116 replies to this topic

[cartman]

Yesterday we learned that there was in fact no pre-contract with Ferrari. The deal has been done one year ago.

Buy just some weeks ago, Renault were talking with Kimi to joint them in 2007. What was the point of that? To waste other teams' time?

[Leyser]

Michael Schumacher.

He needed to make up his mind without any more pressure. He deserved that after all he's done for Ferrari. There are similar directions of thought for Massa, but he's far less important in the general scheme of things.

[Julli]

Originally posted by cartman
Yesterday we learned that there was in fact no pre-contract with Ferrari. The deal has been done one year ago.

Buy just some weeks ago, Renault were talking with Kimi to joint them in 2007. What was the point of that? To waste other teams' time?

To fool McLaren, that they still has the possibility to get him. Thus they showed every new innovation to KR(and hope that it would lure KR to signing with them) and now KR will take the info of the next year car to Ferrari. I would be suprised to see KR to test for McLaren this season (or Alonso for Renault for that matter). If they had told early this year the contract how do you think they would have treated KR?

Some bad examples of drivers who have been replaced after the annoucement. Trulli, Heidfeld, Montoya.

Julli

[peroa]

Originally posted by Julli


To fool McLaren, that they still has the possibility to get him. Thus they showed every new innovation to KR(and hope that it would lure KR to signing with them) and now KR will take the info of the next year car to Ferrari. I would be suprised to see KR to test for McLaren this season (or Alonso for Renault for that matter). If they had told early this year the contract how do you think they would have treated KR?

Some bad examples of drivers who have been replaced after the annoucement. Trulli, Heidfeld, Montoya.

Julli

I think that Tombazis has enough inside info for that matter.

[lordy]

Remember also the teams have to keep their sponsors happy.

For example, Johnny Walker would have signed for McLaren expecting to get some mileage out of KR and JPM.

Any PR events they attended would have been a bit sour if it was confirmed that KR was soon to move to car he thinks will give him a beter chance at the WDC.

[speedy]

I think the whole affair was handled professionally and well.

[random]

Originally posted by cartman
Yesterday we learned that there was in fact no pre-contract with Ferrari. The deal has been done one year ago.

Buy just some weeks ago, Renault were talking with Kimi to joint them in 2007. What was the point of that? To waste other teams' time?

The answer is Clauses and Semantics.

Raikkonen's contract with Ferrari almost certainly had one or more clauses that would come into direct conflict with similar clauses in Schumacher's contract. As for pre-contracts and full contracts, a full contract can serve the purpose of both.

Minimally, Raikkonen's contract mandates he receive equal treatment within the team. Since Schumacher's contract with Ferrari grants him sole number 1 status, Ferrari could not uphold both contracts at the same time. Truth is, there could have been many other mutually-exclusive clauses in either Schumacher's or Raikkonen's contracts which would have kept Ferrari from signing them both.

In fact, had I been Kimi's manager I would never have allowed him to team with Schumacher at Ferrari. Not because I believe Schumacher is faster than Kimi. It's simply that Schumacher has so thoroughly ingrained himself within the team there would be almost no way for any other driver to receive equal treatment no matter what the contracts say.

Taking that into account, it's not outside the realm of possibilities that Kimi's contract had a simple clause which voided the agreement if Schumacher did not retire. This is where the "semantics" come in. Because if the contract specified that Raikkonen must be informed of this pending retirement before a certain date (e.g. August 8th), then this whole pre-contract business starts makes a lot of sense. That simple clause could effect exactly the same result as a pre-contract.

Don't for a minute think Renault and Raikkonen were negotiating just for the hell of it. Raikkonen's contract had an opening, and that opening was almost certainly Schumacher's retirement decision.

[HansMoleman]

Originally posted by cartman
Yesterday we learned that there was in fact no pre-contract with Ferrari. The deal has been done one year ago.

Buy just some weeks ago, Renault were talking with Kimi to joint them in 2007. What was the point of that? To waste other teams' time?

Exactly, if it would have been announced earlier, Mac and Renault would have had more time to get another driver instead. Now they had to wait for Kimi to "make up his mind", and in the same time all the other free drivers got jobs at other teams.

The result: both Renault and McLaren will have to settle for a rookie driver. When was it last when two of the top teams had rookie drivers in F1?

Great strategy from Ferrari, I must say. Not a display of very good sportsmanship, though.

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by random

Minimally, Raikkonen's contract mandates he receive equal treatment within the team. Since Schumacher's contract with Ferrari grants him sole number 1 status, Ferrari could not uphold both contracts at the same time. Truth is, there could have been many other mutually-exclusive clauses in either Schumacher's or Raikkonen's contracts which would have kept Ferrari from signing them both.

I'm with you in this, except that Schumacher had no contract for 2007. The one he had ends this year, so Schumacher's contract could have been simply rewritten, what comes to the very likely number 1 status clauses, for Ferrari to employ them both.

[HansMoleman]

Originally posted by Leyser
Michael Schumacher.

He needed to make up his mind without any more pressure. He deserved that after all he's done for Ferrari. There are similar directions of thought for Massa, but he's far less important in the general scheme of things.

What Michael said at the press conference doesn't support that. Michael said a) he had known for a long time who will be Ferrari's new driver and b) he wanted to decide his future before Massa had to decides his.

This implies Kimi was coming to Ferrari whether Michael was going to retire or not. Only Massa's future was uncertain.

[bira]

Originally posted by HansMoleman


What Michael said at the press conference doesn't support that. Michael said a) he had known for a long time who will be Ferrari's new driver and b) he wanted to decide his future before Massa had to decides his.

This implies Kimi was coming to Ferrari whether Michael was going to retire or not. Only Massa's future was uncertain.

Further supported by what Luca di Montezemolo said yesterday: "Michael has known for many many months, or I should say for one year, that the choice was to partner him with [Kimi] Raikkonen. We obviously spoke to him like we did when it was time to choose other drivers because the team must agree on things."

[random]

Originally posted by Big Block 8
I'm with you in this, except that Schumacher had no contract for 2007. The one he had ends this year, so Schumacher's contract could have been simply rewritten, what comes to the very likely number 1 status clauses, for Ferrari to employ them both.

I think it's highly unlikely that Schumacher would have accepted a reduction in status. And as I point out above, that may not have been the only contractul problem making a pairing of Raikkonen and Schumacher contractually impossible.

Personally, I think Raikkonen's management would have been fools to let him team with Schumacher at Ferrari. Schumacher was simply too ingrained within the structure of the team. No piece of paper was going to take away his number one status.

The simple fact that Renault were recently negotiating with Raikkonen tells me that there was definitely a clause in Raikkonen's contract which allowed him out of the deal if Schumacher stayed.

[jokuvaan]

Yep Kimi's manager says also that Kimi was coming into Ferrari, MS or not, with written equal status AND number 1 driver position. (what ever that means)

[random]

Originally posted by HansMoleman
What Michael said at the press conference doesn't support that. Michael said a) he had known for a long time who will be Ferrari's new driver and b) he wanted to decide his future before Massa had to decides his.

This implies Kimi was coming to Ferrari whether Michael was going to retire or not. Only Massa's future was uncertain.

While Michael's comments may "technically" be true, I don't think they tell a full or accurate story regarding Kimi's status.

This because Raikkonen's recent negotiations with Renault indicate that Kimi was not contractually bound to drive for Ferrari if Schumacher remained. My personal opinion is that neither Schumacher nor Raikkonen wanted to partner the other.
So had Schumacher chosen to remain at Ferrari, he would almost certainly have driven along side Massa, with Raikkonen going to Renault.

[Dalton007]

In fact, had I been Kimi's manager I would never have allowed him to team with Schumacher at Ferrari. Not because I believe Schumacher is faster than Kimi. It's simply that Schumacher has so thoroughly ingrained himself within the team there would be almost no way for any other driver to receive equal treatment no matter what the contracts say.

Well, I would have allowed Kimi to join alongside Michael. By the looks of it, Ferrari were looking to the future and judging by Massa's drives of late, I don't think Kimi would have had a problem driving alongside Michael.

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by random

I think it's highly unlikely that Schumacher would have accepted a reduction in status. And as I point out above, that may not have been the only contractul problem making a pairing of Raikkonen and Schumacher contractually impossible.

Semantics on my behalf maybe, but it wouldn't IMO been "contractually impossible", merely dependent on Schumacher's decision in accepting the offered contract, very probably less favourable as it had used to be.

Originally posted by random
Personally, I think Raikkonen's management would have been fools to let him team with Schumacher at Ferrari. Schumacher was simply too ingrained within the structure of the team. No piece of paper was going to take away his number one status.

In some "atmospherical" ways that might be yes, but when it comes down to some crucial decisions, for example of pursuing some design line instead of the other, or choosing the race strategies, that piece of paper might have well have done it's job.

Originally posted by random
The simple fact that Renault were recently negotiating with Raikkonen tells me that there was definitely a clause in Raikkonen's contract which allowed him out of the deal if Schumacher stayed.

I don't think so, as otherwise we wouldn't have that comment from di Montezemolo, that Bira posted.

Further supported by what Luca di Montezemolo said yesterday: "Michael has known for many many months, or I should say for one year, that the choice was to partner him with [Kimi] Raikkonen. We obviously spoke to him like we did when it was time to choose other drivers because the team must agree on things."

Seems like Kimi's contract was (is) very solid.

[gerry nassar]

Originally posted by random


The answer is Clauses and Semantics.

Raikkonen's contract with Ferrari almost certainly had one or more clauses that would come into direct conflict with similar clauses in Schumacher's contract. As for pre-contracts and full contracts, a full contract can serve the purpose of both.

Minimally, Raikkonen's contract mandates he receive equal treatment within the team. Since Schumacher's contract with Ferrari grants him sole number 1 status, Ferrari could not uphold both contracts at the same time. Truth is, there could have been many other mutually-exclusive clauses in either Schumacher's or Raikkonen's contracts which would have kept Ferrari from signing them both.

In fact, had I been Kimi's manager I would never have allowed him to team with Schumacher at Ferrari. Not because I believe Schumacher is faster than Kimi. It's simply that Schumacher has so thoroughly ingrained himself within the team there would be almost no way for any other driver to receive equal treatment no matter what the contracts say.

Taking that into account, it's not outside the realm of possibilities that Kimi's contract had a simple clause which voided the agreement if Schumacher did not retire. This is where the "semantics" come in. Because if the contract specified that Raikkonen must be informed of this pending retirement before a certain date (e.g. August 8th), then this whole pre-contract business starts makes a lot of sense. That simple clause could effect exactly the same result as a pre-contract.

Don't for a minute think Renault and Raikkonen were negotiating just for the hell of it. Raikkonen's contract had an opening, and that opening was almost certainly Schumacher's retirement decision.

Perfectly said. Nothing was final until Schumacher's decision. Though I do think Kimi could have beaten MS more often than not.

[Oho]

Originally posted by Julli


To fool McLaren, that they still has the possibility to get him.

The chances are Ronzo knew about the Ferrari deal the day it was made, anything else would have been too dishonest and very detrimental indeed not only for Räikkönen but especially for Robertsons.

The likely fact is drivers really do not know what makes their cars tick. They have innate ability to drive it but the chances are they really do not know how they do it and the way I see it is in the car they dont even have time to think about how to do it, they just do it.

[man from martinlaakso]

Ferrari decided this to fool McLaren and Renault, in which this team succeeded. Both these team were using a lot of time and energy to get KR, which was impossible (but they did not know it, and KR did not tell them). Ron Dennis smelled this already in 2005 and that was one of the reasons why he hired FA.

As far as I know, there was no special exit clause in this contract for the case, that MS would continue in Ferrari. KR was coming to Ferrari anyweay, despite what MS would do or not do. MS migt have tried to influenece the Ferrari leaders so, that he and Massa would be team mates in 2007 and KR would not join Ferrar in 2007. This idea was killed by Montezemolo, and so Michael had a possibility to retire or to continue as a team mate of KR with equal terms. He did not want to take a risk, and perhaps also family reasons had something to do with his retirement decision. The decison to retire was Michael's idea, not KR's.

[Oho]

Originally posted by gerry nassar


Perfectly said. Nothing was final until Schumacher's decision. Though I do think Kimi could have beaten MS more often than not.

Quite frankly I think the chances are Schumachers contract as far as driver status is concerned were almost identically worded to his team mates contracts. But that really is of no importance to Schumacher's de facto status within the Ferrari team.

[HansMoleman]

Originally posted by random
This because Raikkonen's recent negotiations with Renault indicate that Kimi was not contractually bound to drive for Ferrari if Schumacher remained.

...or Ferrari had NDA in the contract so that Kimi wouldn't reveal it before 9/10. Ferrari might have even endorsed Kimi to imply his interest in signing with Renault or Mac so that they would keep a seat vacant (see my earlier post). This would explain Kimi's reluctance to reveal the time he signed with Ferrari.

[random]

Originally posted by Big Block 8
I don't think so, as otherwise we wouldn't have that comment from di Montezemolo, that Bira posted.

Montezemlo's comments only tell us what he told Michael. They do not rule out (or even address) exit clauses in Raikkonen's contract.

There's absolutely no reason to expect Michael or his management would have any specific knowledge of the terms and conditions of Raikkonen's contract. Neither would Ferrari be required or even expected reveal such things to Schumacher.

Bottom line; I simply cannot believe that Renault and Raikkonen's management were negotiating just for giggles. The evidence that Kimi's contract was recently open is further supported by Norbert Haug's comment last month that Raikkonen had personally assured him he was not yet signed.

I believe there had to be an opening in Raikkonen's contract with Ferrari. And the only opening that makes sense was that of Schumacher's retirement decision.

[HansMoleman]

Originally posted by Oho


The chances are Ronzo knew about the Ferrari deal the day it was made, anything else would have been too dishonest and very detrimental indeed not only for Räikkönen but especially for Robertsons.

The likely fact is drivers really do not know what makes their cars tick. They have innate ability to drive it but the chances are they really do not know how they do it and the way I see it is in the car they dont even have time to think about how to do it, they just do it.

Then why didn't McLaren sign anybody earlier? Hamilton is hardly a first choice for race driver, normally a driver like he would be signed to smaller F1 team or as a test driver in bigger F1 team.

Why didn't Ron hint that Kimi is on his way?

EDIT: Why didn't neither McLaren or Renault sign Webber?

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by random
Montezemlo's comments only tell us what he told Michael. They do not rule out (or even address) exit clauses in Raikkonen's contract.

Well, that would mean he was in effect blowing smoke on Michael. What would have happened, if MS had decided to stay and KR would have had a "rabbit" clause in his contract and KR would have used it? di M would have looked like a dick and I doubt a guy like that wants to look that way.

Originally posted by random
Bottom line; I simply cannot believe that Renault and Raikkonen's management were negotiating just for giggles. The evidence that Kimi's contract was recently open is further supported by Norbert Haug's comment last month that Raikkonen had personally assured him he was not yet signed.

I believe there had to be an opening in Raikkonen's contract with Ferrari. And the only opening that makes sense was that of Schumacher's retirement decision.

There's nothing stange in looking at offers from other employers, while already having a contract, even more so, if the existing contract is wanted to be kept secret. Refusing to negotiate is a sign for the others that another contract is in effect. Even despite Haug's comment, I don't think there was any loopholes in KR's contract, at least not related to MS's decision.

[man from martinlaakso]

Random, keep in mind that even a sealed contracts may be broken, if there is enough money. KR knew, that MS tried to get Ferrari leaders acceptance to a MS-FM pairing. He just could not be absolutely sure, that Michael would not succeed. If Ferrari would have broken t's contract with KR, Kimi would have got millions of dollars as a compensation, but where would he have driven in 2007 ? KR had to insure his future for the scenario, where Ferrari would not be an option anymore. According to Kimi himself, the only realistic option would have been Mac. So I suppose, that the negotiations with Renault were just a camouflage.

[HansMoleman]

Originally posted by Big Block 8
There's nothing stange in looking at offers from other employers, while already having a contract, even more so, if the existing contract is wanted to be kept secret. Refusing to negotiate is a sign for the others that another contract is in effect. Even despite Haug's comment, I don't think there was any loopholes in KR's contract, at least not related to MS's decision.

Exactly. And if Ferrari didn't want to announce their drivers before certain time, as was the case, it would be normal practice in any business to get anyone involved to sign an NDA. And so we go back to the question in the topic: why did they keep the contract a secret?

Michael had nothing to do with it, as Kimi had been signed anyways. So I'm quessing it was to keep competing teams from getting competent drivers.

[random]

Originally posted by man from martinlaakso
Ferrari decided this to fool McLaren and Renault, in which this team succeeded. Both these team were using a lot of time and energy to get KR, which was impossible (but they did not know it, and KR did not tell them). Ron Dennis smelled this already in 2005 and that was one of the reasons why he hired FA.

There've been a few suggestions that Kimi's management negotiated with Renault and McLaren in bad faith as a "camouflage" or to "fool" McLaren and Renault.

Nope, I can't believe that for an instant. It's just not how the business works. The athlete management business is based on reputation. It's almost impossible for me to believe a driver management company would agree to participate in such a deception. (and if such a deception were to be undertaken, the driver management company would HAVE to be a party to it.)

The reason no driver management company would agree to such is thing is that the instant the deception was found out, the deceived companies would never deal with the athlete management company again.

"No big deal"? you say, "Raikkonen has his agreement". Well, most sports management organizations have a lot more than one client athlete. Athletic careers are short, management companies need to keep fresh talent coming through the system. Were a management company to burn McLaren, Mercedes, and Renault, they could close countless doors in any number of driving series to any of their driving clients. Raikkonen may not lose out by such a subterfuge, but the management company would.

Furthermore, neither Raikkonen nor the management company would gain anything by falsely negotiating with McLaren and Renault. It just doesn't make any sense that Raikkonen or his management would undertake or even agree to such a wild scheme.

The theory I've posted above regarding Raikkonen's contract having a Schumacher-retirement clause easily fits the available evidence and facts. It especially fits the fact that Renault was negotiating with Raikkonen and also that Renault claimed to have come very close to a deal.

But this theory that Raikkonen was 100% committed to Ferrari, that Raikkonen's contract had no out-clause, it just doesn't easily fit the evidence. The Renault negotiations are a major fact in this. That glaring bit of evidence cannot just be pushed aside with highly unlikely claims that the negotiations were a deception.

[random]

Originally posted by man from martinlaakso
Random, keep in mind that even a sealed contracts may be broken, if there is enough money. KR knew, that MS tried to get Ferrari leaders acceptance to a MS-FM pairing. He just could not be absolutely sure, that Michael would not succeed. If Ferrari would have broken t's contract with KR, Kimi would have got millions of dollars as a compensation, but where would he have driven in 2007 ? KR had to insure his future for the scenario, where Ferrari would not be an option anymore. According to Kimi himself, the only realistic option would have been Mac. So I suppose, that the negotiations with Renault were just a camouflage.

That doesn't explain Briatore's claim that he came very close to signing Raikkonen. Because if Raikkonen's contract had no out-clause, Briatore could never have been anywhere "close" to actually signing him.

I tend to believe the rumored August 8th deadline was factual. That if Ferrari had not made Schumacher's intentions known to Raikkonen by that date, Raikkonen could have signed elsewhere.

I also think it's no coincidence that both Montezemelo's and Schumacher's comments put his decision date at just before that rumored August 8th deadline.

[jokuvaan]

Kimi's managers visited also Toyota's F1 factory during past summer.

[Mauseri]

To have Michael say his decision first and not look like he will run away due Kimi.

[Julli]

Originally posted by peroa



I think that Tombazis has enough inside info for that matter.

I believe that Tombazis has been excluded on next year's car. As KR said, that he will go to the team which will provide him with a best car. So I firmly believe that McLaren has told him what new they will have in attempt to lure KR on joining.

OHO,

Drivers has to know the basics of the buttons they have in their steering wheel or what the additional pedal does. That way they know how to extract the maximum of their cars. And drivers do tell what different buttons and options they had in their old cars, and then the engineers make them happend if they don't have similar systems ideas in their cars.

Julli

[Spunout]

This because Raikkonen's recent negotiations with Renault indicate that Kimi was not contractually bound to drive for Ferrari if Schumacher remained. My personal opinion is that neither Schumacher nor Raikkonen wanted to partner the other.

Why does it have to be "if Schumacher remained"? Nothing suggests that. Not to mention we don´t really know about the nature of Renault negotiations.

[man from martinlaakso]

Random, I believe, that KR and his mangers had negotiated three contracts. One was with Ferrari and it came true. Thiee two others were with Mac and Renault, but they did not have Kimi's signature. According to Kimi himself yeasterday the only real option for Ferrari was Mac. I think, that one could interpret this so, that the Mac contract was an insurance against Ferari pulling out of it's contract and Renault contract was an insurance against both previous contracts being failed. Complicatd, yes. But you see, KR is on top of his driving. Now was the time to get the best car and win at least one WDC title. Everything must be secured, so that Kimi would not be left with a heap of money but no good ride.

[Oho]

Originally posted by Julli



OHO,

Drivers has to know the basics of the buttons they have in their steering wheel or what the additional pedal does.

Julli

Any receptionist knows that pressing a button in computer keybord echos a charatcter on the telly, but its a far cry from understanding how that charcter actually gets echoed on the screen. Hell I have a PhD in related field of technology and only have cursory understanding of how computers work, what makes them tick.

[Oho]

Originally posted by HansMoleman


Then why didn't McLaren sign anybody earlier? Hamilton is hardly a first choice for race driver, normally a driver like he would be signed to smaller F1 team or as a test driver in bigger F1 team.

Why didn't Ron hint that Kimi is on his way?

EDIT: Why didn't neither McLaren or Renault sign Webber?

I dont know perhaps they dont think Webber is worth the trouble.

As far as McLaren is concerned I'd be absolutely amazed if Ronzo was not kept up to date with Räikkönen's contractual situation once a deal was signed, I'd consider it a major professional foul on part of Räikkönen's management.

Its one thing to know and another to accept the finality, chances are Ronzo knew of Räikkönen's imminent departure when he signed Alonso, but perhaps he just wanted to keep the other seat open just in case he was able to lure Räikkönen out of his deal and thus secure the services of the on the concensus opinion two best drivers on the grid once Schumacher was gone.

[random]

Originally posted by man from martinlaakso
Random, I believe, that KR and his mangers had negotiated three contracts. One was with Ferrari and it came true. Thiee two others were with Mac and Renault, but they did not have Kimi's signature. According to Kimi himself yeasterday the only real option for Ferrari was Mac. I think, that one could interpret this so, that the Mac contract was an insurance against Ferari pulling out of it's contract and Renault contract was an insurance against both previous contracts being failed. Complicatd, yes. But you see, KR is on top of his driving. Now was the time to get the best car and win at least one WDC title. Everything must be secured, so that Kimi would not be left with a heap of money but no good ride.

As I just pointed out, your theory falls flat when we take into account Briatore's claims that he came "very close" to signing Raikkonen. Renault simply could not have come in any way "close" to signing Raikkonen were your theory the accurate one. The only way Renault could have come "very close" to signing Raikkonen were if:

a. Kimi was not contractually locked into Ferrari
b. Kimi was "very close" to reaching a deadline-date in which he would no longer be contractually locked into Ferrari

Basically, you're tending to ignore some very important parts of the evidence in order to make your theory work. And there are a number of other facts that tend to disprove your theory.

Renault recently negotiated with Raikkonen
Renault claim to have come "very close" to signing Raikkonen
Norbert Haug at Mercedes claims Kimi personally assured him he was not locked into a contract as recently as last month
Kimi's management were also talking with Toyota and McLaren
Kimi himself had claimed as recently as last month he was not locked in.
If he was signed and locked in last year, why wasn't he announced until now? Especially if as Schumacher claims, Raikkonen was always a lock, it was Massa who was out if Schumi stayed.

There are also a few very-strong rumors that don't work well with your theory. Primary among these is the much reported August 8th deadline for Ferrari to take up their option for Kimi. This matches well with the fact that Schumacher and Montezemelo now say that Schumacher's decision was made just prior to that date.

You see, if (as I suspect) Kimi had a clause in his contract allowing him out,, all the above facts make sense. This is not the case with your theory. I don't doubt that part of the reason Kimi's management were talking with McLaren and Renault was a sort of "insurance policy". But I just as firmly believe Kimi was "close to" or was a free agent.

No, this has all the marks of a contractual clause allowing Kimi out of the deal. For better or worse, Schumacher's retirement decision seems to have run the show.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by random
The reason no driver management company would agree to such is thing is that the instant the deception was found out, the deceived companies would never deal with the athlete management company again.

You mean the way BAR refused to deal with Button anymnore after he shafted them with his Williams deal? That's a load of BS, athletes lie cheat and steal in their contract negotiations better than Donald Trump. I can garuntee you no matter what the hell Raikonnen did in 2006 if he was available in 2008 every top team in F1 would be wanking themselves to get him.

As far as his negotiations with Renault, like almost all reports of this matter this is probably far more the imagination of th epress than anything else. More likely he probably had lunch with them as a courtesy.

[Spunout]

As I just pointed out, your theory falls flat when we take into account Briatore's claims that he came "very close" to signing Raikkonen. Renault simply could not have come in any way "close" to signing Raikkonen were your theory the accurate one. The only way Renault could have come "very close" to signing Raikkonen were if:

a. Kimi was not contractually locked into Ferrari
b. Kimi was "very close" to reaching a deadline-date in which he would no longer be contractually locked into Ferrari

c. As usual in F1, Flav "coloured" the truth a little bit ;)

You know, "I am 99% sure I´ll have a seat for next year" = "it´s looking bad, IRL here I come..."

Renault claim to have come "very close" to signing Raikkonen

And Räikkönen himself says Ferrari and McLaren were the real options. Who´s lying?



Also, everything suggests negotiations with Renault and McLaren were practically over before Schumacher made his decision. I agree Räikkönen propably had `out´ clause or some kind of pre-contract, handshake between him and Todt or whatever. But nothing suggests it was all about Schumacher.

[kismet]

I'm sure that if Kimi really signed for Ferrari as early as last year, the contract will have included a selection of strategically placed out clauses. Remember, Ferrari were relatively speaking shite last year - there's abso-f***ing-lutely no way Kimi would've signed anything binding. He made that mistake once, he won't have done it again.

[man from martinlaakso]

Random, Briatore has indeed said, that Renault came very close of making a deal with KR. However, Kimi said yesterday in a Finnish interview, that the only real options were Ferrari and Mac. He did not even mention Renault. It is a question, who you believe : Briatore or Raeikkoenen ? I believe Kimi, although I know, that he has lied several times during this season. Norbert Haug told a few weeks ago, that Kimi had said, that he has not signed a contract with any team. However, according to Kimi the deal was done a long time ago. So Kimi has lied to Norbert and probably to many others, too. Some of these were his closest friends. So Kimi probably felt bad, but he had no choice. There was a paragraph in the Ferrari contract, which denied him to make this deal public.

I don't believe in an exit clause in Kimi's Ferrari contract, but it was natural, that Kimi & Robertson had to protect themselves against an option, where mighty Michael would have succeeded to sabotage this contract. MS has nothing against Kimi as a person, and Michael has nothing against Kimi being a Ferrari driver, but Kimi as a team mate with an equal status, no.

[Spunout]

It looks like we have third theory (from TS, translation by me)...

"All the talk about pre-contract belong to garbage bin. Kimi never was a pawn in a game or a back-up man for Schumacher. The contract was watertight from the beginning."

- Steve Robertson

I don´t know about this Renault "we were close of signing Räikkönen" thingy. As I recall, in one interview Flav told they opened discussions with Kimi but quickly found out he was tied to another team. It could well be McLaren and Räikkönen simply had mutual understanding of keeping his departure as secret.

[random]

Originally posted by tifosi
You mean the way BAR refused to deal with Button anymnore after he shafted them with his Williams deal? That's a load of BS, athletes lie cheat and steal in their contract negotiations better than Donald Trump.

And after that mess, what exactly happened to Button's management company? Ahhh, yes, they were sacked.

If you'd actually read my post, you'd see my point wasn't about what star athletes can get away with, it was what management companies would dare not do. Star athletes can get away with all kinds of crap, but their management companies cannot. This is especially true when it regards their management of non-star athletes.

If Raikkonen's management company had strung multiple teams along in bad faith negoiations with the sole intent of fooling those teams, that management company would be persona non grata to those companies and perhaps most of the paddock. Their reputation would be shot. They would have a difficult if not impossible time representing any other drivers in F1 and perhaps any sport in which those companies were involved.

So you see, it's not a load of BS. You've just got no idea what you're talking about...

[Spunout]

Well, Kimi´s manager must be the most hated man on paddock, then. Not only he negotiated with other teams, but also openly claimed Kimi´s contract was watertight from the beginning. If this isn´t career suicide, what is?

[Nói]

You see, if (as I suspect) Kimi had a clause in his contract allowing him out,, all the above facts make sense. This is not the case with your theory. I don't doubt that part of the reason Kimi's management were talking with McLaren and Renault was a sort of "insurance policy". But I just as firmly believe Kimi was "close to" or was a free agent.

In any case, good thinking, random. That makes the most logically coherent story I've read so far. I can't say I've paid attention to all the details but I find your account very appealing.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Oho

[..]
Its one thing to know and another to accept the finality, chances are Ronzo knew of Räikkönen's imminent departure when he signed Alonso, but perhaps he just wanted to keep the other seat open just in case he was able to lure Räikkönen out of his deal and thus secure the services of the on the concensus opinion two best drivers on the grid once Schumacher was gone.

Ron Dennis may be a cold-hearted bastard in how he deals with the outside world, but that's because F1 is business. He seems to be on very good terms with most of his drivers (possibly not with JPM though ) I doubt Kimi would have betrayed that trust.

[man from martinlaakso]

Random's theory might be coherent and logical, but it strikes against what Kimi and Robertson have said yesterday after the Ferrari announcements and in this case I think, that there is a big difference, what people have said before the Ferrari announcements and what after that. The later interviews are more reliable.

Some posters have claimed, that there must be several exit clauses in Kimi's contract and when we are talking about Ferrari's potential, then there indeed might be some clauses to protect Kimi from being sunk with Ferrari. When the contract was made in late 2005, Renault and Mac were on the top and Ferrari's success had been pretty modest. It would have been natural to claime, that Ferrari must rise near to the top, unless the deal would have been off. That makes sence. But that KR would have been pretty much a free agent in August 2006, that does not make sense. The stakes were too high.

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by Spunout
It looks like we have third theory (from TS, translation by me)...

"All the talk about pre-contract belong to garbage bin. Kimi never was a pawn in a game or a back-up man for Schumacher. The contract was watertight from the beginning."

- Steve Robertson

It goes well with di Montezemolo's comment, so it's probably true.

I recall Flavio commenting that in getting KR "they were a little bit late" - meaning Kimi had already signed with Ferrari. That could also be what his "very close" was about, just a simple matter of timing.

[Nói]

Originally posted by man from martinlaakso
Random's theory might be coherent and logical, but it strikes against what Kimi and Robertson have said yesterday after the Ferrari announcements and in this case I think, that there is a big difference, what people have said before the Ferrari announcements and what after that. The later interviews are more reliable.

May be so. But still, something’s not right here, something doesn’t add up in the big picture. It’s the intuition I have. I can’t believe that all the delaying and all the alleged negotiations were just an empty formality.

[xflow7]

My take on it is this.

All we know is that Kimi was apparently signed a year ago in a firm contract to replace Michael. However, nobody's said he was definitively signed to replace him in 2007. So there's a scenario where all the pieces fit which is that Kimi was signed to come to Ferrari when Michael retired and probably no later than some year (2008 maybe?)

In that case, KR would have needed to keep his options open for 2007 until Michael's announcement in case Michael stayed on another year.

It also may explain why Renault wasn't such a serious option for him. He'd have been there at most 2 years, more likely 1 which would have made it maybe difficult for both parties to justify the investment in "settling in time" that is inevitable when a driver goes to a new team after a long spell somewhere else.

However a 1 year extension at McLaren would have been alot more feasible since there would have been no lost time to acclimatization and it would have suited Ron's plans very well to have a short term, fast driver to tie him over until he was more comfortable putting Hamilton in the car.

Edit: Okay, the one thing that doesn't quite fit this is Michael's claim that he made his decision when he did so that Felipe could make his decisions.

[man from martinlaakso]

Nói, nobody claimes, that the negotiations which were held in August, would only have been a camouflage. But it was not dead sure, what Ferrari would do. Would it honour the contract with Kimi or would it try to pull out of it ? KR and Robertson had to take all possibilities into account. That explaines the multi-contracts and the many lies.