configuration of any car, including pickups, but that's about it really.

They both are Open wheel race cars devloped for top performances in certain situations. Or did you forget they used to even race in the same races together in the past.

Similarities.

They both are Open wheel
They both are open top
They both have front wings
They both have rear wings
Their production techniques are very simliar
They use the same engine manufacturers
Several driver both current and in the past have driven for both sports
They both on several occasions have raced on the same track
Sometimes they have raced together

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by Topweasel
Similarities.

They both are Open wheel
They both are open top
They both have front wings
They both have rear wings
Their production techniques are very simliar
They use the same engine manufacturers
Several driver both current and in the past have driven for both sports

For this comparison, you could just have used a WSR car, a GP2, F3, Indy Light (if they still would have existed) Toyota Atlantic, Formula Nippon etc. etc. to compare the F1 car with.

It's STILL pointless!