29 replies to this topic

[John B]

Many people, myself included, have discussed the memorable eras of F1 and found the current period somewhat lacking. I feel the circuits themselves have something to do with this. Looking back, as late as the 1980s there were races at the old Kyalami and Ostereichring, Zaandvoort, Watkins Glen, Paul Ricard, Brands Hatch, etc, and even street races such as Long Beach and Adelaide.

I realize safety has a lot to do with some of the changes, but still wish more of the current tracks had the character/challenge of the older ones. After all, the modified Spa still has a place in F1, and few other tracks remotely compare to it.

[Don Capps]

John, I think you are correct. However, I personally feel that Spa is doomed and is on serious borrowed time. It will get the axe as soon as the y figure out how to pull it off and get away with it. Mark my words.

I think they could make a circuit like the Buenos Aires autodrome that can be made into various configurations and run all the F1 races at such a circuit - they all are just glorified kart tracks anyway. Besides, on TV who would either notice or really care? Gee, now that I think about the cars are all just very, very expensive karts as well. The bare tubs are probably virtually identical to about 99.99999% of us and only the paint schemes distinguish a McLaren from a Minardi from a Ferrari, etc., and so on.

Too bad that there hasn't much done to develop tracks that are both safe and scenic to spectators and interesting for drivers. I think Moss was on to something when he said racing had become too safe. Hmmmm, F1 as Mario Super Kart....


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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

[Fast One]

I started to write something very similar to what Don said a while ago, but wasn't sure how it would be received. I think racing has become to safe. And the biggest price that has been paid is in beatiful and demanding circuits. Todays over-chicaned stadium circuits are all just variations on a theme. I cherish a track like Spa, even in its current shortened configuration, because it represents what racing was and could be again with proper leadership. I used to hate Hockenheim, considering it a "nothing" circuit, but recently I grew to like it as one of the few "different" tracks in F1 with its numerous fast sections and the resulting high attrition. Now I see it too will fall to the Bernie and Max axe, becoming shortened and slower next year. Oh boy.

What modern racing lacks for me is the JUDGEMENT that used to be required to both suceed and survive. Drivers used to have to decide if the gain they might obtain for going to the limit was worth the risk of embracing a century old oak tree at 180 mph.
This also led to a respect for each other sadly lacking in modern racing. Todays drivers seem to think that punting the other guy off is acceptable. The old tracks wouldn't allow it: they would kill you.

I don't think the great tracks will return under the current regime. Clearly tracks like the old Ring, Reims, Spa, Clermont-Ferrand et al. do not lend themselves to todays commercial concerns. A pity and a loss for us all.

[This message has been edited by Fast One (edited 12-02-1999).]

[Don Capps]

Mario Andretti said that the worst thing that ever happened to sprint car racing was the full-roll cage since it made drivers think they were safe and could push it that extra little bit.... indeed the number of accidents and injuries went up at first!

When Senna figured out the that he could go that extra little bit since the cars and tracks were safer, things changed big time in F1. For the worse. If it hadn't been Senna it would have just been someone else. I can't see even Senna doing a Japan-punt on Prost at a track like the old Spa or the real Nurburgring or Reims. Fear is not a bad thing to have at times.

However, tracks are just a part of it. If they wanted to slow down the cars, just make them actually shift, use steel brakes, use mechanical throttle linkages, and then let them run the kart tracks. It would slow them down more than treaded tires ever could.

Oh, look at Hockenheim to be gone as well now you've mentioned it.

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

[Pete Stanley]

They'll get rid of Spa as soon as they can get away with it?? That is getting away with rather alot, even for Bernie. I think if Bernie scrapps Spa a rival series will start up.

I've heard rumblings from some for a little while now. Remember the late mess over the concorde agreement? I don't think that has been forgotten so quickly. I believe the fans may go with a rival series, too, especially with the advent of digital TV and all that it entails (no free broadcast in many countries, poorer quality of the world feed, etc.)

Could such a series rise above the choke-hold of Bernie & Max? Would some drivers be willing to risk an FIA ban?

[ket]

If F1 dump Spa, let CART race there!

[Racer.Demon]

I hesitate to become patriotic but the reshaped Zandvoort track would be a fine addition to the calendar. It has kept the long main straight and Tarzan, the Hugenholtzbocht is still there, and the run up to the daunting Scheivlak righthander, which is the core of the old circuit. The new infield section is interesting in a Sepang sort of way if a bit twiddly at parts - never enough room in Holland - but the good part is they have also kept the run-off areas too small, in fine Zandvoort tradition I might add...

The charming lack of run-off is also the reason the track has only received an F1 testing license instead of the full works. But compliments to the track authorities for retaining the old spirit of the track in a rebuilding which has been a far better job than they did back in 1972...

The trouble is, even if it would pass safety inspections, Bernie would rather replace Spa with Camel-smoking Dubai than with another Benelux venue. Now if we would all root for Verstappen being signed by Sir Frank and Coronel lining up at Arrows, then maybe BCE would see a marketing opportunity somewhere in there.

[Don Capps]

Pete, Remember that Bernie Ecclestone has already tried to get of Spa once and he usually gets his way even if it takes a day or two. Under the new scheme of things Spa is considered to be too long, its length is far more the 3-5 km kart tracks found elsewhere. Besides, you will see more & more races being held outside Europe as the F1A looks to maximize its profits. Spa is expendable to the FIA. Remember the Kleinerring is just across the border and so both Spa & the Hockenheimring are expendable. So, that's Dubai and China right there.

Zandvoort is, alas, part of history and so unimportant to the F1A. Next! I have always like Zandvoort for some reason. It and Spa were the sites of the first GP Championship races (1955) I saw and so I am sentimental about the place I reckon.

The new F1 kart tracks are like exactly like the tracks that were criticized by the GP community in the US for many years: little bits of drag strips followed by a hard braking zone followed by another point & squirt bit followed by.... Just "dash and jab, dash and jab" as Moss or someone who raced a lot on The Continent described it.

However, such is the tide of F1. Even if CART or someone really wanted to replace F1 when it mostly leaves Europe -- and don't expect the USGP to be very long-lived I am afraid, I give it 4-5 years max -- the FIA would make their life miserable even if the series was completely separate from the FIA, The World of Outlaws International....

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

[Dennis David]

Call me naïve but I honestly think that this goes in cycles. Mosley and Bernie won’t be on the scene much longer and I feel that there is growing sentiment that circuit design and indeed the entire show needs to be improved. From reports that I’ve read the Sepang circuit is not too bad and Suzuka is as good as any circuit in the past. If we remove a chicane here, reconfigure a corner there we could do wonders to many of the circuits in use today. As far as thrills and spills there is always the WRC!

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Keith Steele]

This is a tough one, because I too love the majestic old circuits. I enjoy the history surrounding them, and the legends that built them. While F1 has become a huge buisness, it has also experienced five years with no fatalities. I really, really, really hate driver fatalities. I realize many of our elder statesman of this board grew up with death in their motorsports, and may be somehwhat immune to it by now. But I flipped when I had heard Greg Moore died. If that crazy little french-canadian followed in his father's footsteps and died in the car, I'd be beside myself with grief and would probably take a long vacation from motorsports. As it stands, I'm in no hurry to get to the four or five cart races I usually attend each year. Perhaps the winter off season will change that. But I guess I ask what price for excitement? Yes the cookie cutter tracks are not as exciting, and the drivers do take risks that they wouldnt if the sport werent so safe. But I still tune in, hoping we get it back to the way it was in 96 or 97. I thoroughly enjoyed the on track action in those years. As Don said, make these guys shift the cars, etc... I wonder over the years how many races were lost due to a missed gear selection. That should be back in the formula. Because right now they are really expensive shifter carts. Put the slicks back on. Passing and excitement is possible in today's F1. It's Bernie and Max's egos that have destroyed the action, at least that's my feeling on the matter.

[Don Capps]

Keith has touched the fundamental point: driver or spectator deaths are simply not acceptable. While many of us may have hardened ourselves to driver deaths, I for one was never immune to it. The death of Jim Clark did more to stun me than about any other non-relative I can think of; I was at Le Mans in 1955 - thankfully far away from the accident and spared much of the sight of the mess it left; I was also at Spa in 1960 when Moss and Mike Taylor crashed on Saturday and Bristow and Stacey were killed in accidents; I just missed seeing Cevert's fatal crash in 1971; I was not far from where Helmuth Koinigg crashed in 1974 at Watkins Glen; indeed, at my very first GP/F1 race, Sergio Mantoverdi crashed his Maserati and ended up losing most of a leg as a result.

Cookie cutter circuits are the price of all this, but despite all the hype and the gazillions of new fans, The Show just isn't the same. The shifter karts are a part of it. Despite all the propaganda about the technology and so forth and so on about how advanced the trick stuff is, it all just another engineering exercise for the beakers to keep their brains fresh. F1 is to the automobile as military music is to music.

The potential for superb racing today is clearly there: safer tracks, safer cars, great fan interest, incredible promotion, buckets of cash, and good drivers but not much racing. F1 is headed down the same path that killed the Can Am - beakers love technology but fans love racing. So far the FIA has done a fabulous job of brain-washing people that F1 in its current state is really racing; however, many fans are noticing a distinct lack of apparel on the Emperor Eccelestone and starting to muse about passing and other neat stuff as something routine versus being the exception.

Do away with the shifter karts and make the drivers work again. McLaren, Ferrari, Jordan, Williams, and all the Usual Suspects will still be where they, but at least as entertainment it will be a better show. And let us not kid or delude ourselves, except in the rarest of cases racing is Entertainment with Science & Technology thrown in as a placebo like in some carney midway medicine show.

I think that the Schmachers, Frentzen, Hakinnen, and the others would still do a great job, they would figure it out. If nothing else it would add some needed seasoning to the package. The current F1 isn't bad, it just isn't what it could be. I don't dislike it, I am just disappointed.

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

[Ray Bell]

Sounds like there are a lot of people who would like to take a drive around Lobethal. You are probably not aware, either, that Albert Park has been emaciated between the 1956 and 1996 Australian Grands Prix. When Moss won in 1956 it very much rewarded the brave ones, but safety was a non-issue.
What I am more disappointed with is the lack of visibility at any of them - except where there are hills etc as at Spa and in Austria.
Lobethal, by the way, was used for the Australian Grand Prix of 1939, was the same length as Spa and the lap record was 5:40 by Alf Barrett and his Alfa Monza. Nearest to him was Frank Kleinig's Hudson Special. How does that compare to the old Spa? I'm telling you, the road didn't!

Visit Adelaide and have a look, racing ceased there in 1948, but the road's just the same.

[Don Capps]

A great fascination of mine is the old tracks from past. While stationed at Fort Stewart, which is just out Savannah, Georgia, I used my book on the American Grand Prize races of 1908, 1910 & 1911 to find what I could of the old circuits. I was able to trace the circuits and it was remarkable to realize that I actually had driven many miles over roads used in the racrs and never realized it.

Someday, perhaps there will a book that will compile all these old courses into a songle reference. One of my favorite parts of Motor sport is when they visit the old race circuits. Not long ago I was in LA and ran out to where the Riverside circuit used to be.

I am sure that I have seen a circuit map of Lobethal but it isn't coming up in my brain for some reason.



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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

[Fast One]

Funny you should mention that Don. When my stellar career as a Petty Muscovite Beaurocrat is over, I want to write a book about the early road courses in the US. I wish I had time now to work on it, because by then, most of the people who remember them will be gone.

[Dennis David]

I received an email a while back from a person who is writing a book about some of the old circuits but unfortunatly comercial constraints forces him to leave out many of the older classic pre-war tracks.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Don Capps]

DD,
There it is in a nutshell, the problem with doing anything in the print medium: the costs for the most part have risen to nosebleed levels in the past decade. The last time we did a book in any of my offices, just doing it through the Gov't Printing Office made you blink.

There is a ton of data that has been dug up, but due to "commercial interests" sits around since it can't fit into the parameters of a printed book. There are obviously some folks who can spend hundreds of $$$ for some of these specialty books, but not that many. I have a time or two, but can't consider it more than once in a great, great while.

Imagine the Leif Snelman site in print! And with all the pictures, etc., that would flesh it out way beyond the Chris Nixon book. It would run $200+ easily.

I am sure a book on the circuits with lots of maps and photos would be pretty hefty to produce.

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps


[This message has been edited by Don Capps (edited 12-10-1999).]

[Psychoman]

Question--what's the Leif Snelman site?

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"If ignorance is bliss, then knock the smile off my face."
-Zack de la Rocha

[Don Capps]

Try this to get there:

http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Ray Bell]

Here in Australia we fortunately do have a book which gives details of all the circuits used for road racing. Well, a couple have been left out for reasons of logic that dictated what would be in and what would not. However, we also have a magazine that carries a story each issue about one of the disused circuits, which I am privileged to write (in most cases) and which deals with how they came into being, what happened there, what they were like and what happened to them in the end. There is no end of fascination in this.
Longford, readers of English Motor Sport will know, was the scene of Phil Hill's most memorable race. In 1965, for his final open wheeler race, he saw some of it as reminiscent of the old Elkhart Lake of 1950 or thereabouts, which is a fascinating thought.
Lobethal, however, can only be seen from any map, any series of photos, any movie. One has to drive around it. End of story. Like the original Spa, or the Nurburgring. We need to keep these old circuits in our mind, if only to keep a perspective of old cars and how they were raced.
What is a 300SLR without the Short Madonie circuit or the Mille Miglia?

[Joe Fan]

Don, we are too much alike. If I had time on my hands and if I was in Savannah, that would be the first thing I would do is try to find where that track was. When I went to Atlanta for the NASCAR race last month, the thought of driving to Savannah for that very reason entered my mind.

I live in the Kansas City area and there was a 1/4-mile track where A.J. Foyt won his very first sprint car race ever. Today, it is a salvage yard and it sits right off the highway. Every time I drive by there I think of that track and how it would be neat to go back into time to see the first A.J. Foyt win in his career.

Also, there were AAA IndyCar races held in Kansas City between 1922-24 where legendary drivers like Tommy Milton and Jimmy Murphy won at. I would like to find out more where this track was in my area so if you can supply me with some information, I would be delighted.

Also I found some excellent historical information on the oldest race track still in existence in the world today, The Milwaukee Mile. You can read about it by clicking here: www.milwaukeemile.com/hist.htm

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 12-12-1999).]

[Don Capps]

Ray,

This is pretty neat what you get to do ref the circuits. I remember reading all about Longford in the 1960's and the race that Phil Hill drove in 1965. Also, I remember Longford in 1964 when Tim Mayer - Teddy Mayer's brother - was killed during practice. Were there in I guess it was 1968 or 1969 when Piers Courage did such an incredible job in the rain?

When I was in Australia, I managed to get to Warwick Farm, but that was it. One of the SAS blokes I knew arranged for a mid-week visit. It was pretty neat.



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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Ray Bell]

I'm afraid my only visits to Longford for races were 1965 & 1966 (I might post some photos some time, they're slides, so I can't scan them myself).
When Courage won it was very much a case of the right car and the right tyres, more so the tyres (tires?). That day there were saboteurs trying to burn down the Longford Bridge and at the Drivers' briefing they tried to stop the race from happening because of the patent danger.
It was Pedro Rodriguez who decided it would be on as Clark and Amon sat in a corner. Refer to DSJ's remarks about them in connection with the (also wet) 1968 French GP...
Warwick Farm has some wonderful memories for me, it was a real drivers' circuit, I flagged there for five or six years and saw every meeting from late '62 to the end in '73.

[Rediscoveryx]

I dug up this neat little thread ;)

To me it would be better if Hockenheim was dropped all together, just as it would have been better if the Nürburgring hadn't been "reconfigured" (or mutilated) to fit the current safety standards. And while I can accept the fact that racing on the Nordschleife with F1 cars is to dangerous, Hockenheim is being cut down because of the almighty $, and that isn't acceptable.

And by the way, why did they have to change the layout of the Österreichring to the A1 Ring? Would it have been so terrible to keep the old layout and just add twenty yards of runoff area?

I just had to vent my frustration...

[buzard]

The tracks are a good portion of what is missing now but not entirely. Part of it is also
the cars and even the attitude of the "business of F1". I think it was Lauda that said
he remembered Zandvoort when there were straights between the corners. As cars
got faster the straights seemed to vanish. And at the same time braking zones dropped
to only 30% of what they were before. As a result about 60% of the passing points on
any circuit vanished. And with it compition.

So how do you solve the problem? New tracks.........but as we know that did not
change the source of the problem.

buzard

[Barry Boor]

A guy I know named Ron Ball has asked me to put these Longford images up on this thread. Their location can be assumed from the URL of each picture.


I believe they refer to an earlier post on this thread.

[fines]

Good to see Ron's still reading these posts!

Hi, Mr. Ball!

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
I hesitate to become patriotic but the reshaped Zandvoort track would be a fine addition to the calendar. It has kept the long main straight and Tarzan, the Hugenholtzbocht is still there, and the run up to the daunting Scheivlak righthander, which is the core of the old circuit. The new infield section is interesting in a Sepang sort of way if a bit twiddly at parts - never enough room in Holland - but the good part is they have also kept the run-off areas too small, in fine Zandvoort tradition I might add...

I love the new Zandvoort in GP3 - I play it all the time with the 1985 carset - sweet!

[fines]

Btw, it's now more than half a year that we have to make do without R. B.'s entertaining and informative posts. He's certainly served his sentence!

Can we have him back, please?

[Walrus]

I think this goes well here, about what we have wrong in today`s cars, Rindt`s opinion:

This is an open letter to all people who are, interested in Formula 1.racing. I want to demonstrate a few points about the aerofoils which at the moment are used on most of the Fl cars, in order to convince the so-called experts that they should be banned.

Basically I have two reasons why I am against them:
1. Wings have nothing to do with a motor car. They are Completely out of place and will never be used on a road-going production car. Please note, I mean wings and not spoilers which are incorporated into the bodywork. You can say they bring colour to racing, and I cannot argue against that; but after all Fl racing is meant to be a serious business and not a hot rod show.
2. Wings are dangerous, first to the driver, secondly to the spectators.

When wings were first introduced to Fl racing at Spa last year they were tiny spoilers at the front and back of the Ferraris and Brabhams. They had very little effect except at high speed when they were working as a sort of stabiliser. This was a very good effect and nobody thought any more about it until Lotus arrived for the French GP at Rouen a month later with the first proper wing. Suddenly everybody got the message about what could be done with the help of the air; but unfortunately nobody directly concerned gave much thought to what could happen if the wings went wrong, and what effect they would have on racing.

First of all, it is very difficult to design a wing which is going to stand up to all the stresses, because who knows how big the forces are. If. you make the wing stronger, it is going to be heavier and therefore produce bigger forces on the construction; you make it lighter and it all goes the opposite way. This is not my wisdom, it all comes from one of the most successful racing car designers. Nevertheless I am sure that after some tiine-and a few more accidents because of wing failure -this problem could be solved.

Now some personal experience gained by racing with the wing:
The wing obviously works via the airflow over it, and this situation changes rapidly if you happen to follow another competitor; he has the full use of the wing and you yourself have to out up with the turbulence created by his car. This could mean that the man in front is actually going slower than you, but you cannot pass him because ' after getting near to him, your wings stop working and you cannot go so quickly. This fact spoils racing to quite a large extent. On the other hand the turbulence can be so great that your car starts behaving very strangely and completely unpredictably.

This, I think, explains Oliver's accident at Rouen last year, and I personally have been in similar trouble very often, but luckily I have always managed so far. You will understand that these two facts stop close racing, which is one of the most exciting things to watch. Therefore it is in the interest of the spectators and the drivers to ban wings.

Let us have a look at the wing if something goes wrong with it. And they do go wrong quite often, but so far nobody has been severely hurt. My accident in the Spanish GP has been the biggest one so far and, through a lot of luck and the safety precautions taken by the Spanish organisers, nothing serious happened. Naturally I will always be grateful to the Automobile Club of Barcelona for lining the circuit with double guardrails and for providing such efficient marshals.

To explain the reason for my accident, I was happily driving round the fastest bend on the track when my wing broke and changed its downthrust into reverse. The back end of my car started flying, and I nearly flew over the double guardrail on the left side of the track. Fortunately I was flying about 10 inches too low and got bounced back into the road. I have got a picture to prove it . Can you imagine what would have happened if the car had flown into the crowd? By next year we will probably have wings big enough to do so, and all the owners of the circuits will have to think about new crowd protection. You can also get lift instead of down-pressure if you spin the car at high enough speed and start going backwards.

Altogether I have come to the conclusion that wings are very dangerous, and should therefore be banned.

Begnins, SWITZERLAND. JOCHEN RINDT.

[Falcadore]

Recall all, the great endurance races of Motor Racing. The races that were fabled and valued by drivers over the years outside of Formula One. The Indy 500, 24 Heurs du Mans, Monza 1000, Mille Miglia, Targa Florio, Nurburgring 1000, Bathurst 1000, Sebring 12 Hour, Spa 24 Hour etc....

What have they got in common? Great circuits. Circuits of majesty and fear and a sense of granduer. Out in the mists of the Eifel, across the crest of McPhillamy, down the never ending Mulsanne, climbing past Blanchimont, screaming back towards La Source, flashing across the bricks......

To quote Mark Skaife on comparing the corporatised and extremely well organised Adelaide street race, and Bathurst..

"We all thought Adelaide was the best but we came back here and wow, it is Bathurst."

well I think that's what he said.....