54 replies to this topic

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

As world champion and proved race winner, why didn't Williams retain him? Was he fired or did he jump ship himself?

[Garagiste]

Neither really - Williams had decided already not to renew his contract early - mid season.

[MikeTekRacing]

that means he was fired

[Beej]

Well it was almost fired. Hill went through a performance slump mid 96 to the point that Jvi had nearly overtaken Hill in points so Williams signed Frentzen after a very poor performance at Spa. I think this is what gave Hill the lift as to say I can show you, that gave him the WDC.

[fisssssi]

I never really understood Damon Hill. He wasn't the most natural driver of his time, but he was able to get the job done. I think Frentzen underperformed at Williams but even so, Damon was much more convincing than his replacement.

Damon was able to put himself into race winning positions in both 1998 and (unbelievably) in 1997. I almost cried when he slowed on the last lap in Hungary, that race was totally meant to be.

Although he had the best car in 1996, he was still a consistent race winner in that whole 1993-1996 period, something which few drivers can manage even in the best cars. At the start of 1997 he had just one less win than Michael Schumacher! (unfortunately now he has about 70 less wins)

I'm not a Damon fan by any means, but I think he is (and was) often underrated.

[Garagiste]

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
that means he was fired

You can insist on seeing it that way, but it's not strictly accurate - he was in the third year of a three year contract and had certainly let the pressure get to him in year 2.
He got the job done nicely in the end though, and I don't doubt that FW would have looked at re-signing him, but good old Frank likes to turn the screw and probably offered half the money.
DH, like NM before him, baulked at this and went elsewhere.

[lukywill]

hill lost the wdc in 95. that´s the reason they fired him end 96. he joined arrows for the good money. (10 mil?)

still good for him he beat j villeneuve at susuka 96.

[baddog]

He left because williams didnt really want to renew him and arrows offered a very fat pile of cash.

[tidytracks]

Plus the contractual sitaution at every other decent team was tied up for '97... he really had nowhere else to go. If you look at what Arrows managed to do with their budgest before their demise, Damon might actually have been onto something when he said that the team could go places after he visited Leafield before he signed... let's not forget that the A23 Arrows ended up making in their final season was actually a sodding good car. Had Damon stuck it out with them and the team managed to develop at the same rate as other teams, who knows what might have been - they almost won in Hungary in 1997, so the groundwork was clearly being made.

Perhaps he thought he could do a Schuey and take a team in the doldrums and pick them up? Perhaps it was the cash. Or perhaps he genuinely had nowhere else to go.

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by Beej
Well it was almost fired. Hill went through a performance slump mid 96 to the point that Jvi had nearly overtaken Hill in points so Williams signed Frentzen after a very poor performance at Spa. I think this is what gave Hill the lift as to say I can show you, that gave him the WDC.

I've read somewhere that the '95 season was of much more negative infuence on the decision: more experience in '95 than in '94 and throwing away so many races instead.

Teh following is a rumor I heard but one that is unconfirmed.
Also heard a rumour that by that time Frank already knew that Renault would quit after '97, Frank already negotiating with BMW for the future and to create some more interest hire a highly rated German driver other that MS to be apart of the team aleady to encourage BMW.

Henri

[mikedeering]

I thought Frentzen was effectively signed in the latter half of 1995, with a contract to start 1997 onwards.

Hill (and Coulthard to an extent) were a real comedy duo in 1995 and despite having the best car squandered it time after time. Hill crashed into Schumacher at Silverstone and Monza (the former leading to SFW describing him as a prat). He spun out on the 2nd lap at Hockenheim (although I think that was car influenced), at Spa MS humiliated him on dry tires in the wet, at Europe he spun off, at Suzuka he spun off. Basically Schumacher got into his head and poor Damon went to pieces as the year wore on.

This was in contrast to 1994 where Damon had probably overperformed against his team's expectations - particularly in Japan, where he beat MS. In the wet. At Suzuka! Similarly, in Adelaide it was MS that cracked and fell off the road, not Hill.

So mid 1995, Frank makes contact with HHF as Hill's replacement. He had always wanted Frentzen - he tried to sign him as replacement to Senna, but HHF wanted to remain at Sauber in the wake of Wendlinger's Monaco accident.

Hill over the winter of 1995-96 seemed to reinvent himself and started strongly in 1996, albeit with little competition except his own rookie teammate. It seemed maybe 1995 was a blip and he was really a front line driver. However, Hill then had another wobble and Villeneuve began to close on him. The wobble was probably related to the fact that in the background negotiations with Williams were going no where (since Frank already had HHF and JV for 97). At Spa it was finally confirmed to Damon that he would not be retained by Williams for 97 despite seemingly on his way to the title. Further mayhem ensued when Hill threw away a likely win at Monza when he clipped a tire barrier and spun out. Interestingly, MS went on to win the race, and late on clipped the same barrier as Hill but got away with it.

Few drives were available for Hill for 97. He looked at Jordan and Arrows/TWR, and eventually was sold on Walkinshaw's plans (and no doubt the large retainer) and went with them for 1997. At the time he felt Jordan did not have the technical depth of Arrows. He had a largely forgettable 1997 but of course so nearly won in Hungary - which would have been a first for Arrows, Yamaha and Bridgestone.

One thing I wish had occured - in 1997 Ron offered Hill a drive for 98 based on a low retainer and big bonuses for points etc (similar to Piquet at Benetton in 1990). Hill declined on the basis he felt he deserved a larger retainer - but in view of the speed of the 98 McLaren would have been interesting to see him race against Hakkinen and Schumacher. Depending on the outcome of course, Hill might have improved his reputation amongst F1 followers.

[Clatter]

Its wrong to say any driver was sacked just because they are not re-signed after reaching the end of their contract.

I always felt his relatively poor 95 was due to what happened at Aus94. It was as if he was driving angry all season.

I don't think he went to Arrows just because of the money. Almost every other seat was already taken and there no other real offers on the table. There was a possibility of a Mac drive, but I don't think he felt they really wanted him.

[DavidR]

Originally posted by fisssssi
At the start of 1997 he had just one less win than Michael Schumacher! (unfortunately now he has about 70 less wins)

And never had the potential to have a tally of wins that big.

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by Clatter
Its wrong to say any driver was sacked just because they are not re-signed after reaching the end of their contract.

I always felt his relatively poor 95 was due to what happened at Aus94. It was as if he was driving angry all season.

I don't think he went to Arrows just because of the money. Almost every other seat was already taken and there no other real offers on the table. There was a possibility of a Mac drive, but I don't think he felt they really wanted him.

The sacking is a perceptions issue isn't it? I'm sure had Frank offered a new contract comparable to the old one, Hill would have stayed. Hill needed Williams more than they needed him, so it's perceived he was sacked.

About Oz 94 - I don't know. Damon actually started out 95 really well - he would have won in Brazil if not for car failure, then won in Argentina and Imola. MS and Benetton were slow starters. As they speeded up, Hill seemed to crumble and lose all confidence - I think a lot of it was mental. Much like Senna's impact on Prost.

[wj_gibson]

I distinctly remember reading anonymous paddock sources as suggesting that Frentzen was signed for the 1997 season at Suzuka in 1995, partly because Williams was at that time convinced he was a "Schumacher-beater" in a way that Hill wasn't, but also as a sop to BMW in the very early days of contact between the two.

Arrows offered Hill a salary of $4.5m, less than that of some of the other mid-field teams that had offered him a drive (Stewart offered him at least $5.5m IIRC), although they also offered him unconditional no. 1 status which Hill had sought for some time without joy at Williams. But I think he was generally impressed by their then-new factory, which at that time was at least comparable with teams like Benetton and Jordan.

[Garagiste]

so nearly won in Hungary - which would have been a first for Arrows, Yamaha and Bridgestone.

One of the biggest "what ifs", IMO - if that car had just stayed good for another lap, the boost it would have given the team in terms of morale, finances etc. Who knows, they might even still be on the grid today. :

[Spunout]

At the time Hill made it clear money was huge factor - he even said every driver has two goals: winning the world championship and trying to get the biggest salary of all drivers. To him it wasn´t necessarily about money per se, rather about the team recognizing his value.

[Cheap Wine Alesi]

Money was the detrimental factor for sure, its a shame he didnt win the hungary race for Arrows, i always liked that team.

[Cheap Wine Alesi]

Originally posted by Spunout
At the time Hill made it clear money was huge factor - he even said every driver has two goals: winning the world championship and trying to get the biggest salary of all drivers. To him it wasn´t necessarily about money per se, rather about the team recognizing his value.

Didnt hill turn down the offer to join McLaren for 1998, which was no-salary but 1 million dollars per win?

[ralphrj]

Originally posted by Cheap Wine Alesi

Didnt hill turn down the offer to join McLaren for 1998, which was no-salary but 1 million dollars per win?

I think that McLaren's discussions with Hill were intended to persuade Hakkinen/Coulthard (I can't remember which of them was out of contract) to extend their contracts rather than a serious offer of a drive.

[jondon]

If memory serves, I believe Hill accepted the Arrows offer as it was for one year while other teams such as Jordan wanted him for two.

[WACKO]

Originally posted by Cheap Wine Alesi

Didnt hill turn down the offer to join McLaren for 1998, which was no-salary but 1 million dollars per win?

He was offered a performance related contract. Don't know about the figures, but he found it inappropriate and declined. It was probably the best thing he could have done to stay in the frame, especially since performing was almost impossible in the Arrows. Apart from the win in Spa, his time at Jordan wasn't very impressive. McLaren were definitely better off with Mika and David.

[WACKO]

Originally posted by jondon
If memory serves, I believe Hill accepted the Arrows offer as it was for one year while other teams such as Jordan wanted him for two.

Arrows more or less just offered the sums that Damon wanted to see and he believed Tom Walkinshaw's promises and plans. I think he knew that his role in 1997 was one in the margin, but he didn't bother since it also meant less pressure. And the pressure had been on him non-stop for years at Williams.

[FredF1]

Originally posted by wj_gibson
But I think he was generally impressed by their then-new factory, which at that time was at least comparable with teams like Benetton and Jordan.

I thought it was the opposite?

I'm sure I recall reading that Hill was impressed that Arrows manufactured a lot of their own components. Compared to Jordan which was a glorified body shop at the time with most parts being outsourced leading to problems with quality control.

Then EJ and B&H came a-courting for 1998 and made Hill an offer he couldn't refuse. Until 1999 when he probably wished he *had* refused.

[Paul Parker]

DH was along with many other drivers a victim of Schumacher's omnipotence but also the strangely self defeating and demoralising aspect of Williams man management.

I recall that on at least one occasion either DH or DC were shouted at just before a wet Japanese GP, just what you need when you are about to risk your neck around Suzuka, and 11 years ago it was a risk. Basically Williams were with exception, never apparently very understanding with their drivers. Subjectively I also seem to recall that there was a distinct impression that JV was favoured over Hill in '96 and I read somewhere that they swapped cars at Suzuka '96 and JV's broke of course whilst Damon won in JV's car.

Any team that lets two newly crowned World Champs go thus depriving their sponsors of the marketing and commercial benefits of the following season, is surely playing hardball against their own interests. Not just World Champs either, Frentzen's considerable potential was arguably squandered unnecessarily.

Personally I think DH was pretty good given that he came to F1 very late by contemporary standards. Yes the Newey Williams were the best cars but he still had to win and win he did as somebody pointed out very convincingly. If Schumacher had not been around then DH would probably have been World Champ three years in a row.

Not too shabby then.

[Leyser]

Originally posted by Paul Parker
DH was along with many other drivers a victim of Schumacher's omnipotence but also the strangely self defeating and demoralising aspect of Williams man management.

I recall that on at least one occasion either DH or DC were shouted at just before a wet Japanese GP, just what you need when you are about to risk your neck around Suzuka, and 11 years ago it was a risk. Basically Williams were with exception, never apparently very understanding with their drivers. Subjectively I also seem to recall that there was a distinct impression that JV was favoured over Hill in '96 and I read somewhere that they swapped cars at Suzuka '96 and JV's broke of course whilst Damon won in JV's car.

Any team that lets two newly crowned World Champs go thus depriving their sponsors of the marketing and commercial benefits of the following season, is surely playing hardball against their own interests. Not just World Champs either, Frentzen's considerable potential was arguably squandered unnecessarily.

Personally I think DH was pretty good given that he came to F1 very late by contemporary standards. Yes the Newey Williams were the best cars but he still had to win and win he did as somebody pointed out very convincingly. If Schumacher had not been around then DH would probably have been World Champ three years in a row.

Not too shabby then.

It all stems from the belief that it's the car that contributes the most to these drivers' achievement. Sometimes that is misguided, but sometimes it isn't. It is, however, always unpleasant on a personal level.

[Amanda]

Williams informed Damon just before Monza 1996 that he wouldn't be driving for them the following year, because they had already signed up Frentzen. But then that was not uncommon for Williams, they didn't keep on many drivers who won the Champshionship for them e.g. Mansell. Damon did not have a lot of choice that far into the season. Still he almost and should have won the Hungarian GP for Arrows, a considerable achievement considering he barely qualified at the beginnign of the season in the Arrows. He then went on to win Jordan's 1st GP which just goes to show how underestimated he was.

[Imperial]

According to Hills aide at the time, Ann Bradshaw, he did indeed take the Arrows offer for the financial benefits over what Mclaren offered him.

The Mclaren offer apparently was genuine as I remember her saying in an Autosport or F1 Racing interview many years ago that she was furious with Damon for not taking up the Mclaren contract that was there on the table waiting for him to sign.

She said Damon was a little insulted with the offer Ron genuinely made to him, which she stated was payment for race wins and the WDC only (although it would have been handsome payment for each race win).

If only Damon had took the Mclaren offer and stayed there through to at least the end of 1999...

[kamix]

Most have probably read these but here's an old link to some great Hill interviews.

[xype]

Originally posted by DavidR
And never had the potential to have a tally of wins that big.

Dude, how old was Hill when he started F1? Duh.

[Arrow]

I think Damons offer from mclaren was 1 million base wage and 1 million bonus for every win capped at 4 wins. Certainly a decent offer considering the quality of the car. Sadly Damon thought he was better than he was.

[Paul Prost]

Isn't it funny that threads about events over a decade ago are so much more enjoyable and pleasant than the usual flamebait/troll wars?

I agree with others here.. Hill in many ways deserved the '94 Championship as he often drove out of his skin.. but he was a very different driver in '95.

[xype]

Originally posted by Arrow
I think Damons offer from mclaren was 1 million base wage and 1 million bonus for every win capped at 4 wins. Certainly a decent offer considering the quality of the car. Sadly Damon thought he was better than he was.

Hinsight is just one of those things you'd wish to have had beforehand, isn't it?

[dpardyrx7]

Both Frank Williams and Patrick Head held the opinion that the car was more important than the driver. Willimas as a team are notorious for dumping a driver as soon as thier value goes up in the market. So in all likelihood when Damon and Williams started discussing contracts, the ownership vetoed any increase and that ment Damon was left scrambling to find a drive.

The interesting part for me personally is that I started following F1 in a regular basis around 1994/5 and always thought that Hill was a great compliment to Newey. Hill gave great technical feedback to Newey's design. With Damon's help Williams won three WCC's and two WDC (Hill and Villeneuve) . After the departure of Hill and Newey, Williams was never again to contend for a WCC, despite Patrick Head's assertions that Hill and Newey (and Villeneuve) were all incompetent!

[Dolph]

Originally posted by mikedeering
So mid 1995, Frank makes contact with HHF as Hill's replacement. He had always wanted Frentzen - he tried to sign him as replacement to Senna, but HHF wanted to remain at Sauber in the wake of Wendlinger's Monaco accident.

KW's accident was in '94 not '95

[Dolph]

Originally posted by Imperial
According to Hills aide at the time, Ann Bradshaw, he did indeed take the Arrows offer for the financial benefits over what Mclaren offered him.

The Mclaren offer apparently was genuine as I remember her saying in an Autosport or F1 Racing interview many years ago that she was furious with Damon for not taking up the Mclaren contract that was there on the table waiting for him to sign.

She said Damon was a little insulted with the offer Ron genuinely made to him, which she stated was payment for race wins and the WDC only (although it would have been handsome payment for each race win).

If only Damon had took the Mclaren offer and stayed there through to at least the end of 1999...

Let's not forget McLaren was not exactly a race winning team in 1996 nor WC contender. It's like Williams coming to Alonso in 2006 and saying : "hey, here's 1 mil for each race win and a couple a mil for WDC. Other than that you get nothing!" And then there's BMW coming in and saying: "Hey, look, we aint exactly winning races, but we are trying hard. Will make you the star driver and oh, btw, here's 8 mil to show we really are commited to you"

Originally posted by Paul Prost
Isn't it funny that threads about events over a decade ago are so much more enjoyable and pleasant than the usual flamebait/troll wars?

It is nice, ins't it!?

[Imperial]

Originally posted by Dolph


Let's not forget McLaren was not exactly a race winning team in 1996 nor WC contender. It's like Williams coming to Alonso in 2006 and saying : "hey, here's 1 mil for each race win and a couple a mil for WDC. Other than that you get nothing!" And then there's BMW coming in and saying: "Hey, look, we aint exactly winning races, but we are trying hard. Will make you the star driver and oh, btw, here's 8 mil to show we really are commited to you"




It is nice, ins't it!?

You're forgetting that Adrian Newey was already out of the Williams team in 1996 though and waiting for his notice period to end before he could start work on a Mclaren.

Hill should not have underestimated the effect Newey would have in future seasons at Mclaren. I'm sure he hadn't already forgotten who had designed the car he had just won the WDC in.

[Dolph]

I partly agree, but u know, Newey is in RBR now and can you honestly claim that they will become competitive next season!? And if yes, then how competitive? Very ambiguous I think...

[mini696]

Williams have a history of not retaining WDC's.

[tifoso]

Originally posted by tidytracks
Perhaps he thought he could do a Schuey and take a team in the doldrums and pick them up? Perhaps it was the cash. Or perhaps he genuinely had nowhere else to go.

It was the cash. Damon wasn't the most natural talent around but he was pretty smart. He had to know that he didn't have the talent or personality to "do a Schuey." Villeneuve on the other hand...;)

[Tenmantaylor]

As Champion, I think Damon (rightly so) will have wanted money that Williams wouldnt pay when they knew they had the best car still the option on other drivers who could do the job (JV and HHF).

As for Hill detractors- In 93, Hill stepped into his first full year in F1 against two all time greats (Senna, Prost) and one all time great to be (MS) and beat them all on numerous occasions- Notably Spa where he won infront of all of them put together. He won in Hungary and Monza too.

[Paste]

Damon, I don't think, gets the credit he deserves for the job he did.

He raced against Prost quite well in his debut year. He was then thrust into the team leader role when Senna died, and was fighting against the driver who have dominated the sport for over a decade.

1995 wasn't very good, but I think that in 1996 he did a good job to win the title. It went down to the wire with Villeneuve, but don't forget that Hill knew he was out at Williams at the end of the year, which likely wouldn't make it the easiest of circumstances.

When the Arrows was up to the job, Damon put it in places that were pretty remarkable, and then of course there was 1998 with Jordan where he was awesome, especially in the second half of the year. He stayed too long and 1999 was ugly, but I really don't think he gets the credit he deserves for what he did when he was in F1.

[pkrash]

Holy crap! Half of you guys need a history lesson....pick up a book.
Hill barely won the '96 WDC after JV gave way in the first race ...also JV's first race in F1.
Hill didn't beat JV in Suzuka...JV out qualified Hill but DNF'd due to a wheel falling off.
Williams had no intention of retaining Hill after he demanded more $$ to resign.
Hill came late to racing and never had natural speed. Yes, he was usually able to bring a fast car home but never showed dazzling ability. He was aways favoured as he is a Brit, same deal as Button.

[Dolph]

Originally posted by pkrash
Holy crap! Half of you guys need a history lesson....pick up a book.
Hill barely won the '96 WDC after JV gave way in the first race ...also JV's first race in F1.
Hill didn't beat JV in Suzuka...JV out qualified Hill but DNF'd due to a wheel falling off.
Williams had no intention of retaining Hill after he demanded more $$ to resign.
Hill came late to racing and never had natural speed. Yes, he was usually able to bring a fast car home but never showed dazzling ability. He was aways favoured as he is a Brit, same deal as Button.

Maybe you need a history lesson... JV was way back in the last race before retirement, whilst DAmon won way in front

[boostpressure]

Hill really should have been a two time champion, 1994 was his World Title. The way MS won it was a disgrace, yet it played into is hands the following year as with the best car, Hill botched up the year and MS romped it with some dazzling performances.

On top of that, in 1997, Hill should have snapped Ron Dennis' hand off no matter what offer he gave him, Hill would have run Mika bloody close those years and possibly beat him. There is no doubt that on the top of his game, he was a great, fast driver. Very technical and strong in the wet, he's underrated.

For me, 1995 is the one year he didn't drive great. All the other years he had great drives in top machinery and poor machinery. In a way he was pretty unlucky not to be a multiple World Champion.

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by Dolph


Maybe you need a history lesson... JV was way back in the last race before retirement, whilst DAmon won way in front

Yes. Hill was champion by 19 points in the end. And at Suzuka he was fautless when the pressure was on, unlike Villeneuve who had a messy race and never featured.

As for the first race - Villeneuve had to give way because he had damaged his car when he fell off the road under pressure from Damon.

Hill made his share of mistakes but I think history judges he far too harshly.

And where does the notion that Brits are favoured come from exactly? Favoured by whom? SFW effectively sacked both Mansell and Hill - the last two British World Champions.

[xype]

Originally posted by tifoso
It was the cash. Damon wasn't the most natural talent around but he was pretty smart. He had to know that he didn't have the talent or personality to "do a Schuey." Villeneuve on the other hand...;)

Yah, that's what I always liked about Hill – he was always pretty mature (likely had something to do with his age, too). I think that in 1996 he thought that his time in F1 is more or less over so he decided to earn some more money with his title. And I guess that way always one of the main reasons he was in F1. Even though, imho, he had more than enough talent to aim for multiple championships he rather took the less risky route.

[scousepenguin]

Originally posted by wj_gibson

Arrows offered Hill a salary of $4.5m, less than that of some of the other mid-field teams that had offered him a drive (Stewart offered him at least $5.5m IIRC), although they also offered him unconditional no. 1 status which Hill had sought for some time without joy at Williams. But I think he was generally impressed by their then-new factory, which at that time was at least comparable with teams like Benetton and Jordan.

Well said.
Indeed, I also recall Damon saying that he was very impressed by the factory and that it had convinced him that they had what it took to challenge for wins, and, with development, the title.

[Imperial]

Originally posted by Dolph
I partly agree, but u know, Newey is in RBR now and can you honestly claim that they will become competitive next season!? And if yes, then how competitive? Very ambiguous I think...

Who knows how well they will do, but certainly better than this season I imagine.

[Imperial]

Originally posted by pkrash
Holy crap! Half of you guys need a history lesson....pick up a book.
Hill barely won the '96 WDC after JV gave way in the first race ...also JV's first race in F1.
Hill didn't beat JV in Suzuka...JV out qualified Hill but DNF'd due to a wheel falling off.
Williams had no intention of retaining Hill after he demanded more $$ to resign.
Hill came late to racing and never had natural speed. Yes, he was usually able to bring a fast car home but never showed dazzling ability. He was aways favoured as he is a Brit, same deal as Button.

You need to check your history pkrash if you don't know the circumstances of Villenueve's first race and why he dropped behind.

You are right in that Hill came late to car racing (he was never late to racing having been on 2 wheels prior to 4) and that he perhaps wasn't the most gifted of drivers.

But that's what makes his WDC all the more wonderful !!! The fact that he was able to push with what talent he did have and get where he did, especially as you say with his late entry to car racing. I'm what I consider too old to realistically start in F1, yet still younger than Hill was when he started, and I wouldn't even dream that I could win a Formula1 WDC, even though I can pedal a car quite fast.

And of course he was favoured as a Brit, as is Button. It's for the same reason Schumacher is revered in Germany and Alonso is in Spain. Don't take it out on Hill, every successful driver is adored in their home country. Why shouldn't they be? A driver wins a WDC so his nation turns its back on him? That doesn't work !!!