20 replies to this topic

[signpainter]

I am a signpainter in need of some information for an upcoming project on a race car. Friends at Letterville said this may be the place to ask about car numbers painted on Lemans cars from the 1950's.

Please excuse my ignorance on cars from this time period. Could anyone tell me how the numbers and circles were painted on the cars as far as....1) Where the numbers in a flat paint, or gloss as today's paints? 2) Most important, were the circles behind the numbers brushed on or sprayed? The car that is being restored needs to be as close to original as possible.

I am assuming in the '50s, the circles were not masked and the circles behind the number brushed on in two or three coats to help hide the brushstrokes.

I would like to do this lettering job as close to original as possible.

Any information of race car lettering from this time period would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance for your replies.

Pam

[Barry Boor]

This very subject came up at the historic meeting at Oulton Park on Monday.

Roger and I were surmising as to when stick on numbers appeared and began to touch various numbers on cars to see how they were applied. Some current historic cars still have painted on numbers.

As to the type of paint, I think there is no particular hard and fast rule. In some cases I think the circles were painted, you could see the brush marks, but its a damn fine artist who can get a circle that good!

Our biggest puzzle was, what sort of paint did they use? It rarely seems to have washed off in wet weather but must have been relatively easy to remove because a different numbers would have needed to be applied maybe just a few days later.

Not much help I'm afraid but I think you probably pretty well have carte blanche on the matter.

[ianselva]

I used to race when they still painted the number ( not at Le mans though) and most people had the background already on the car - either painted or stuck on and then the signwriter painted your number on in the paddock. The finish as I remember was a matt or silk finish and the paint was removable with petrol after the meeting.
Hope that helps a bit.

[Arjan de Roos]

Having studied many pictures (b&w but also color), it appears to me that often those roundels (especially in the 50's) were aplied with a thin paint, as you could see the roundels were not fully white in some areas. Making modelling kits with those water slide decals look a little too perfect in a way (be a pro-modeller: paint those roundels and number ;) ).

Sometimes you can see a paint run going down when too much paint was applied. Often a number was painted on in a hurry (when a car was about to enter the track and the officials wanted an extra number).
But what paint? I once read a story they must have used paint that was also used to paint houses and could be removed with petrol, but this I cannot confirm.

[ensign14]

On one of the MFQ films there's a brief snatch of footage of a chap painting numbers on the cars for the Mille Migila - he was doing it freehand with what looked like whitewash, which is incredible as the numbers were so regular and neat. (Obviously Mercedes had their own solution, though...)

[Sharman]

Stuck on Fablon disc and stick on numbers bought from, among others, Les Leston. Alternate dependent on car colour and much cheaper was no disc and a tennis shoe cleaner which washed off with water

[ensign14]

Tony Rudd in his book "It Was Fun!" records how BRM had a book of stick-on numbers, which caused controversy one year when (I think) Monaco demanded they have black numbers on a white disc, until Rudd showed them the racing colours book which stated that the British colour was technically green with white numbers.

[kayemod]

I've seen references in several older books, 'Alf Francis Racing Mechanic' was one, to painting the numbers and circles on the cars with what today would be called plain old emulsion paint, almost certainly unmasked, brushed and done freehand by whoever had the least shaky hands. Once dried this stuff is fairly waterproof, and as Alf Francis said, also others in this thread, all could be washed off after the race with petrol if necessary. I also remember seeing a few imported racers in the 60s, probably from the US, that appeared to have been masked, sprayed and properly signwritten in gloss, but this sort of showy professionalism was rather frowned on back in those days.

[signpainter]

Thank you for the replies. All very interesting information. I didn't realize the numbers would be changed so often on the cars. I will discuss the results from this thread with the car restoration company and see how they want to proceed.

Thank you again for taking the time to reply.

Pam

[ensign14]

Just thinking about Le Mans in the 50s...I assume that the numbers had to be visible at night, as on the photos of some cars there is a hint of a light above the number, whereas on at least the Nardi one year there seemed to be some fluorescent stripes within the number. I think the Deep Sandersons vel sim in the 60s had flourescent white roundels which showed off the number well.

[RTH]

The background circles (where fitted, not then I think a mandatory requirement) would typically have been sprayed in cellulose by the cars owner in either white or black both were accepted.

The contrasting car numbers again in either black or white, this is up to the mid/late 60s typically were painted on to all the cars by the circuit or club signwriter who went around the paddock doing the cars for anyone who wanted it, which was most.
No year long numbers were allocated in those days as is now the case and you would have a different number for each race.
The signwriters were skilled men using a padded rest stick painted the numbers in correct proportion with great precision and looked perfect but were always freehand without even chalk guidlines, a joy to watch them in action . There are many motor sport videos from the period showing it being done.

Certainly the numbers were very easily washable off usually with just warm soapy water.

The white ones certainly had the appearance of meltonian shoe / cricket pad whitener or the paint used to mark out white lines on a football pitch high solid content matt white it was done very quickly in one coat, you could see the brush strokes in the numbers. Looked good surprisingly durable, didn't seem to melt in the rain needed a rub to get them off.

Black ones may have been bitumin based brown/black and a drop of paraffin, white spirit or petrol melted them instantly.

Fablon , contact, plastic sheet and letters took over somewhere about the late 60s

[D-Type]

I was once told that they used the type of paint secondhand car dealers use for tyres - either black or white. This was weather resistant but could be cleaned off with petrol. I have seen pictures of cars with numbers that had run due to a fuel leak which appears to corroborate this.

I vaguely remember a reference in Peter Miller's The Fast Ones to a signwriter painting the numbers on the Aston Martin team cars in the 1950's - Unfortunately I no longer have a copy.

At Le Mans the numbers were known in advance so their application would have been more 'professional' than at a club meeting but would still have needed to be removable without damaging the paintwork.

There was at one time a requirement for cars at Le Mans to have illuminated numbers. I vaguely remember a magazine article saying that a particular car was so original that it still had the lamps.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by ensign14
On one of the MFQ films there's a brief snatch of footage of a chap painting numbers on the cars for the Mille Migila - he was doing it freehand with what looked like whitewash, which is incredible as the numbers were so regular and neat. (Obviously Mercedes had their own solution, though...)

A wish such a chap would sneak into some of the modern F1 garages and paint some nice big old fashioned numbers on the cars....

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by RTH
The signwriters were skilled men using a padded rest stick painted the numbers in correct proportion with great precision and looked perfect but were always freehand without even chalk guidlines, a joy to watch them in action .

Fablon , contact, plastic sheet and letters took over somewhere about the late 60s

The stick you mention Richard is known in the trade as a 'mahl stick'. Something a painter must have especially when working on a large oil canvas.

In the late 60s, I recall often getting the job of going to the Les Leston shop at Brands or Snetterton to buy the stick on numbers, as soon as we got to the circuit before scrutineering. With special saloons being the last race of the day (more often than not) and therefore having a three digit number we had a rough deal, having to buy three extra numbers each time! I also remember my father cutting his own numbers from sheets of black sticky plastic on a Saturday evening before a meeting. I also usually had the job of sticking them on with severe restrictions on pocket money if there were any air bubbles or not put on straight!

On page 33 of Graham Gauld's 'Historic Racing' magazine ( Vol.1 Issue 3, November 1994) there is a full page photo of Andrew Ferguson painting the number 82 on Jimmy's Team Lotus 38 at Indy. Colin could not find the signwriter hence Andrew got the job, Colin was not impressed with his efforts!

[Barry Boor]

Completely O.T. and totally fatuous - I have decided to re-number my slot cars for every race I run.

I borrowed my old school's vinyl cutting machine, bought 2 rolls of sticky backed vinyl (black and white) and have so far cut just short of 27,000 individual digits to use on the cars.

[Sharman]

[

Fablon , contact, plastic sheet and letters took over somewhere about the late 60s [/B]

End of 50's and as I said earlier dependent on car colour directly onto bodywork with a tennis shoe cleaner or if it was a light coloured car cut out Fablon numbers directly applied without the disc
JF

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
27,000 individual digits to use on the cars

Barry, mind you then have to run 27.000/ 7 (avg numbers on car) /20 (avg number of cars on the grid) = 192 races

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by D-Type
There was at one time a requirement for cars at Le Mans to have illuminated numbers. I vaguely remember a magazine article saying that a particular car was so original that it still had the lamps.

Not O.T. but certainly O.F. (Off Forum) but I was wondering what makes the roundels (squares actually) at Le Mans illuminated these days? Anyone aware with the technique behind this?

[RTH]

I believe it is a sheet plastic material with a coating that emits light when a current is passed through it.

[dbw]

the current standard for numbers among top restorers is gloss black one-shot lettering enamel pantnted by brush over a white circle of the same....two coats is usually needed on a dark car...for number fonts check period photos of the car of cars of the era at similar venues..often 4's weren't closed and serifs appeared here and there...tho hand painted in a hurry the original guys were skilled craftsmen and the result was very prescise.

[Arjan de Roos]

I guess in those days the trade of Window Shop Letter Painting was still existing, craftsmen that have been replaced by plotters cutting plastics.