63 replies to this topic

[swintex]

20 November 1957 - 1 September 1985

RIP

Richard Hards

[AndreasF1]

Stefan was well on his way to becomming an all time great.

[mikedeering]

Sadly missed. Stefan was an outstanding talent who never had the opportunity to deliver on the promise.

[David M. Kane]

Great car control, passion and a disarming smile.

[dretceterini]

I think that he was good enough to become world champion in F1 in the right car

[ensign14]

Originally posted by dretceterini
I think that he was good enough to become world champion in F1 in the right car

Can I beg to differ?

When they were together at Tyrrell, Bellof & Martin Brundle were very close in terms of performance. In 1984 Stefan outqualified Martin 5-3, but 4 of those 5 times were by 1 place and had it not been for his crash at Monaco it may have been level. Both had similar best performances that year, Bellof's 3rd-should-have-been-2nd at Monaco and Brundle's 2nd at Detroit.

In 1985, in the 6 races where they both had the same car, the score was 3-3 and again all of Bellof's "wins" were by one place (Brundle beat him by 4 at Monaco). And although Bellof scored Tyrrell's best result that year with a 4th at Detroit that was only because Alliot wanked into Brundle who was running ahead of Stefan.

Bellof's death was a tragedy for someone who had so much to prove. But there seems to be a lot of hyper-mythologizing about his talent because he died young and perhaps coloured by Ken Tyrrell's high opinion of him - especially as Ken had such a rep for talent spotting (although he also employed Slim Borgudd and Ricardo Zunino...).

I'd put Bellof on a similar ranking to Brundle. Very good, should have been a winner when the cards fell in his favour, but not a World Champ in F1...but then again you never know if his career would have Manselled rather than Warwicked...

[David M. Kane]

I tend to agree with Ken. He was just beginning to shine. We'll never know will we?

BTW Martin Brundle wasn't exactly a lightweight...not that was what you meant.

[irvine99]

RIP Stefan

irvine99

[Zoe]

Originally posted by ensign14

When they were together at Tyrrell, Bellof & Martin Brundle were very close in terms of performance. In 1984 Stefan outqualified Martin 5-3, but 4 of those 5 times were by 1 place and had it not been for his crash at Monaco it may have been level. Both had similar best performances that year, Bellof's 3rd-should-have-been-2nd at Monaco and Brundle's 2nd at Detroit.

Did you [B]see them both race? There is no way that Brundle was somewhere close to Bellof's league.

Zoe

[giacomo]

Originally posted by Zoe
Did you see them both race? There is no way that Brundle was somewhere close to Bellof's league.

I saw the 1984 and the 1985 F1 season.

And yes, Martin Brundle was very close to the level of Bellof. Almost even.

[ensign14]

What giacomo said. Except I couldn't split them.

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by ensign14

Can I beg to differ?

When they were together at Tyrrell, Bellof & Martin Brundle were very close in terms of performance. In 1984 Stefan outqualified Martin 5-3, but 4 of those 5 times were by 1 place and had it not been for his crash at Monaco it may have been level. Both had similar best performances that year, Bellof's 3rd-should-have-been-2nd at Monaco and Brundle's 2nd at Detroit.

In 1985, in the 6 races where they both had the same car, the score was 3-3 and again all of Bellof's "wins" were by one place (Brundle beat him by 4 at Monaco). And although Bellof scored Tyrrell's best result that year with a 4th at Detroit that was only because Alliot wanked into Brundle who was running ahead of Stefan.

Bellof's death was a tragedy for someone who had so much to prove. But there seems to be a lot of hyper-mythologizing about his talent because he died young and perhaps coloured by Ken Tyrrell's high opinion of him - especially as Ken had such a rep for talent spotting (although he also employed Slim Borgudd and Ricardo Zunino...).

I'd put Bellof on a similar ranking to Brundle. Very good, should have been a winner when the cards fell in his favour, but not a World Champ in F1...but then again you never know if his career would have Manselled rather than Warwicked...

Well, under the right situation (right car, etc), I think he could have been world champ. IMO, he was the best of his time in a sports-racer anyway.....

[Zoe]

Originally posted by giacomo
I saw the 1984 and the 1985 F1 season.

And yes, Martin Brundle was very close to the level of Bellof. Almost even.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

Zoe

[taylov]

Is it really 21 years ago?

I started watching motor racing 44 years ago and count myself fortunate to have seen Bellof in F1 F2 and sportcars during his all too short career.

At the time he impressed me more than almost any young driver has ever done. He had a Clark-like quality in terms of being able to jump into any type of car and to be quick. What really makes it hard to judge Bellof's position among his peers is the fact that most of the cars he jumped into were not premier division entries.

Boy, was he stunning in the Maurer F2 in early 1982 with back to back wins but the wheels fell off the team effort over the next 15 months, along with broken throttle cables, underweight cars, failure to arrive for races etc.

His all too brief spell in F1 was also in a decidedly less than top running team. It was only in Group C sportscars that we were able to see Bellof in a top team and my memory is of him running off and hiding from the opposition during his driving stints for the Rothmans works Porsche team.

By 1985 he was back in a less than top class team at Brun Motorsport, but a 3rd place at Mugello suggested that we were to see more great drives in Group C - then came Spa.....

What we were denied was a chance to see him in a top-3 F1 team - What a sight that would have been.

[David M. Kane]

The 100% talented guys like Moss, Clark, Senna and Schumacher didn't have to take big risks to win. 80-90% talent guy did, therefore, they had big ones, fatal ones, i.e. Bellof, Depailler, Koenigg,
Hawthorne, maybe even Cevert. Plus they were pushed VERY, VERY hard by the teams. Brian Redman tells the story of the time he was driving an F2 Ferrari and Forlgieri (spelling?) told him he was "only" 5th fastest when in fact he was 3rd!

When Bellof crashed he had just passed Ickx in Eau Rouge...a big RISK!

[FLB]

Originally posted by dretceterini
IMO, he was the best of his time in a sports-racer anyway.....

Derek Bell would have begged to differ, at least in 1983. Bellof was bloody quick, but he just had to prove he was the quickest, all the time. That's not usually something that's required for a sportscar driver, or even wanted. He let his emotions get the better of him, far too otfen IMHO.

The German could blow the opposition into the weeds, and the car as well...

[PCC]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
The 100% talented guys like Moss, Clark, Senna and Schumacher didn't have to take big risks to win. 80-90% talent guy did, therefore, they had big ones, fatal ones, i.e. Bellof, Depailler, Koenigg, Hawthorne, maybe even Cevert.

I may be misunderstanding, but you seem to imply that drivers tend to get killed when they're not quite good enough and thus try too hard. Your data suggests otherwise. Two of your three '100% talented guys' died racing, while a third had his career ended by an accident. Of your '80-90%' men, two died in craches caused by mechanical failure (not driver error), and a third died on the highway. The only one on your list never to have a massively serious accident is Schumacher - who has probably made more driving errors than everyone else on your list combined. I don't think that any simple, straightforward, consistent link between ability and fatality exists. Perhaps luck is a greater factor than we care to admit.

[David M. Kane]

Safety is a big factor too. The '70s cars were and are still pretty dangerous...I have the scars to prove it! Schumacher himself has stated that the older cars scare the @#$& out of him.

Who got killed in a road accident?

Sorry, but you haven't said anything to change my mind. Luck plays a part, that much I agree.
Clearly you were never on a race track with B. Hawthorne, sorry!

[David M. Kane]

At Monaco in 1978, Tom Pumpelly said it was only a matter of time before Gilles got killed. I asked why and he said you couldn't believe the moves he made in Formula Atlantic...REALLY spooky...and Tom was a pretty brave guy.

[PCC]

Actually David, I wasn't trying to change your mind so much as complicate a statement that I thought was a bit too sweeping a generalization. All sorts of drivers get killed for all sorts of reasons. However, I'm sure you're right that some drivers (at least in the past) were more likely to survive than others. I know many people believe that Gilles, and perhaps Bellof, and maybe even Rindt and Peterson were just accidents waiting to happen. Still, I'm sometimes struck by the fact that none of those accidents would have happened had the universe unfolded even slightly differently on that particular day... I mean, how on earth did de Cesaris survive and Jim Clark not?

[swintex]

Mike Hawthorn died on the http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Hog's_Back

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by David M. Kane

Clearly you were never on a race track with B. Hawthorne, sorry!

Were you? Bert Hawthorne was killed at Hockenheim in 1972...

This thread has gone waaaaay OT - can we get back to the subject of Stefan Bellof, please?

[David M. Kane]

Yes when he drove FF in the States for Fred Opert. And yes Decrasherais was a miracle...

[PCC]

Originally posted by Twin Window:
This thread has gone waaaaay OT - can we get back to the subject of Stefan Bellof, please?


Sorry, my fault. To me, Bellof, whatever his faults, was one of those (increasingly rare) drivers who could remind me why I got interested in motorsport in the first place. I have no idea what he would have achieved had he lived (that was a pretty talent-rich era in F1), but I'm sure he would have been an exciting addition to the mix.

[turbos4ever]

I think without a doubt Bellof would have been a consistent top-3 in WDC points guy, there is so much more involved to winning a WDC than just being a great driver.

In 1982 (83?), three drivers ruled F3 (it's been so long, maybe it was F2), at any rate, those three drivers were Senna, Brundle, and a guy named Calvin Fish. SEVERAL highly-acclaimed people thought AT THE TIME that Fish was the best of the three, but we would never know that because Fish never got an F1 ride, and drivers un europe are judged by two things: F1 championships, and LeMans wins.

Bellof, Brundle, Senna and Fish were four guys you just had to watch, few were like that, and I'd guess that today those four guys would be in the top 6 in points. Those four guys could outdrive 3/4's of today's F1 field.

I'm not too OT - I'm putting Bellof in an elite class of drivers.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by turbos4ever

In 1982 (83?), three drivers ruled F3 (it's been so long, maybe it was F2), at any rate, those three drivers were Senna, Brundle, and a guy named Calvin Fish. SEVERAL highly-acclaimed people thought AT THE TIME that Fish was the best of the three, but we would never know that because Fish never got an F1 ride, and drivers un europe are judged by two things: F1 championships, and LeMans wins.

At the risk of going OT again, I seem to remember Allen Berg and Davy Jones being quite highly touted as well, but all were considered well behind Brundle and Senna.

[Mohican]

Originally posted by David M. Kane

When Bellof crashed he had just passed Ickx in Eau Rouge...a big RISK!

I always thought that he crashed TRYING to pass Ickx on the outside into Eau Rouge. Sitting it out with Ickx on the outside meant getting the car off the track, at very high speed, straight into the barriers. And the 956/962 was never good at front-end protection...

[David M. Kane]

Mohican:

You are correct. A few years ago Bobby Rahal talked about safety in racing Porsches. He was very critical of the 935 accident of Rolf S. at Riverside as well as Stefan's and Manfred Winklehock at Mosport.

I really fancied Stefan; but what was he trying to prove by going around Jackie there? What a shame. In fact I think Jackie was never the same after that incident.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
The 100% talented guys like Moss, Clark, Senna and Schumacher didn't have to take big risks to win. 80-90% talent guy did, therefore, they had big ones, fatal ones, i.e. Bellof, Depailler, Koenigg,

Strange theory.

What about the fatal accidents of Rosemeyer, Ascari, Clark, Rindt or Senna then?

[FLB]

Originally posted by giacomo
Strange theory.

What about the fatal accidents of Rosemeyer, Ascari, Clark, Rindt or Senna then?

In Rindt's case, many people seem to think he either had a brake problem or that a half-shaft broke.

In Ascari's case, the truth will probably remain eternally unknown.

In Clark's case, some have argued that he *should* have felt if he had a tyre going down. But Jack Brabham himself said that on at least one other occasion, Clark had a slow punture and kept driving as if nothing had been wrong. His instinct was to overcome any problem the car might have had and his car control is still legendary to this day (EX: Indy 1964). Clark's Lotus also had big problems with the fuel meetering unit throughout that fateful week end, so it's possible that the engine suddenly caughed and hesitated, thus causing loss of control.

Rosemeyer is a complicated case. The political context cannot be ignored. He had to go for a record that day, come Hell of High Water. The pressure was enormous. However, driver error was (is) not supported by the evidence.

I'm sure you are aware that the cause of Senna's fatal accident is still the object of debate.

[David M. Kane]

Giacomo:

I read a lot of strange things here. You got me on the first 2, they were before my time. Rindt did himself no good by not wearing his submarine straps. He might have survived otherwise. Clark and Senna were clearly mechanical failures. Having viewed the Senna accident live, I was particularly upset by that one. Bernie didn't handle that one well.

Frankly, I throw a lot of stuff out there to see what I can stir up! Isn't that what debating is?
I certainly am no authority!

I do, however, think Bellof's and Rindt's deaths were stupid and that they could have been avoided.
I''d loved to see Bellof in a tier 1 team and I wished Rindt had gone with Brabham. I think he still could have won the WC.

[Mohican]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Mohican:

You are correct. A few years ago Bobby Rahal talked about safety in racing Porsches. He was very critical of the 935 accident of Rolf S. at Riverside as well as Stefan's and Manfred Winklehock at Mosport.

I really fancied Stefan; but what was he trying to prove by going around Jackie there? What a shame. In fact I think Jackie was never the same after that incident.

I think that he was trying to prove that he could beat the lead factory driver (Ickx) in a privately entered car - and maybe he could have done, but round the outside at Eau Rouge was not the place to prove it.

Bellof's accident always appeared to me to be down to driver error - the error being over-confidence, blind belief, whatever.

And, as said before, the lack of crash protection did not help. Having said that, I am on my fourth Porsche 911 - and I would not have wanted to have a front impact accident in any of them...

[Collombin]

Originally posted by Mohican
I think that he was trying to prove that he could beat the lead factory driver (Ickx) in a privately entered car - and maybe he could have done, but round the outside at Eau Rouge was not the place to prove it.

I agree Bellof's accident was driver error, but I wouldn't have described the location as the outside of Eau Rouge - Bellof tried to get up the inside of Ickx (on the left) into the first part of Eau Rouge (the left hander) and Ickx stuck to his normal racing line (as he was perfectly in his right to do), probably unaware of Bellof's attempt to pass. Bellof did not manage to get fully alongside Ickx into the corner and the back half of Ickx's car hit the front half of Bellof's - poor Stefan was then sent headlong into the barriers at the outside of the uphill right hander.

That's how I remember it anyway.

[Mallory Dan]

Originally posted by turbos4ever
I think without a doubt Bellof would have been a consistent top-3 in WDC points guy, there is so much more involved to winning a WDC than just being a great driver.

In 1982 (83?), three drivers ruled F3 (it's been so long, maybe it was F2), at any rate, those three drivers were Senna, Brundle, and a guy named Calvin Fish. SEVERAL highly-acclaimed people thought AT THE TIME that Fish was the best of the three, but we would never know that because Fish never got an F1 ride, and drivers un europe are judged by two things: F1 championships, and LeMans wins.

Bellof, Brundle, Senna and Fish were four guys you just had to watch, few were like that, and I'd guess that today those four guys would be in the top 6 in points. Those four guys could outdrive 3/4's of today's F1 field.

I'm not too OT - I'm putting Bellof in an elite class of drivers.

Calvin Fish, are you sure ?????? He'd done OK, but no more than that against Senna in FF2000 the year before, and certainly wasn't touted as highly as MB over the 82/83 winter.

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


Calvin Fish, are you sure ?????? He'd done OK, but no more than that against Senna in FF2000 the year before, and certainly wasn't touted as highly as MB over the 82/83 winter.

It's OT, but Fish wasn't in the same league. He just had a better engine then everyone else ;)

[FerrariV12]

I think a lot of people are underestimating Martin Brundle here - he rarely had decent equipment in F1, when he did he got close to teammate Schumacher, and everyone knows about his battles with Senna in F3. I know these extrapolated driver comparisons are often misleading but maybe it gives an idea of around where Bellof was? If he was equal or slightly ahead of Brundle in equal equipment..... Well perhaps if Brundle had been killed in 1985 we'd be talking about him as a potential future world champion today?

[Hugo Boecker]

I think 84 was one of the best "Rookie-Years" with Senna - Brundle - Bellof - Berger.
Same was in 65 with Rindt - Stewart - Hulme

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by mikedeering


It's OT, but Fish wasn't in the same league. He just had a better engine then everyone else ;)

Tuner? I thought everyone had Judd or Pedrazzani in those days? Was his a Brown VW? I cant remember.

[COUGAR508]

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker
I think 84 was one of the best "Rookie-Years" with Senna - Brundle - Bellof - Berger.
Same was in 65 with Rindt - Stewart - Hulme

Yes, I remember '84 as a time when lots of new talent made an impact. Of course, Senna, Brundle and Berger came direct from F3 (although Gerhard had done some touring cars as well), but Bellof arrived via a slightly different route.

[Benway]

Not to forget Jo Gartner, who wasn't that bad as well...

[ensign14]

And Francois Hesnault.

*cough*

[FLB]

Originally posted by ensign14
And Francois Hesnault.

*cough*

And Philippe Alliot.

*atchoo*

[AAA-Eagle]

24 years ago today

[Stephen W]

24 years ago today

Thanks for the reminder.

[Greatest]

R.I.P., Stefan... I miss him & those great sportscars!

[sonar]

I just got a newsletter from the Stefan Bellof website.
There's to be another Stefan bellof 'erlebnistag' at the Hockenheimring tomorrow.
A few days ago there was a third Stefan Bellof memorial day in Giessen, Germany.
On the Stefan Bellof website you can see some pictures of that day.
Also there's information on this site about the Hockenheimring erlebnistag.

[wolf sun]

6:11,130 around the Ring - that's how he should be remembered.

[Giraffe]

6:11,130 around the Ring - that's how he should be remembered.

By giraffe138

And this is the actual car in which he set that time, on display at the Silverstone Classic in July.

[wolf sun]

Thank you, Giraffe, really superb!

This must be 007-008, then. I think Derek Bell owns it, doesn't he?

[tom58long]

as a german and racing freak from 1973 on you can imagine, that i was so amazed to see him making his way to the top. i never was a "nationalist" in racing (don´t talk about football here) and going to races, i always loved to get in touch with people from different countries an talk about this and that. it was great. to be there for just for the event. okay - everybody had his favourite driver - but at least racing spectators were different :-)

but a successfull german driver could have been cool. stuck had so much bad luck, mass was......something and winkelhock was a real good guy but didn´t seemed to have the chance for going to the top. so bellof was THE MAN.

in august of 85 we made a trip to corse - shipping from nice. of course we made a slight sidestep to monaco to make it round the track. f1 wasn´t such popular these days in germany and i needed three laps to explain to the passengers what happend during the rain there in 1984.

whilst relaxing in corse, i read about winkelhock. so sad. when i came home i saw some coverage (with regards to winkelhock) of the german "aktuelles sportstudio" on tv where - on saturday before the german grand prix - bellof and winkelhock appeared together.

on september 1st i was waiting (at home in the meantime) for the "sportschau" with coverage from spa. this was so unfair. both within four weeks. aktuelles sportstudio with manfred and stefan. one month later both were gone. how strange is this?

i am so glad that i didn´t missed the opportunity to buy "Stefan Bellof - eine viel zu kurze Karriere" written by Rainer Braun and Ferdi Kräling. very, very nice pics and written with love.

thomas