61 replies to this topic

[Tomecek]

Holly mother jesus!

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/54084

To be honest with you, I am really surprised. Up until now I thought it is ok as long as you will not get any benefit in lap times...

[jokuvaan]

Is this story elsewhere in F1 newsworld?

[Tomecek]

To clarify for admins: this is not about De la Rosa - Schumi incident, but general about this issue. For me as a go-kart and sim racer it is really interesting to know the others opinion.

[VoidNT]

Charlie Whiting seem completely lost the plot, I'm afraid. No wonder, the man is
- FIA Race Director
- Safety Delegate
- Permanent Starter at F1 races
- the head of the FIA Formula 1 Technical Department

It means his job is to do absolutely everything regarding Grand Prix policing. In addition he is walking F1 technical regulations and the one who's opinions are the only true rules in F1. Being in his footsteps I would already cracked my head long time ago.

Give him a rest. He needs to take his medicine and long vacation. Replace Charlie with a couple of men with well-written job functions.

[prty]

Originally posted by jokuvaan
Is this story elsewhere in F1 newsworld?

I provided the link to a de la Rosa mp3 interview here. I don't know if they got it from there because I'm not a suscriber and can't read it.

[carbonfibre]

Why is everyone so surprised?

Michael was alongside Pedro in the chicane! Pedro didnt leave him any space so Michael had to cut in order to avoid a collision. Nothing wrong with that.

You ofcourse can't cut the chicane while you are behind and get away with it. People have been cutting chicane's for years without penalty's, because it was under those "certain circumstances".

[MortenF1]

No-one believes you can cut a chicane if you're behind. It's about incidents where driver x realizes he'll be passed, and then decides to ease the brakes and straightline the chicane, in order to keep his position.

[carbonfibre]

Originally posted by race addicted
No-one believes you can cut a chicane if you're behind. It's about incidents where driver x realizes he'll be passed, and then decides to ease the brakes and straightline the chicane, in order to keep his position.

That should be punished. But that wasnt what Michael did in Hungary. Like i said if the other driver gives the other enough space and he still cuts the chicane then he should be punished.

"The position is that if you are not side by side with the driver ahead of you going into the chicane, then the driver who is ahead of you can jump the chicane and keep his position without being penalised," continued de la Rosa.

That's in the article. But what does this have to do with Michael and Pedro in Hungary? Because Michael never cut the chicane while being ahead of Pedro going into the chicane. So i don't see how this can be the outcome of that conversation they had about that incident.

Like i said Michael and Pedro were side by side in the middle of the chicane so i don't see how this relates to hungary (where it is all about).

[Dragonfly]

Seems to me I've been right in my last post in the other thread

[carbonfibre]

Originally posted by Dragonfly
Seems to me I've been right in my last post in the other thread

Indeed this "certain circumstances" have been around for a long while already.

So i don't see why it's all that special, maybe Pedro forgot them?

[Slick Rick]

Guaranteed that will be a rulle changed in a race or two. Pedro said himself he is gonna exploit that in the future.
Not good in my opinion

[kukari]

Next time it happens and it is not Schumacher, the rules will change.

If somebody outbrakes you on the corner then he outbrakes you. You cannot cut a corner and put your foot down and drive infront. You have left the track when you cutted the corner.

I can't believe Whiting has become such an idiot. First he manipulates rules middle of the season with this mass damper thing and then makes new rules about cutting corner when you are driving a Ferrari. What next?
What is the background of this all?
just can't believe this is happening.

[R Soul]

We wouldn't have this problem if the chicane run-off areas weren't full of nice smooth tarmac.

[ferrariforlife]

Its micheal.... lets start a thread

[jokuvaan]

We wouldn't have this problem if the chicane run-off areas weren't full of nice smooth tarmac.

I was thinking same first, putting some rough surface so that "straighten guy" could not keep enough speed versus guy going on track. But then realised how much work it would be and difficult to adjust.

Before recent times, obvious rule that all people inside and outside F1 knew was that guy who shortcutted in battle had to let other(guy using actual track) pass. This was often seen in Monaco.

[ClubmanGT]

Originally posted by jokuvaan
Before recent times, obvious rule that all people inside and outside F1 knew was that guy who shortcutted in battle had to let other(guy using actual track) pass. This was often seen in Monaco.

I would say it happens more often in Canada and at the Ring - if you get it wrong at Monaco you usually have to come to a complete stop, lest you root the bottom of the car on the rumblestrip.

I'm glad to see De La Rosa keeping a level head and talking frankly about it, not being an emo-****** ala Villenueve or even Schumacher. If he doesn't get that seat at Macca's next year it will be a travesty.

[Menace]

Thats just the thing, there should be a significant penalty in lap-times if you are forced to cut a corner. While i agree that the large tarmac runoff areas are more safe then sand-traps... atleast sand-traps punish the driver for the mistake.

[Mox]

Originally posted by Tomecek
To clarify for admins: this is not about De la Rosa - Schumi incident, but general about this issue. For me as a go-kart and sim racer it is really interesting to know the others opinion.

Here's my opinion: It's pathetic!

It doesn't matter if it's Schumacher or anybody else. When this happens, it is typically a leading driver losing the inside line into the chicane and thus being "unable" to turn in. Well ... that means you've been beaten to the corner and lose a position. It doesn't mean that you - in the name of safety or other excuses - get to straightline the chicane and keep your position. It means you need to get hard on the brakes to make the corner.

Lose your position? Too bad!

What's next? Straightlining Variante Bassa? Not really using the intended track layout?

It's a joke. Completely insane. And that is what I read in the words of de la Rosa, even though he never says it.

[Lantern]

Originally posted by Mox


Here's my opinion: It's pathetic!

It doesn't matter if it's Schumacher or anybody else. When this happens, it is typically a leading driver losing the inside line into the chicane and thus being "unable" to turn in. Well ... that means you've been beaten to the corner and lose a position. It doesn't mean that you - in the name of safety or other excuses - get to straightline the chicane and keep your position. It means you need to get hard on the brakes to make the corner.

Lose your position? Too bad!

What's next? Straightlining Variante Bassa? Not really using the intended track layout?

It's a joke. Completely insane. And that is what I read in the words of de la Rosa, even though he never says it.

I don't think so. I think this is something that has needed looking into for some time now. We've seen drivers in the past cut chicanes to avoid incident while being dive bombed down the inside with no penalty. But, since it is Schumacher the magnifying glass is on. So this is a good thing!!! Finally, after this is pushed a little by the other drivers the FIA will be FORCED to lay down some sort of RULE that can be read, followed and enforced.

It will be worth watching who pushes hardest until then however.

[MarkWRX]

So now the FIA needs to clarify this position:

I am preparing to overtake a driver going into a chicane. That driver decides, in light of the recent ruling by the FIA, to straightline the chicane. Can I then also straightline the chicane to avoid losing too much time by actually staying on the marked racing surface? Or must I give up all the time I have spent the last five laps gaining and start all over again.

Or perhaps I should just paint my car red and possibly confuse Race Control.

Mag

[Buttoneer]

Apart from the red car comment of bitterness, you've hit the nail on the head. Where next for this rule? Just not bother with chicanes at all?

It makes no sense at all to ignore what I thought was a rule that at least two wheels must always be on the track.

[F1Johnny]

I wonder what would have happened if it was the last lap? Would they have penalised MS? They have to clarify it. If in a close racing situation you use the chicane to your advantage or to protect from a pass you should give up your spot. If you are alone and cut the chicane more than once with a view to gain time you should also be penalised.

[Sakae]

Originally posted by Mox


Here's my opinion: It's pathetic!

It doesn't matter if it's Schumacher or anybody else. When this happens, it is typically a leading driver losing the inside line into the chicane and thus being "unable" to turn in. Well ... that means you've been beaten to the corner and lose a position. It doesn't mean that you - in the name of safety or other excuses - get to straightline the chicane and keep your position. It means you need to get hard on the brakes to make the corner.

Lose your position? Too bad!

What's next? Straightlining Variante Bassa? Not really using the intended track layout?

It's a joke. Completely insane. And that is what I read in the words of de la Rosa, even though he never says it.

Consider scenario when driver brakes very late, gets ahead by the nose on the inside, and in process in straight line forces his opponent off the tarmac as that one is avoiding collision. Do you think that this kind of driving should be awarded by letting the "bombing" driver to keep his position?

[Reversa]

Montoya, Monza 2003. Variante della Roggia.

[ferrariforlife]

so according to popular opinion of AtlasF1 BB if a driver makes a mistake he should let the whole field pass... or wait maybe it is just ferrari drivers who must receive a stop & go and 10 grid slots penalties when making mistakes

[Sakae]

I admire overtaking manouver during which both drivers are relatively save and stay at the end in control of their vehicles, however premediated atack representing plan "two are entering chicane, and only one comes out alive", is something I have always despised. To put it differently, some drivers play(ed) "chicken", and put onus on their opponent to give up tarmack, or some body parts if he wanted to avoid large altercation. Three names most involved in that type of driving that pop up in my mind aren't active in F1 anymore.

[Sakae]

Originally posted by ferrariforlife
so according to popular opinion of AtlasF1 BB if a driver makes a mistake he should let the whole field pass... or wait maybe it is just ferrari drivers who must receive a stop & go and 10 grid slots penalties when making mistakes

I think discussion is, whether a driver should be allowed to gain or keep a position, if he cuts the chicane? Traditionally the answer is NO! If you advanced a place, you give it up. It's not such clear cut whether leading driver should loose a place, if he takes a shortcut. I think it depends on circumstances, and subjective judgement of Stewards that follows.

[Dragonfly]

Originally posted by MiPe


Consider scenario when driver brakes very late, gets ahead by the nose on the inside, and in process in straight line forces his opponent off the tarmac as that one is avoiding collision. Do you think that this kind of driving should be awarded by letting the "bombing" driver to keep his position?

Just like Heidfeld did when passing MS. Could not kill his speed, went straight forward up to the outer kerb and hit the Ferraris wheel trying to stay on track in the meantime.

[Melbourne Park]

I think what Pedro is quoted as saying is illogical. He says that what Michael did was OK in Hungary, but I thought Michael was side by side with Pedro.

"... I think he [MS] was okay, defending his position, it is just whether we can all do that or not. ... I know now the answer - so what he did then was correct."

I thought Pedro was alongside when trying to get past. Since when has the classsical driver pass been from clear behind?

Then he says that its OK to by-pass the chicane if you are clear ahead. Which means every lap of the race. But that's not how you overtake is it? So, Pedro made a verbal mistake IMO, or he was mis-quoted. I wonder what he said in Spanish, that would be more useful.

"..."The position is that if you are not side by side with the driver ahead of you going into the chicane, then the driver who is ahead of you can jump the chicane and keep his position without being penalised," continued de la Rosa.

Can't be right ... I think he mean't to say that if your side by side, marginally in front, with no where to go, then its OK to cross the chicane, rather than have a racing incident and hit the guy next to you. Which makes sense. In other words, remove the word "not" and the quoted sentence then makes logical sense.

[squidbreath]

Originally posted by kukari
Next time it happens and it is not Schumacher, the rules will change.

Indeed.

[squidbreath]

Originally posted by ClubmanGT
...being an emo-****** ala Villenueve...

Shall we start another thread? BTW what will the Villeneuve fans grumble about now that he is gone?

[squidbreath]

Originally posted by Mox


Here's my opinion: It's pathetic!

It doesn't matter if it's Schumacher or anybody else. When this happens, it is typically a leading driver losing the inside line into the chicane and thus being "unable" to turn in. Well ... that means you've been beaten to the corner and lose a position. It doesn't mean that you - in the name of safety or other excuses - get to straightline the chicane and keep your position. It means you need to get hard on the brakes to make the corner.

Lose your position? Too bad!

What's next? Straightlining Variante Bassa? Not really using the intended track layout?

It's a joke. Completely insane. And that is what I read in the words of de la Rosa, even though he never says it.

I heartily endorse this view.

[squidbreath]

Originally posted by Buttoneer
Apart from the red car comment of bitterness, you've hit the nail on the head...

Bitterness? Yes.
Truth? Yes.

[CWeil]

De La Rosa's comments are completely tongue-in-cheek. Of course it's not ok to cut the chicane, and Michael had space to take the chicane, he just would've been passed. I'm not anti-Schumacher, but watch the video- he didn't even attempt to turn in for it. If he didn't have space and knew he was going to get passed, he should've cut the chicane then let Pedro overtake him by just barely lifting off the throttle. Then, he could go back to fighting for position.

He's not the only one who's done this in the past, and sometimes race control will order the driver to relinquish position, and sometimes they do nothing. It's very inconsistent and aggravating, in my opinion. It should never be acceptable, unless the overtaking driver does a very unsafe maneuver that would otherwise cause a crash.

De La Rosa's comments are basically a subtly angry of highlighting the rediculous nature of the ruling- if Schumacher escapes penalty for it, then no driver should ever be punished for cutting the chicane, thus no driver should bother taking them. I highly, highly doubt De La Rosa would ever actually try to PUSH the ruling, but had to make the point clear anyway. Obviously he doesn't REALLY believe that what Michael did was right, but played his own devil's advocate to show why the FIA's ruling is, well, illogical. Cheers to him for that- he gets his point across entirely without sounding like a colicky baby.

The whole ruling is very, very weird- it ended up not mattering, because De La Rosa passed him, but they definitely should have at least stated in this "clarification" that he would have been punished if he never lost the position. But, instead, they claim he did nothing wrong, hence the comments from PDLR.

[Melbourne Park]

I recall with Webber and Alonso last year at Monaco, the situation was somewhat reversed ie FA behaved a lot like MS did at Hungary at the chicanes.

[CWeil]

It's not new and it happens multiple times a year at certain tracks- Monaco is certainly one of the most common. It's just odd that sometimes it garners a penalty, and other times not.

[le chat noir]

I don't think that there is actually any problem here.

The driver coming to overtake, if alongside but with his nose behind, must take the chicane leaving space for the other driver. If he doesn't do so, the guy hits an invisible wall with nowhere else to go and as such can cut the chicane and keep his place - exactly as at Hungary.
Now if the overtaking driver gets his nose in front of the other guy, before they begin braking for the corner, he has the right to any line, as he is leading into the corner. The other guy may still need to cut the chicane, but he would have to cede position if this took him back past.
And finally if the other guy who is defending cuts the chicane when there was space for him to take the corner, ie when the overtaker leaves space, the defender would be called to cede the place again. The judgement would be left to the stewards on this, but I think its usually quite clear. They couldn't look to their side, see the other guys nose level with their cockpit, and just keep their foot planted to go straight on, gaining a second or two.

[bobqzzi]

Originally posted by Buttoneer
[B] Just not bother with chicanes at all?

It]

That seems the best solution to me, Chicanes are extremely silly. If you need to slow the cars down, put in a proper corner

[inaki]

Originally posted by carbonfibre
Why is everyone so surprised?

Michael was alongside Pedro in the chicane! Pedro didnt leave him any space so Michael had to cut in order to avoid a collision. Nothing wrong with that.

I do not agree at all.

In the chicane Pedro could not left that space,he was parallel to Michael and he got the "right" or "good" position (if you prefer this than racing line) Pedro was over the kerbs. The chicane has a small radius and does not give the chance to do it side-by-side.

[inaki]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
I recall with Webber and Alonso last year at Monaco, the situation was somewhat reversed ie FA behaved a lot like MS did at Hungary at the chicanes.

I do not think that the situation between Alonso & Webber in Monaco are exactly similar or can be exactly compared with MS & PDLR one.

MS cutting chicane


I do not see in any of those 2 overtaking chances PDLR invading chicane, Webber went inside the chicane both times. So Webber and Alonso should both be penalized. It was a draw. Webber overtook in a very unorthodox way and totally outbraked the car and lost the corner, twice. De la Rosa was not at fault at all, as Webber was IMO.

Webber - Alonso in Monaco 2005

[Lantern]

Originally posted by bobqzzi


That seems the best solution to me, Chicanes are extremely silly. If you need to slow the cars down, put in a proper corner

Or at least make it so that the area used to straightline is not as fast. That way the tracks wouldn't complain of having to spend so much money as an excuse for not putting in a proper corner.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by carbonfibre
Why is everyone so surprised?

Michael was alongside Pedro in the chicane! Pedro didnt leave him any space so Michael had to cut in order to avoid a collision. Nothing wrong with that.

You ofcourse can't cut the chicane while you are behind and get away with it. People have been cutting chicane's for years without penalty's, because it was under those "certain circumstances".

So its ok to stop people overtaking you by cutting chicanes? Most stupid rule ever and contrary to racing. He was not forced to cut the chicane, he could have braked earlier. If he did have to cut then he should give position back because he lost the corner.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by bobqzzi
That seems the best solution to me, Chicanes are extremely silly. If you need to slow the cars down, put in a proper corner

Well, all the Michelin teams at least wanted a chicane put in for the 2005 US GP.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by inaki


I do not think that the situation between Alonso & Webber in Monaco are exactly similar or can be exactly compared with MS & PDLR one.

MS cutting chicane


I do not see in any of those 2 overtaking chances PDLR invading chicane, Webber went inside the chicane both times. So Webber and Alonso should both be penalized. It was a draw. Webber overtook in a very unorthodox way and totally outbraked the car and lost the corner, twice. De la Rosa was not at fault at all, as Webber was IMO.

Webber - Alonso in Monaco 2005

I haven't time to look at it right now, will.

But I still think Pedro's quote lacked shoun=ldn't have had a "no".

[Peter Perfect]

Originally posted by inaki


I do not think that the situation between Alonso & Webber in Monaco are exactly similar or can be exactly compared with MS & PDLR one.

MS cutting chicane


I do not see in any of those 2 overtaking chances PDLR invading chicane, Webber went inside the chicane both times. So Webber and Alonso should both be penalized. It was a draw. Webber overtook in a very unorthodox way and totally outbraked the car and lost the corner, twice. De la Rosa was not at fault at all, as Webber was IMO.

Webber - Alonso in Monaco 2005

Looking at the Alonso/Webber fight it seems that Webber outbrakes himself twice, trying to make the chicane but cutting it clearly. While Alonso both times seems to have slowed down enough to make it and cut in behind Webber, but chooses instead to cut the chicane on purpose to try and maintain his position after he sees where Webber's gone.

With the MS/Pedro (and MS/Nick) fight MS, presumably because he knows the chicane is surrounded by tarmac, fights all the way into the first corner. I think if there'd been a gravel trap there instead we wouldn't have seen the same approach by MS, he'd have given up before then and stuck to the track.

While I like the tracks which include large tarmac runoffs, as IMHO it promotes more overtaking as there's less chance of going out of the race if the attempt fails, there should always be gravel or at least some way of slowing cars down in chicanes. The temptation to jump chicanes (Canada/Monaco/Hungary/...) often seems too great for the drivers to resist, leading to big arguments over who should relinquish their position. Make sure they can't skip them and these problems will go away.

[carbonfibre]

With the MS/Pedro (and MS/Nick) fight MS, presumably because he knows the chicane is surrounded by tarmac, fights all the way into the first corner. I think if there'd been a gravel trap there instead we wouldn't have seen the same approach by MS, he'd have given up before then and stuck to the track.

Im pretty sure of that. If there was a big graveltrap outside of every chicane we wouldnt have seen that kind of defending. Now with the tarmac the drivers can take more chances because you will get away with it anyway.

[K-One]

Originally posted by carbonfibre
Why is everyone so surprised?

Michael was alongside Pedro in the chicane! Pedro didnt leave him any space so Michael had to cut in order to avoid a collision. Nothing wrong with that.

If there would have been grass or gravel, MS would have braked instead of cutting it. Usually passes happen when someone gets alongside and the other driver has no choice but to brake and lose position. That was what happened there, MS cut chicane and didn't loose anything.

[carbonfibre]

Like i said that wouldnt have happend if there was a graveltrap, because like you said Michael would have backed off.

So the point is: Michael took full advantage of the rules, because what he did was within the rules. A lap later he was behind and he took his place behind Pedro, because if he would have gone ahead he would have got a penalty.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Mox


Here's my opinion: It's pathetic!

It doesn't matter if it's Schumacher or anybody else. When this happens, it is typically a leading driver losing the inside line into the chicane and thus being "unable" to turn in. Well ... that means you've been beaten to the corner and lose a position. It doesn't mean that you - in the name of safety or other excuses - get to straightline the chicane and keep your position. It means you need to get hard on the brakes to make the corner.

Lose your position? Too bad!

What's next? Straightlining Variante Bassa? Not really using the intended track layout?

It's a joke. Completely insane. And that is what I read in the words of de la Rosa, even though he never says it.

I do agree with that completely. However, what I also find rather pathetic is that so much fuss is being made of it now that MS was involved. This has been going on much longer and never got that much attention. But maybe he really is a magnifying glass.

[jk]

If Pedro had left room for Michael on the outside, he would truly have been a "bloody cheat" for keeping his position by cutting.
As it was, Pedro made a bomb and used the entire track by himself, leaving no room for Michael to go side-by-side (see Hamilton vs Glock in today's GP2 race if you want to see how to leave room to the other guy). Michael could either come to a complete stop and waiting for Pedro to get control of his car, or cut the chicane. Should Michael be forced to stop, because Pedro is out of control and needs the entire track for himself?


Anyway, this thing is far from new, and it is redicoulos how it is being hyped up. Montoya did nothing wrong when he beat Ferrari at Monza using this tactics, but now that it is the german guy doing exactly the same thing, he is destroying racing... If one of them is okay, the other is too. You can't have it any other way. And if Montoya destroyed racing back in 2001, well then...