38 replies to this topic

[Ross Stonefeld]

At speedvision.com US Commentator Bob Varsha interviewed BAR Designer/Technical Director Malcolm Oastler.

Bob: What do those simulations tell you about, say, the top speed the car will reach?

Malcolm: Probably, the straight there is long enough that it could almost reach terminal velocity, if we chose to do so. We could do 240-plus miles an hour. We won't choose to do that, because you need to brake at the end of the straight and go around the infield section. I'd say the compromise will probably end up somewhere around 220.

Im starting to think that an F1 car could beat an Indycar at any track.

Maybe someday Reynard will accidentally test a Reynard-Honda-Firestone at Silverstone. In the Junior formulae you sometimes have Formula Fords and Formual 3's on the same track at the same time. Would it even be possible to have the Reynard Honda Indycar on the track at the same time as the Reynard Honda F1 car?

Ross Stonefeld
Aztec international

[Ray Bell]

And have drivers jumping between them?
An interesting prospect, Ross.

[Ali_G]

A Penske did actually test at Silverstone earlier this year. It was 2 seconds off the fastest F1 time this year.

But there was a few differences. An F1 car has grooved tyres. Also the Penske had no pop off valve on so it had roughly 1,200 horsepower. F1 = 800

An F1 car would destroy a CART car any day.

[Todd]

Not long ago, someone did a comparison of lap time differentials between CART and F1 using Formula Atlantic cars as a constant. There are tracks run on by both CART and FAs and there are tracks run on by F1 and FA. Using the percentages of the big cars lap times that the FAs achieved, the conclusion was reached that a top CART car is about as fast as a mid-field F1 car in qualifying trim. That ain't bad, when you consider that a CART chassis is less than a million dollars. According to Cosworth's own numbers, a Reynard-Ford is also half a second quicker through the quarter mile than a Jaguar R1.

[Ray Bell]

It would be interesting to see on the circuit just how right or wrong the assumptions taken in that might be.

[Ali_G]

In reality there is no contest. An F1 car is miles lighter than a CART car and that makes the difference.

Ali_G

[Chris G.]

Does it count that F1 cars SOUND 10 times better than CART cars?

[goGoGene]

Yes Chris, yes it does. I can't wait for Indy. I can remember last year in Montreal when I first heard the cars in person. Whatever gland holds adreneline in my body totally deflated. They sound heavenly.

ggg

p.s. the le mans winning audi sounded quite similar.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think the Penske Silverstone test was years and years ago and it actually broke the track record. But as you mentioned it wasnt running its pop-off valve and was well over 1000hp.

As for the F1 vs CART comparison using the Atlantic car as the constant, that was a rather odd relation.

I think for a fair test you'd have to do multiple tracks. A high speed track, a high grip track, and some kind of inbetween. You'd have to have 3 days of testing at each track, both cars at the same time.

Ross Stonefeld
Aztec International

[Ross Stonefeld]

At any rate... I'm a bit surprised that an F1 car could do 240mph under any conditions. It seems a bit high for a road racing car trimmed out. I'd hate to think what kinds of speeds they could do if they had a car designed for ovals.

Ross Stonefeld
Aztec International

[MacFan]

Peter Collins, then team manager of Benetton, claimed in a 1987 interview in CAR magazine that his team's car would do 300mph without wings! I'd pay to see that on a racetrack..

[arcwulf7]

Some interesting comments there. The 240mph terminal velocity would have to be achieved through such low downforce that it would muck up that clutzy Indy infield of course. But it sounds a treachorous enough a game of chicken -- who's willing to push the speed limit highest and who is willing to brake latest for Turn 1, especially since this is the one decent passing area of the track.

Peter Collins claims would have come at the height of the Turbo era, when unregulated boost could give the f1 cars well over 1,000 h.p. The aerodynamics would have been extraordninarily tricky, rather than the simple 'without wings' statements, to provide just enough downforce to hold the car to the road. I'm glad no one tried it, the last straight line contest of to test an unlimited top speed of road race type technology i believe was held in the late 30's and ended tragically when Bernd Rosemeyer's Auto Union flipped at 270 mph.

[Ali_G]

Please believe me here. Under the conditions of the fastest track on the F1 calender which is Hockenheim, an F1 car will only have a top speed of 230 mph.

Yet it can really do about 260 mph if they wanted. Firstly the downforce could be reduced to barely nothing. The gear ratios would be stretched out to give bad acceleration but enourmous top speed. Think about it.

F1 car = 230 mph = 850 bhp
McLaren F1 Road Car = 240mph = 750 bhp.

That just doesn't make sense. The top speed of an F1 car is much higher than what they say it is.

Ali_G

[Sudsbouy]

I wonder about all this talk of F1 cars going so fast. At present, CART is in the process of slowing their cars down. They have found that speeds in the 240 mph neighborhood are just too fast for good racing. Any mistake or miscalculation is magnified by the extreme speeds so that the consequences are unacceptable (e.g. Moore's accident).

Thank you.

[NYR2119935]

I beleive the Penske test at Silverstone in sin the early 1990's

93 or 94 ??

[Uncle Davy]

I think the run out of the infield twisties to the traditional south short chute, turn one (traditional Indianapolis designation, turn numbered thirteen in the F1 clockwise configuration), and main straight are going to be critical. The infield looks slow, and that stretch around the oval is mighty long. If you've never been to IMS, those corners are narrow and almost flat, compared to other large ovals; about 9 to 11 degrees of banking. The straights are loooong; and the walls are hard. Low aerodynamic downforce and high mechanical grip would be my first choice...little passing on the road course, must be fast on the oval. Stay away from the wall.

Top speeds will equal to, if not better than, those achieved at Hockenheim.

Just UD's prediction...I could be wrong. [p][Edited by Uncle Davy on 09-02-2000]

[bs]

ggg-

That would be the adrenal glands. They're located near yer kidneys and produce epinephrine (aka adrenaline).

[AlesiGOD]

The Le Mans winning Audi didnt sound like that, however some of the other Le Mans cars did(dont remember teams sorry, Ferrari?). But I agree they DO sound fantastic, a bit like Tie-fighters...

[Ali_G]

The highest top speeds of any track will be at Indy. They will be able to take turn 13 at top speed and so turn12 to turn 1 is just one long straight. Expect speeds of about 230 mph.

Niall

[Ross Stonefeld]

The Audi was a turbo charged V something.

the Courage (one of them) the Reynards and the Lolas were using Judd V10's which sound exactly like F1 cars.

There were no Ferraris this year, but the 333sp uses the old V12 upped to 4-5litres.

Ross Stonefeld
Aztec International

[Yelnats]

Mika set a new top speed "race" record this year at Hockenhiem (225 MPH) and these cars have done over 230 mph in various qualifying setups. Considering that these speeds were acieved after exiting curves at around 130mph and with enough wing to handle the twisty infield section, 240 mph would be easily achieved with the corner exit speeds above 200 mph on typical CART superspeedways. The small frontal area of the latest F1 Cars with their regulated narrow track and tires gives them enough advantage to overcome the slight HP disadvantage they currently have.

[JayWay]

Yelnates.

I'm pretty sure that was David who set the record.

[Ross Stonefeld]

The difference in HP between CART and F1 isnt that much, its mainly the weight and that the F1 car takes all the technology and aerodyanmics one step further than CART does

Ross Stonefeld
Aztec International

[NYR2119935]

Champcars were doing 250 mph plus on the backstretch at Michigan Speedway

[slipstream]

I have a very good book " Formula 1 yearbook 1999-2000" that has all the trap speeds from the 1999 season and the fastest Trap speed in 1999 was 362 kph or 225 mph by David Coulthard in his McLaren- Mercedes , that is faster than his Trap speed for this years Hockenheim race. As far as I know no F-1 Car has gone over 230 mph in practice or a race but I can imagine that they will be going that fast very soon, perhaps Monza or Indy this year ? I have heard that this years Ford XF champ car Engine has close to 940 HP , that is still at least 75 HP more than the most powerful F-1 Engines.

[tony]

Where are you guys getting these 200+ mph estimates. The estimates I have seen say the top speed at Indy should be around 180 mph.

[tony]

Sorry guys, you're right. I listened to my sourse again. The 180 mph figure is the estimated speed for the banked turn. Pretty exciting!!

[NYR2119935]

speeds should be between 180 mph and 230 mph at Indy straight

The FIA has not tested an F1 car there yet?

[IndyIan]

Ali_G
F1 cars are not really designed for top speed. Your comparison of the F1 road car vs. the F1 car in top speed doesn't take into account the huge drag coeffiecent of an F1 car in any configuration (open wheels = big drag). A stock F1 road car with ~500bhp (I forget the exact number) actually out accelerates the F1 car (in average race trim) after 125mph! Wouldn't that be neat to pass Mika down a long straight with your road car, of course he would start braking 500m after you so he would probably get to the corner first.
Villenueve said in an interview that the oval corner would easily be taken flat but there should be some good slipstreaming.

[Damop]

Ali-G - for shame, mixing length units to describe differences in mass. It kills your argument.

IndyIan is right. The aerodynamcis of high-performance road cars are a lot cleaner for top-speed runs. Also don't forget that drag builds as the square of velocity. That is why comparing a 450 hp Viper and a 600 hp Venom Viper with stock bodywork, there is very little difference in top speed. Keeping all other things constant, increasing horsepower by 10 percent will not result in a 10 percent increase in top speed...

[Ray Bell]

So would I be happy with a 450hp version?

[goGoGene]

AlesiGOD, I haven't heard an F1 car since Montreal last year, acoustic memory is short, I just love the sound of F1 cars, and I thought that the Audi was the best sounding car at the race...that's the reason for the comparison.

Your Tie-fighter description is very apt don't recall anything special about the reynard's engine note.

ggg

[stevew]

Just some info:

The all-time fastest lap ever run at Indy (oval, of course) was set by Arie Luyendyk during practice for the 1996 race. He toured the oval at an average speed of 239.260 mph or 2.5 miles in 37.616 seconds. If anyone has ever been to Indy and taken the tour bus around the place, that seems impossible!

I can't back this up, but the highest top speed I ever heard there was 248. Luyendyk again in a Menards Buick (sorry, don't remember the year). The highest top speed I ever heard for a CART car was 251, set by Andre Ribiero at Michigan.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Mo Gugelmin did a lap at 240mph at california in 97..he did a practice lap at 242 but it wasnt official

Ross Stonefeld
Aztec International

[slipstream]

At this years Michigan 500 Paul Tracy claimed he was going 248 mph and the car was still accelerating. I heard a story that when Penske was testing the 1994 Mercedes Indy engine at Michigan it was going over 250 mph through the speed traps.

[MattB]

It strikes me that the infield section of the Indy track is rather Mickey Mouse, kind of like the Hungary circuit where F1 cars suddenly develope bizarre extra wing combos. For a team to do really consistent quick lap times a balance will most likely need to be sorted out. Since it is a new track where drivers haven't tested I would doubt teams will waste time trying to hit a super high top speed and instead will work towards balance. I have heard it said that Canada is a place where they try and reach that balance. While attending the Canadian GP for the last two years it is astounding to see how much push is inherent in a modern F1 car, so I think the teams will try and reach a happy mix of high speed slipperiness, with some good stick for the infield, otherwise the lap times will really suffer. Losing out a bit in top speed will surely be gained through the twisty and tight infield.

[mtl'78]

I am always fascinated when they make an F1 car jump through hoops. A particularily memorable occasion was when Ferrari, in the midst of their worst season in decades, decided to do a publicity stunt and have Gilles race against an Italian Airforce jet. The race was over 1 mile, straight line. They did 3 runs, the jet won the 1st two, buit then Gilles asked to have all the wigns removed, this apparently made a HUGE difference as he beat the jet easily on the thrid run. That must have been a hell of a show though.

This was of course in the Turbo era, with Carbon Fiber in its infancy you had cars with 1200+ HP's and who weighed less and less every season.

[ChessNH]

Making the assumption that an F1 car can do 240-260 is there a driver alive that would do that speed at Indy. I think we would see a whole lot of lifting. Daddy Shumacher would not even take Eau Rouge Flat with fresh tires and Qual trim

[baddog]

there is no corner at indy that involves the sort of difficult compression turn that eau rouge presents. if the car was capable of goign round the corner at 260, the drivers would do so. simple

Shaun