364 replies to this topic

[Stan Patterson]

The hysteria generated and the nonsense written, following the death of poor Peter Brock, serve to graphically illustrate the sick and sorry state of Australian motor racing.

We have seen an offer of a State Funeral in Melbourne, we have seen Sir Jack Brabham described as "possibly" as influential , we have seen the word "legend" used over and over, we have seen an apalling and tasteless media frenzy akin to sharks feeding,..the list goes on and on.

A sporting legend is a person who has achieved world-wide fame by dominating his/her sport at the HIGHEST LEVEL.

Lets look at some genuine Australian sporting legends:

Rod Laver - 4 times Wimbledon winner, double Grand Slam winner recognised as the greatest tennis player ever

Don Bradman - universially acknowldeged as the greatest cricketer who ever lived

Sir Jack Brabham - triple world champion only person ever to win in a car of his own design and manufacture

Peter Thomson - five times British Open Champion

Dawn Fraser - world record breaker and multi-Olympic gold medalist


It should be noted that each of the LEGEND examples given achieved their success on the WORLD STAGE against the WORLD'S BEST at the HIGHEST LEVEL.

However, in Australia today, it is possible for a "racing driver" to achieve the status of a "legend" without ever sitting in an open wheel racing car, let alone a F1 car, without competing overseas and by restricting his activities to competing against other locals on some ridiculous form of silhouette taxi cab racing.

How many times can it be heard on Sunday afternoon TV... ."Oh so and so won in Formula 3 and Formula Holden and and has now moved UP to V8 Supercars"?.....UP? UP?......... I dare say as his career improves, he can move UP to truck racing, then UP to ute racing and ultimately UP to those 3/4 size motor cycle engined funny cars that have infested our motor sport.

In Formula 4000 we have very good fields of fast modern open wheel cars but the media and the other corrupt influences who have destoyed our motor sport, ensure we ..the general public...see and hear only that which suits their commerical greed. The inevitable result is this perverse distortion of what constitutes UPWARDS and the misguided public adoration ochestrated by the the spin doctors.

Make no mistake, the great motor racing heritage given to this country by Whiteford, Davison, Jones, Patterson , Stillwell, Matich, Geohegan, Bartlett ... et al .... has been destroyed forever ............RIP

Oh, by the way, I believe from now on, the Melbourne Cup is to be run for hack riding school horses because the public relates better to them than they do to pure race horses.

WHEN WILL WE WAKE UP ?

[Robert Bailey]

Fair comment Stan,thats why so many of us do our own thing.Like historic racing in Australia so many good people have moved on.Just look at thr HCC,full of nothings pushing there own little ideas,i woke up to em years ago just look at there there carears and whom employed them ie,CBA,Australian Wheat Board it goes on and on.

[Ray Bell]

Very pointed comment there, Robert...

Stan, this trend started in the early sixties. Open wheelers got a reprieve of sorts in the F5000 era, but were doomed once FAtlantic was adopted for the Gold Star.

[Gary Davies]

Stan, the passion in your post is palpable and I share so much of your sentiments. Well said. And 'legend'... what a grotesquely over-used and misused word. I avoid it, have done for years. As for V8 Supercars, I just don't have the vocabulary to describe how boring and contrived I find the category and all the flim flam that surrounds it.

Best Regards...

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Stan Patterson
The hysteria generated and the nonsense written, following the death of poor Peter Brock, serve to graphically illustrate the sick and sorry state of Australian motor racing.

We have seen an offer of a State Funeral in Melbourne, we have seen Sir Jack Brabham described as "possibly" as influential , we have seen the word "legend" used over and over, we have seen an apalling and tasteless media frenzy akin to sharks feeding,..the list goes on and on.

A sporting legend is a person who has achieved world-wide fame by dominating his/her sport at the HIGHEST LEVEL.

Lets look at some genuine Australian sporting legends:

Rod Laver - 4 times Wimbledon winner, double Grand Slam winner recognised as the greatest tennis player ever

Don Bradman - universially acknowldeged as the greatest cricketer who ever lived

Sir Jack Brabham - triple world champion only person ever to win in a car of his own design and manufacture

Peter Thomson - five times British Open Champion

Dawn Fraser - world record breaker and multi-Olympic gold medalist


It should be noted that each of the LEGEND examples given achieved their success on the WORLD STAGE against the WORLD'S BEST at the HIGHEST LEVEL.

However, in Australia today, it is possible for a "racing driver" to achieve the status of a "legend" without ever sitting in an open wheel racing car, let alone a F1 car, without competing overseas and by restricting his activities to competing against other locals on some ridiculous form of silhouette taxi cab racing.

How many times can it be heard on Sunday afternoon TV... ."Oh so and so won in Formula 3 and Formula Holden and and has now moved UP to V8 Supercars"?.....UP? UP?......... I dare say as his career improves, he can move UP to truck racing, then UP to ute racing and ultimately UP to those 3/4 size motor cycle engined funny cars that have infested our motor sport.

In Formula 4000 we have very good fields of fast modern open wheel cars but the media and the other corrupt influences who have destoyed our motor sport, ensure we ..the general public...see and hear only that which suits their commerical greed. The inevitable result is this perverse distortion of what constitutes UPWARDS and the misguided public adoration ochestrated by the the spin doctors.

Make no mistake, the great motor racing heritage given to this country by Whiteford, Davison, Jones, Patterson , Stillwell, Matich, Geohegan, Bartlett ... et al .... has been destroyed forever ............RIP

Oh, by the way, I believe from now on, the Melbourne Cup is to be run for hack riding school horses because the public relates better to them than they do to pure race horses.

WHEN WILL WE WAKE UP ?

Stan, I totally agree with what you are saying. I for one owe my career to the FIA F1 world championship of 1965/66 won by AUSTRALIANS,in chassis, driver & engine combo's. This then led onto 3 consecutive Australian F2 Championships 1973 /74 driven by Leo Geoghegan ,1975 Geoff Brabham AF2 champion , all AF2 championships were won in Adelaide DESIGNED & BUILT Birrana openwheel chassis,. We can and have in the past produced world class Engines , Drivers , Chassis Engineers , Technicians, local motorsport has killed off all this expertise we once had ,the 2 local car manufacturers have seen to that. YES when will we wake up..!!

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Vanwall
Stan, the passion in your post is palpable and I share so much of your sentiments. Well said. And 'legend'... what a grotesquely over-used and misused word. I avoid it, have done for years. As for V8 Supercars, I just don't have the vocabulary to describe how boring and contrived I find the category and all the flim flam that surrounds it.

Best Regards...

Very well put, Kind Regards

[Murray Lord]

While I agree with most of the sentiments here, I think someone needs to be Devil's Advocate.

So Australians prefer touring cars to openwheelers. Shouldn't we just be thanking ourselves there is a decent professional standard racing series where people can earn a living as a driver in Australia? After all, how many countries can you name where there is a top level domestic series for "proper" racing cars that isn't just a stepping stone for kids to spend a year or two in on their way to failing to get into F1. The recent thread about whether Marco Andretti deserved to be called the youngest winner in a major openwheel race series could only identify F1, Champ Cars and IRL as the only series that aren't steps on the way to somewhere else. Maybe you could add Japan to the list but I can't think of any others.

Fair comment about the current media hysteria. You forgot to mention "icon" as well as "legend". But surely this isn't just an Australian issue - ask an American to name some racing legends and I would suspect you're more likely to hear names like Unser, Petty and Earnhardt than Fangio or Senna. The fact that drivers who fight their way to the top in touring cars aren't going around the track as quickly as they could be if they were in a real racing car shoudn't diminish their achievement. And the fact that many people who live in a country that a former prime minister described as being at the "a**e end of the earth" elevate local sporting stars to hero status instead of reserving it for people who drive those funny little cars that are only on television in the middle of the night from the other side of the planet isn't a great surprise!

Yes it would be great to see a competitive openwheeler series here. But has there ever been a time in Australia where there were more than say three or four top competitive professional domestic teams running real racing cars? Even looking back to the 50s and 60s before the obsession with taxis it seems the fields consisted of a couple of rich amateurs with top level equipment (who may well have been good drivers, but who did not get there based on their driving skill alone), at best a couple of professional drivers, and then a bunch of enthusiasts who were never competitive. (I wasn't around then so please correct me if I am wrong).

Murray

[Paul Newby]

Mmm. what about Australian John Martin winning on debut at Brands Hatch in the British Formula Ford Championship in an Australian built Spectrum chassis less than a month ago (August 2006.)

This was the first success for an Australian chassis overseas since Birrana in '75.

There was a feature article in last weeks Auto Action, did you see it.

Spectrum has appointed an agent in the UK to market and sell their chassis.

So Cossie, all is not lost in Australian motorsport....

[Robert Bailey]

Originally posted by Vanwall
Stan, the passion in your post is palpable and I share so much of your sentiments. Well said. And 'legend'... what a grotesquely over-used and misused word. I avoid it, have done for years. As for V8 Supercars, I just don't have the vocabulary to describe how boring and contrived I find the category and all the flim flam that surrounds it.

Best Regards...

stop on regarding V8 taxies.But if you go to a meet just look at the types that go,I'm not a snob but o dear its low lifes ect.

[Paul Newby]

Originally posted by Murray Lord
While I agree with most of the sentiments here, I think someone needs to be Devil's Advocate.

So Australians prefer touring cars to openwheelers. Shouldn't we just be thanking ourselves there is a decent professional standard racing series where people can earn a living as a driver in Australia? After all, how many countries can you name where there is a top level domestic series for "proper" racing cars that isn't just a stepping stone for kids to spend a year or two in on their way to failing to get into F1. The recent thread about whether Marco Andretti deserved to be called the youngest winner in a major openwheel race series could only identify F1, Champ Cars and IRL as the only series that aren't steps on the way to somewhere else. Maybe you could add Japan to the list but I can't think of any others.

Fair comment about the current media hysteria. You forgot to mention "icon" as well as "legend". But surely this isn't just an Australian issue - ask an American to name some racing legends and I would suspect you're more likely to hear names like Unser, Petty and Earnhardt than Fangio or Senna. The fact that drivers who fight their way to the top in touring cars aren't going around the track as quickly as they could be if they were in a real racing car shoudn't diminish their achievement. And the fact that many people who live in a country that a former prime minister described as being at the "a**e end of the earth" elevate local sporting stars to hero status instead of reserving it for people who drive those funny little cars that are only on television in the middle of the night from the other side of the planet isn't a great surprise!

Yes it would be great to see a competitive openwheeler series here. But has there ever been a time in Australia where there were more than say three or four top competitive professional domestic teams running real racing cars? Even looking back to the 50s and 60s before the obsession with taxis it seems the fields consisted of a couple of rich amateurs with top level equipment (who may well have been good drivers, but who did not get there based on their driving skill alone), at best a couple of professional drivers, and then a bunch of enthusiasts who were never competitive. (I wasn't around then so please correct me if I am wrong).

Murray

Murray I agree with your sentiments.

I think in the history of single seater racing in Australia there are three instances where CAMS got it terribly wrong and the sport suffered:

1969/70 - the fiasco of deciding between a 2 Litre formula and F5000. A number of big players were wrong-footed and were disenfranchised and F5000 got off to a slowe start as a result

1980/81 - Changing from F5000 to F Pacific / Atlantic. NZ made the change in the mid 70's but we in Australia hung on until F5000 became a joke - 81 Gold Star anyone?

1987 - Gold Star for ANF2 cars at the Adelaide GP? It took a while to change over to Formula Brabham / Holden / 4000

2003/06 - F4000 v F3 tug-o-war for the Australian Gold Star. So 2006 Gold Star champion is a pom who couldn't get the budget in his own country, dominates our series and wins it, doesn't have the budget to contest the whole series, has ambitions to race in V8Supercar.

That say it all.

Something to ponder. Bob Jane was always a great supporter of sports cars and Formula cars with Spencer Martin and John Harvey. Of course he had a foot in both camps with his own touring cars. At his sponsor's request (Castrol) he increasingly moved away from the formula cars to touring cars. It made commercial sense to go where the money and the sponsers went.

So he did.

And so has everyone else who has tried to carve a professional living out of motorsport in Australia. We might not be enthralled that we've ended up with taxis as our main event, but as a national championship of depth and international significance we certainly punch above our weight. We should never forget that.

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Robert Bailey
stop on regarding V8 taxies.But if you go to a meet just look at the types that go,I'm not a snob but o dear its low lifes ect.

Isn't that what the SPIVS at GM & FORD have created.????

[xbgs351]

It is very interesting to see my own opinions on the matters raised in this thread being echoed by so many people.


The talk of Peter Brock and Spectrum got me thinking. Didn't Borland Racing Developments (Spectrum) develop the car that Peter Brock died in?

[Robert Bailey]

yes with help from Ross Holder.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Im always bemused by how many Australian motorsport fans dont like V8s, in the same vein that the road course fans in America dont like NASCAR.

Whereas a lot of non-Australians list V8 Supercar amongst their favorite racing series. I love it, its the best touring car series in the world imo.

I will try to re-arrange what I am doing on any given day to catch F1 and MotoGP, I will watch GP2 when its convenient, and I watch V8s whenever I can, which is random due to the broadcast schedule here.

To me Peter Brock was a 'legend' as a representative of Australian motorracing, and also within Australian motorracing.

Hell he was well known in American racing just for his TV commercials!

[Stan Patterson]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Very pointed comment there, Robert...

Stan, this trend started in the early sixties. Open wheelers got a reprieve of sorts in the F5000 era, but were doomed once FAtlantic was adopted for the Gold Star.

Yes Ray.... the trend started in the early 60's with the Jane Beechey clashes, however, the Tasman Series was in full flight and in the words of Bruce McLaren writing in Autosport circa 1963... "Australia is the only place in the world where local drivers can run competively with the world's top F1 drivers" ..what went wrong?

I would nominate, sponsorship, advertising on racing cars, shallow TV interest and in the wider picture, the general Americanisation of Australia......

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Stan Patterson


Yes Ray.... the trend started in the early 60's with the Jane Beechey clashes, however, the Tasman Series was in full flight and in the words of Bruce McLaren writing in Autosport circa 1963... "Australia is the only place in the world where local drivers can run competively with the world's top F1 drivers" ..what went wrong?

I would nominate, sponsorship, advertising on racing cars, shallow TV interest and in the wider picture, the general Americanisation of Australia......

How very very true.....

[Stan Patterson]

Originally posted by cosworth bdg
How very very true.....

I fear Bib Stillwell does not rest easy

[eldougo]

Originally posted by Stan Patterson
WHEN WILL WE WAKE UP ? [/B]

.


Sorry STAN it's way past that stage in Australian motorsport. We reached the point of no return in the 70's and V8 supershit is the last nail in the coffin for REAL motorsport in OZ.
These so called Fans (loosers) i call them have been feed all this **** by the local MEDIA at channel 7and then they have grown up. and now some of these poor sods are the Media and they have pushed it to another level (i.e. Legend status),and the poor sods believe what they are told and so it's snowball to what we are feed today V8 ****.
I feel sorry for any genuine person that would like to see real local formula racing. Because they will NEVER get it. Apart from F1 AGP (which it on the big slide DOWN to nothing) all we are left with is A1 and so far the have put on a GOOD show and showed some realracing from time to time in the 1st season (come on the 2006-07 series).
All i know that the Media have Killed Motorsport world wide for REAL fans of Racing and given us these series with 20 to 30 different colour Taxi's all in a row, Crash and Banging there way to become the next Ledend in the country ,in started in the UK & USA and it spread world wide.

All i can say thank GOD i was born in a time that allowed me to see REAL racing and even parpiciate in it ,another thing, these poor SODS will never be able to realise SADLY .
Ooooo well all they got to look forward is the October 2006 Bathurst ,sitting on the Mountain drinking there Vb's watching V8's and wishing P.Brock was still around to make there misreable lives better.

O well i have giveup on motorsportworld wide ,thanks for the memories.

Cheers Eldougo.

[Patrick Fletcher]

Originally posted by Stan Patterson




I fear Bib Stillwell does not rest easy

Stillwell's crash at the Geelong Speed Trials was very nasty - was he under stress from flying or was it a car failure ?
No body said much that day and I did not bother trying to find out what happened.
Was his recovery complete ?

[Stan Patterson]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Im always bemused by how many Australian motorsport fans dont like V8s, in the same vein that the road course fans in America dont like NASCAR.

Whereas a lot of non-Australians list V8 Supercar amongst their favorite racing series. I love it, its the best touring car series in the world imo.

I will try to re-arrange what I am doing on any given day to catch F1 and MotoGP, I will watch GP2 when its convenient, and I watch V8s whenever I can, which is random due to the broadcast schedule here.

To me Peter Brock was a 'legend' as a representative of Australian motorracing, and also within Australian motorracing.

Hell he was well known in American racing just for his TV commercials!

Sorry Ross......have u ever been outside of Australia?..If you haven't,... let me tell you, aussie taxi cab racing, is about as interesting to the BRITS and euro's, as the results of C Grade Albury Junior tennis tournament

WAKE UP

[DNQ]

I agree with some of the sentiment in this thread - YES, V8 Supercars has unfortunantly totally overtaken the Australian public's perception of motorsport. Nothing else rates a mention.

However, I don't think things are that dire. The number of Australian drivers overseas atm is extremely healthy, so obviously our academy of junior formula is pumping out good drivers. We've got Will Power in CCWS, Webber in F1, Briscoe in IRL (from time to time...), numerous drivers in junior categories, not to mention Atko in WRC and Stoner in MotoGP. So internationally, I think Australian racing is very healthy.

The main problem in Australia is the lack of coverage for "other" classes. I was very disappointed when the PROCAR experiment imploded some years ago. THAT was a good package of motorsport. Nations Cup, GT Performance, Production Cars, F3, BRutes ... the Bathurst 24hr ... for a while there it looked like we might have a strong organisation getting some OK publicity.

But now ... it's V8s and that's it. The man on the street only knows about V8 Supercars.

Although I find V8S my favourite series of racing in the world, there are aspects I hate. What's with 32 car grids at Bathurst? Why can't Richard Mork line up in an old VT if he can afford it? Why set a limit? etc etc.

There are many things that could be changed ... but I don't think it's ALL doom and gloom.

[Terry Walker]

For practically all of Australia's motor racing history it was a totally amateur enterprise. As late as 1970, when I began to dabble in it, the principal sponsor of my car was . . . me. A civil servant on a microscopic budget. The only way I could race was to modify my street car, a 105E Anglia. A sedan. I loved single seaters, but they were fantastically outside my reach. In those days neither F Ford nor F Vee were available in my home state. In any event, I could not have afforded either of them.

Lex Davison was an amateur. Bib Stilwell was an amateur. Stan Jones was an amateur. Even Brabham was semi-amateur until he made his name in the UK. It was simply not possible to be a professional racing driver in Australia in those days. I would suggest that Brock is the first full-time professional racing driver in Australia, and Moffat right on his heels.

The Australian spectating public voted with their dollars. They wanted to watch the touring cars. The big money followed the public. The big manufacturers in Australia were not single-seater racing first operations, with productioin sports cars to subsidise the racing, like Ferrari and Maserati, but outfits like Holden, Ford and co.

Motor racing as a sport was virtually unknown to the Oz public at large until the happy day when Peter Williamson went around Bathurst with a TV camera in his car, chattingly explaining what he was doing.

I don't regret the poor state of Australian single seater racing. It was always unsustainable. Like the USA, Australia established its own motor racing idom.

[Stan Patterson]

Originally posted by Patrick Fletcher

Stillwell's crash at the Geelong Speed Trials was very nasty - was he under stress from flying or was it a car failure ?
No body said much that day and I did not bother trying to find out what happened.
Was his recovery complete ?

hi PATRICK.

I believe it was due to the fact that the rear wing had been removed from the Brabham...oops was it a Brock or a Moffat?

I knew Bib Stillwell personally ...from an entirely unnconnected world...his body recovered but I fear the crash eventually killed him

[Stan Patterson]

Originally posted by Terry Walker
For practically all of Australia's motor racing history it was a totally amateur enterprise. As late as 1970, when I began to dabble in it, the principal sponsor of my car was . . . me. A civil servant on a microscopic budget. The only way I could race was to modify my street car, a 105E Anglia. A sedan. I loved single seaters, but they were fantastically outside my reach. In those days neither F Ford nor F Vee were available in my home state. In any event, I could not have afforded either of them.

Lex Davison was an amateur. Bib Stilwell was an amateur. Stan Jones was an amateur. Even Brabham was semi-amateur until he made his name in the UK. It was simply not possible to be a professional racing driver in Australia in those days. I would suggest that Brock is the first full-time professional racing driver in Australia, and Moffat right on his heels.

The Australian spectating public voted with their dollars. They wanted to watch the touring cars. The big money followed the public. The big manufacturers in Australia were not single-seater racing first operations, with productioin sports cars to subsidise the racing, like Ferrari and Maserati, but outfits like Holden, Ford and co.

Motor racing as a sport was virtually unknown to the Oz public at large until the happy day when Peter Williamson went around Bathurst with a TV camera in his car, chattingly explaining what he was doing.

I don't regret the poor state of Australian single seater racing. It was always unsustainable. Like the USA, Australia established its own motor racing idom.

[Option1]

Originally posted by Stan Patterson


Sorry Ross......have u ever been outside of Australia?..If you haven't,... let me tell you, aussie taxi cab racing, is about as interesting to the BRITS and euro's, as the results of C Grade Albury Junior tennis tournament

WAKE UP

Ummm Stan, I'm not sure that Ross has ever been IN Australia. Personally, as much as I prefer open wheel racing, I think Ross makes perfectly valid points.

I'd also suggest, that for me at least, Oz formula racing started to die when F5000 hung around for so long and became such a joke long after the rest of the world had moved onto more exciting formulae. I gave up round about the time the Wolf F1 cars visited Oz - they were so stunning compared to the dinosaur F5000s.

Neil

[Stan Patterson]

Originally posted by Terry Walker
For practically all of Australia's motor racing history it was a totally amateur enterprise. As late as 1970, when I began to dabble in it, the principal sponsor of my car was . . . me. A civil servant on a microscopic budget. The only way I could race was to modify my street car, a 105E Anglia. A sedan. I loved single seaters, but they were fantastically outside my reach. In those days neither F Ford nor F Vee were available in my home state. In any event, I could not have afforded either of them.

Lex Davison was an amateur. Bib Stilwell was an amateur. Stan Jones was an amateur. Even Brabham was semi-amateur until he made his name in the UK. It was simply not possible to be a professional racing driver in Australia in those days. I would suggest that Brock is the first full-time professional racing driver in Australia, and Moffat right on his heels.

The Australian spectating public voted with their dollars. They wanted to watch the touring cars. The big money followed the public. The big manufacturers in Australia were not single-seater racing first operations, with productioin sports cars to subsidise the racing, like Ferrari and Maserati, but outfits like Holden, Ford and co.

Motor racing as a sport was virtually unknown to the Oz public at large until the happy day when Peter Williamson went around Bathurst with a TV camera in his car, chattingly explaining what he was doing.

I don't regret the poor state of Australian single seater racing. It was always unsustainable. Like the USA, Australia established its own motor racing idom.

[Stan Patterson]

Terry.,

A...re you serious?,,does popular sentiment equate to what is right?.........does your knowledge of motor racing to Channel 10?and its influences?

btw... Who was Alec Mildren?

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by eldougo
Sorry STAN it's way past that stage in Australian motorsport. We reached the point of no return in the 70's and V8 supershit is the last nail in the coffin for REAL motorsport in OZ.
These so called Fans (loosers) i call them have been feed all this **** by the local MEDIA at channel 7and then they have grown up. and now some of these poor sods are the Media and they have pushed it to another level (i.e. Legend status),and the poor sods believe what they are told and so it's snowball to what we are feed today V8 ****.
I feel sorry for any genuine person that would like to see real local formula racing. Because they will NEVER get it. Apart from F1 AGP (which it on the big slide DOWN to nothing) all we are left with is A1 and so far the have put on a GOOD show and showed some realracing from time to time in the 1st season (come on the 2006-07 series).
All i know that the Media have Killed Motorsport world wide for REAL fans of Racing and given us these series with 20 to 30 different colour Taxi's all in a row, Crash and Banging there way to become the next Ledend in the country ,in started in the UK & USA and it spread world wide.

All i can say thank GOD i was born in a time that allowed me to see REAL racing and even parpiciate in it ,another thing, these poor SODS will never be able to realise SADLY .
Ooooo well all they got to look forward is the October 2006 Bathurst ,sitting on the Mountain drinking there Vb's watching V8's and wishing P.Brock was still around to make there misreable lives better.

O well i have giveup on motorsportworld wide ,thanks for the memories.

Cheers Eldougo.

Quite harsh Doug, generalising and largely untrue.....and just a little twitter and bisted.

The Australian scene is as healthy as it has ever been for quite some time in most classes....I would like to have 0.0000001% of the money spent on Motorsport in this country in my pocket (preferably right now thanks!! )

[Terry Walker]

Alec Mildren was a Canberra-based single seater driver. A bespectacled gentleman and a great driver, well into middle age. I have a photo of him correcting a huge opposite lock side at Caversham in his Cooper Climax. A very great Aussie driver in his day. (Greg Cusack was another Canberra driver..)

I am serious. Given my druthers, when I was a lot younger, I would have loved to have driven a real racing car. Yes, a single seater. Open wheeler. Whatever you care to call them. But you have to be realistic about these things, and for the life of me I cannot see Australian motor racing evolving in any other direction than it has, for the simple reason that there was never any serious money behind open wheeler racing here at any time.

Until the 70s, virtually all motor racing in Austrelia was amateur. Today, the same is true: except that there is a much-hyped category where a modest number of drivers are truly professional. That is, they make a living out of racing. That's tourers - taxicabs - superV8s. whatever. All the rest are, for want of a better word, amateur. Amateurs are those who make a living, and spend it on racing.

I'm not deluded into believing that Super V8s are the best of all possible worlds. I just accept that something along these lines was historically inevitable.

[Ray Bell]

To me, the real problem is the lack of publicity given to anything other than the sedans...

They have suffocated the rest of the sport almost to oblivion. Aided and abetted by 'promoters' not worthy of the name at all, they present the one public face of motor racing in Australia today.

Going back to the sixties, of course (Terry's comment about Peter Williamson triggered this), the national televising of the Armstrong 500 took racing into the living rooms of perhaps 80% of Australian households. For most of the people viewing those days, it was all the motor racing they knew.

This must be a large part of this issue. Peter Williamson added to this, but not for many years.

In my family, for instance, there were three boys who took off to most race meetings when they were on. Our parents took no notice at all. Except for those Bathurst events. These they watched almost religiously.

Let's not forget, too, that the race in those times was supposed to be an indication of what the average man's car could do. There were very few 'specials'... just a whole lot of family sedans. People did, indeed, watch the race to see what car might be good for them, might be durable and safe and maybe even fun to drive.

The extension of this race to the rest of the year, which began in 1973 with it transgressing to become a race for 'hotted up' cars, was the logical step that led to what we have now.

As for the small numbers of competitive cars in openwheeler ranks, there were times when there was more than just three or four. Especially in the F5000 days.

Bartlett, Stewart, Leffler, McCormack, Walker, Goss, Allison... that made a fair line-up at times. Add in Schuppan, McRae and Lawrence, regular visitors, and you have a good field.

[Stan Patterson]

Ballarrat February 1961


Works Lotus - Innes Ireland 2.5 Lotus Climax
OWEN Organisation BRM..Gurney and G Hill- 2.5 F1 BRM
Cooper Car Company- Ron Flpckhart 2.5 lowline Cooper


Mildren
Glass
Jones
Stillwell
Patterson
Davison
ROXBURUGH
Youl

all in Coopers


Were they Holdens or Falcons?...

[Stan Patterson]

Alec Mildren was Australian Champiom driver in 1960,.....he drove a T51 Cooper Maserati F1 car

[275 GTB-4]

Group hug....this is for you Terry

[Andrew Stevens]

With Channel 10 losing the V8 programming, it may just give the other branches of the sport a chance to 'breathe' a bit, especially as it seems that RPM will continue in some form. I guess there will be the F1 & WRC coverage, but they may well look a bit further for other things to fill the timeslot. The fact that we also get other programming covering ARC, Targa Tas, Classic Adelaide, various bike stuff etc on 10 we should be grateful for I think. The Pay TV world has also helped other branches of the sport get onto the box too.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Going back to the sixties, of course (Terry's comment about Peter Williamson triggered this), the national televising of the Armstrong 500 took racing into the living rooms of perhaps 80% of Australian households. For most of the people viewing those days, it was all the motor racing they knew.

This must be a large part of this issue. Peter Williamson added to this, but not for many years.

At the risk of antagonising RB, long before Willo took an axe to his boot people were flocking to picture theatres to enjoy Movietone Newsreels of motor racing heros of all types not to mention the radio.

I dispute this idea that Motor Sport suddenly became popular in the 1960s !!!! A lotta damn things became popular in the 1960s because there was a world-wide cultural flippin revolution

You can't go back....the televising of motorsport on the ABC and Seven at places like Amaroo, Catalina, Warwick Farm and Oran Park (in the case of NSW) plus all the other tracks around the place was a huge boost to the sport. I think some people are suffering from a bad case of short term memory loss in this debate.

[Stan Patterson]

Exactly....HOT DAMN! ..lurrv being an Aussiee..sorry Reg Hunt....Kevin Kneal..Patto

[Terry Walker]

Ballarat . . .

Great, and it was, but -

Only the overseas drivers were professionals; all the Aussies were amateurs (not a perjorative description, believe me). And I'm not entirely certain about Flockhart.

[Stan Patterson]

yes....they weren't financed by corrupt multi -nationials.....guess that makes them Amatuers,,they loved the sport.........

[Terry Walker]

Group hug....this is for you Terry

Wow . . but why is the driver with No 17 on his jacket studying No 40 so intensely.. loosen a few wheelnuts and you have a Bob Judd scenario. And that's obviously Wakfield Park. Somewhere I have a few medium format transparencies of opening day at WP.

My humble 105E never got past 1500cc engine, Cortina disc brakes, and rose jointed front end (which failed, and resulted in the car being written off. )

EDIT: can't spell Wakefield...

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Terry Walker
Ballarat . . .

Great, and it was, but -

Only the overseas drivers were professionals; all the Aussies were amateurs (not a perjorative description, believe me). And I'm not entirely certain about Flockhart.

Not only that, but the list presented wasn't totally competitive, was it?

Glass in a Cooper, for instance, was never (to my knowledge) on the pace. I don't think John Youl was up to speed at that time either, nor was John Roxburgh ever a contender.

And, Stan, to be honest, I thought your question about old Alec related to him being the team owner who had a professional driver working for him...

[Stan Patterson]

I loved seeing our amatuers harrassing Clark and Hill at Lakeside ..hello FRANK MATICH and John Youl;

Was that really Bib Stillwell annoying Moss at Sandown in 1962?i

Bill Patterson, you are an amatuer , leave Roy Salvadori alone..Longford 1961

Unless u are a manufacturer's whore u are an amatuer ......sorry..i am, about to do a truck racing Gold Star race event.....2 laps of the Peter Brock International Raceway,,,,,was it ever called Sandown?

[Stan Patterson]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Not only that, but the list presented wasn't totally competitive, was it?

Glass in a Cooper, for instance, was never (to my knowledge) on the pace. I don't think John Youl was up to speed at that time either, nor was John Roxburgh ever a contender.

And, Stan, to be honest, I thought your question about old Alec related to him being the team owner who had a professional driver working for him...

Old ALEC?


Go to physic medium and ask "old Alec" as u refer to him and A N Davison, about the 1960 AGP....

[Ray Bell]

Stan, I've got to say, you seem to be showing a side of yourself that's not going to be very welcome here...

We discuss, we sometimes dispute, but we treat each other with dignity and respect.

Yes, 'old' Alec... by the time he got through his career and was running his team, he was well on his way to being 'old', certainly in motor racing terms. I have no dispute about him or any of the others being able to drive at a level similar to - or even above - the 'professionals', but it's the very use of the word that introduces a factual aspect that cannot be denied.

Did they make a living doing it?

KB did, as I pointed out, and before Moff stuck his bib into our scene too. That means that the first 'professional' racing driver in Australia was an openwheeler man.

I wonder why you didn't read this into what I posted, rather than get your hackles up about how old you felt the man was.

[Terry Walker]

Unless u are a manufacturer's whore u are an amatuer ......

Well . . . allowing for extravagant language, yes. But was Jim Clark a manufacturer's whore? Hill? Fangio? Surtees? Ginther?

They were all professionals. My point is that professional racing was possible in Europe, but virtually impossible in Australia, until recently; and that for whatever historic reason, professional racing in Australia didn't eventuate until manufacturers started supporting racing teams which paid drivers to race. Those manufacturers were not Maserati, Ferrari, Mercedes, or even Cooper; but GMH and Ford and Chrysler and Toyota and various others, whose interest was restricted to their own products. Just as Maserati, Ferrari, Mercedes etc supported their own products.

Sad fact of life.

[Stan Patterson]

Ray,

Arnold Glass appeared in the ex-Gilby Engineering Cooper Maser T51 at Ballarat in 1961....was not as fast as "old Alec' as u prefer to call him./.but then on that day, not even Dan Gurney's works BRM could catch Stan Jones.....oops he was a wealthy amatuer..must have been hopeless

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Stan Patterson
Arnold Glass appeared in the ex-Gilby Engineering Cooper Maser T51 at Ballarat in 1961....was not as fast as "old Alec' as u prefer to call him./.but then on that day, not even Dan Gurney's works BRM could catch Stan Jones.....oops he was a wealthy amatuer..must have been hopeless

I suspect you were fortunate enough to be there... but I wasn't...

All the same, I think you're missing the point. Still. Nobody is saying that being self-funded equals lack of skill, in fact, quite a number of comments have been to the contrary.

Though, as a matter of fact, I don't think Stan was so wealthy by this time.

[Stan Patterson]

Originally posted by Terry Walker
Unless u are a manufacturer's whore u are an amatuer ......

Well . . . allowing for extravagant language, yes. But was Jim Clark a manufacturer's whore? Hill? Fangio? Surtees? Ginther?

They were all professionals. My point is that professional racing was possible in Europe, but virtually impossible in Australia, until recently; and that for whatever historic reason, professional racing in Australia didn't eventuate until manufacturers started supporting racing teams which paid drivers to race. Those manufacturers were not Maserati, Ferrari, Mercedes, or even Cooper; but GMH and Ford and Chrysler and Toyota and various others, whose interest was restricted to their own products. Just as Maserati, Ferrari, Mercedes etc supported their own products.

Sad fact of life.

Terry,

The Melbourne Cup is not a support race for riding school hire hacks

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
.....KB did, as I pointed out, and before Moff stuck his bib into our scene too. That means that the first 'professional' racing driver in Australia was an openwheeler man.....

And, of course, Frank Matich was a full professional during his Total Team time...

Sports cars and openwheelers, tintops only at Bathurst.

[Huw Jadvantich]

Aren't we guilty of being a little precious here?

F1 is deemed to be the pinnacle of motorsport. I am guilty of staying up till all hours in eager anticipation of the next GP have been for the last 30 years (and as often as not in the last fifteen nodding off half way through the 'event'.) Frankly, it is not the pinnacle of anything apart from averice and greed, but for some reason, like my ex-wife with Coronation Street, I have to see the next one.
NASCAR is generally two hours of boredom with two minutes of spectacle, but I still watch it if it is at one of the really high speed circuits.
Similarly I try to watch Aussy V8s if I can, when i know that stuff like WRC or 125 and 250 moto GPs will provide more spectacle and exitement.

V8s may be Taxis in Australia, but my brother in England is an avid fan - watching it on pay TV because they are V8s - they are exciting compared to what is dished up over there.
Lets face it - Peugeots and Mercedes are taxis all over the world, but they are considered thoroughbreds on the BTCC and DTM, which have both become lame as a spectacle.

I don't think Australian Motorsport is dying or dead, I think it is alive and kicking, providing thousands of jobs and a reasonable level of media interest. You guys in Australia are pretty spoilt.

People watch motorsport for spectacle. If I walk away from a circuit or a TV having seen some demon passing manouvres, heard some great noises and watched a car on the edge of control, I walk away well satisfied.
It doesn't matter if it is a sedan, a sportscar or a single seater, whether it is one make, two make or a free for all. It is the spectacle and the sounds that count.

Formula 5000 was great until it became a cheque book excercise, and that is what eventually kills every Formula; because of the size of the cheque book everything becomes Formulaic and sanitised. I find classic motorsport to be the most satisfying of any to watch, both from the sofa and from ttrackside.

To me it is quite simple. The problem with motorsport is aerodynamics and tyre technology. For as long as there is a decent surfeit of power over grip you get spectacle. You get to actually see great drivers, great cornering and great action. You can watch it and understand it. You must also be able to hear it, whether it is tyres screeching, a BDA, a thundering V8 or a screaming six.

What I don't understand is why the media don't pick this up.

There is another issue and that is the size of cars on a circuit - if the cars are too big for the circuit the spectacle suffers, which is why bike racing is so exciting to watch. Even so watching anything thread its way through the cutting, the dipper (or the cork screw at laguna for example) one at a time is a spectacle. A great track really does make motorsport exciting - no matter what the competitors are in, and how many of them there are.

I wish the aussy authorities would allow Alloy 4.2 production V8s in, so that we could watch Toyota, Mercedes, Jaguar, Audi and BMW to muscle in on the muscle cars. Perhaps then you might get some Pinot Noir amongst the VB.

[Terry Walker]

Originally posted by Terry Walker
Ballarat . . .

Great, and it was, but -

Only the overseas drivers were professionals; all the Aussies were amateurs (not a perjorative description, believe me). And I'm not entirely certain about Flockhart.

Don't like to quote myself, but I have never suggested for a second that "amateur" = "inferior". With possibly a few remarkable exceptions, and I can't think of any offhand, every professional racer started out an amateur. Even Schuey.

And hello Ray - didn't realise that KB was a professional so early, or I would have mentioned it.