54 replies to this topic

[Terry Walker]

In another forum there's a thread about crazy racing engines. Does anybody but me remember reading about an American racing car of the 1960s, probably a rear-engined sports car, which used a two-stroke outboard motor as a power unit? I have a vivid mental image of these huge expansion chambers pointing up into the sky like missile launchers.

I think I read it in SCW, and like a lot of things I read in the 1960s, it has stuck to my flypaper memory ever since. Unfortunately, my flypaper memory lacks an index.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Terry Walker
In another forum there's a thread about crazy racing engines. Does anybody but me remember reading about an American racing car of the 1960s, probably a rear-engined sports car, which used a two-stroke outboard motor as a power unit? I have a vivid mental image of these huge expansion chambers pointing up into the sky like missile launchers.

I think I read it in SCW, and like a lot of things I read in the 1960s, it has stuck to my flypaper memory ever since. Unfortunately, my flypaper memory lacks an index.

I don't know about a car, but there was certainly at least one 500cc sidecar outfit in the late 60s, I think, that used an outboard motor. The name Crescent is vaguely in my mind..is that a make of outboard?

[ian senior]

Originally posted by David Beard


I don't know about a car, but there was certainly at least one 500cc sidecar outfit in the late 60s, I think, that used an outboard motor. The name Crescent is vaguely in my mind..is that a make of outboard?

Yep, one of Rudi Kurth's creations, using a 3-cylinder Crescent outboard engine. The sidecar also used Citroen-based hydraulic suspension. I saw details on a website not long ago, but can't remember which one, although I'm sure Google could do the business for you.

[Rosemayer]

SCCA Runoffs year before last a gentleman from Madison WI. runs a C/SR with a Mecury black max 6 cylinder 2 stroke with expansion chambers. I watched him at Black Hawk Farms during practise the car made an unearthly howl but in three laps he lowered the track record 3 times.

[McGuire]

At one point the outboard motor tycoon Carl Kiekhaefer became interested in the hp claims for the 750cc Stanguellini, so he arranged to purchase one... which promptly blew itself to bits on the dyno. So he had the engine in the Stanguellini replaced with a Mercury outboard:

[Ray Bell]

I think you'll find that the smaller sports racing classes in the States saw a few of them...

And there was a Johnson V4 ran in a hillclimb car out of Melbourne back in the seventies.

[RTH]

Circa 1989 ADA's Group C sportscar used a Bonner V6 6litre motor boat engine which made the most extraordinary deep growl.

[McGuire]

To turn the story around... both the Crosley and Coventry Climax FW engines were successfully converted into outboard motors for series production.

[Stoatspeed]

UK-based hillclimb car with 2-stroke outboard engine was the tiny Voigt-Renwick special built and driven by violin maker Peter Voigt. It had a water-cooled 4-cylinder 500cc Konig engine and was the single cause of the spilt of the 500 Racing Car class into "modern" and "historic" divisions, since Peter took his car to class records at every hillclimb venue - typically 3 or 4 seconds inside previous records held by Coopers and the like!
There are several pictures in the "Personal photos from the hills" thread - just search BB for them.
The sound of this car was amazing - typical analogy was to "a swarm of angry bees".

Dave

[Stoatspeed]

Originally posted by RTH
Circa 1989 ADA's Group C sportscar used a Bonner V6 6litre motor boat engine which made the most extraordinary deep growl.

Leon Bachelier also used a Bonnr V6 in his SPA Sports Libre hillclimb car - as Richard says, a very unusual sound, quite low revving put very assertive! Buckets of torque .... just the thing for hillclimbs ... anyone know what became of the car? I left Blighty for the Colonies at the time ...

Dave

[David McKinney]

That Can-Am project rings a bell - unless I'm thinking of the engine(s) that drove the fans on the sucker car

There was a tiny single-seater in New Zealand in the mid/late '60s powered by, IIRC, a V4 Johnson. In an early test session it apparently matched the pace of a 2.5 Tasman car in a straight line, but was so tiny that a gust of wind caught it and blew it off the track, smashing it to pieces and badly injuring the driver/constructor
Again trusting to memory, I think the engine went into a sportscar built by the same man a few years later

[ralt12]

There was also the Andy Allen-built AMW 4 and 6-cylinder two-stroke boxer motors used in D/SR and C/SR, respectively. Andy's own crankcase with cylinders off an Arctic Cat snowmobile. In 1100cc, 6-cylinder guise, it was good for 185 hp with a pair of hugely inefficient 3-into-1 exhaust pipes, or 260 hp with proper expansion chambers. Not bad for 1986.

[T54]

There was indeed, an H-Modified sports racer with a 3-cylinder 2-stroke engine. It actually deserved a multi-page story with a cutaway in if I recall, a 1965 issue of Car and Driver. I have this and looked at it less than 2 months ago but am unable (early Alzheimer's disease I guess) to recall its name. I will search it, scan it and post it.
The car was very nicely built and had 3 megaphones sticking at an angle from the rear bodywork. I guess the idea of tuned expansion chambers was still a mystery then for some... Walter Kaaden and Ernst Degner were unknown names in California at that time.
The driver was wearing one of those bubble shields over an open-face Buco helmet popular then.
I recall that the engine may have been a Mercury outboard engine with Tillotson carbs.
I'll see what I can do to find the story.
Regards,

T54 :

[LotusElise]

Were Selwyn Edge's early racing Napiers powered by speedboat engines, or is that just the hallucinations of a lazy-eye sufferer?

[Stoatspeed]

Originally posted by David McKinney
That Can-Am project rings a bell - unless I'm thinking of the engine(s) that drove the fans on the sucker car

That would be the "Macs It Special" with four snowmobile (?) engines - excellent pictures in Pete Lton's CanAm bible. Aslo 4-wheel drive, I think - not surprisingly too complex for it's own good, but a great example of the reason for unlimited racing being so appealing to enthusiasts/nostalgists. The name of the driver/builder escapes me at the moment - I am at work and "the book" is safely at home.

Back to it, the boss is coming!

EDIT : Oops, sorry Pete LYONS!

[dbw]

here in the colonies...back in the '30-'40s ELTO powered midgets were a common sight...later there were water cooled conversions for harley twins specifically for the midget trade...

[raceannouncer2003]

Are you thinking of Dan Odenborg's Merc outboard powered Sceptre cars?

More here:

H - Mod

http://p081.ezboard....opicID=14.topic

http://www.tamsoldra...essupHBomb.html

Bigger one

http://sports.racer....eptre/page1.htm

I seem to remember Dan racing the bigger one at Westwood pro races in the 60's. I believe it was 6 cylinders?

The small one was at Seattle recently...very loud!

Vince Howlett, Victoria, B.C., Canada

[Bonde]

Good photos of the Mac's It Special Can-Am car may be found here: http://www.photoessa...macs/index.html

Funny, how two-strokes tend to flood the TNF threads these days...

[macoran]

I clearly remember some articles in Sports Car Graphic on the Sceptre and the Mac.
Gotta get the shovel out and dig up the attic again.

[T54]

Are you thinking of Dan Odenborg's Merc outboard powered Sceptre cars?

Yes I was and I found the article, it was in the very first issue of SCG from my library I put my paws on, talk about a lucky break. I can scan it if you wish.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by T54
Yes I was and I found the article, it was in the very first issue of SCG from my library I put my paws on, talk about a lucky break. I can scan it if you wish.

Why not?

Or even digitally photograph it. Just as good.

[macoran]

Originally posted by T54

Yes I was and I found the article, it was in the very first issue of SCG from my library I put my paws on, talk about a lucky break. I can scan it if you wish.

I'm in my second filing cabinet and haven't found it yet

[Dallas84]

Originally posted by David McKinney
That Can-Am project rings a bell - unless I'm thinking of the engine(s) that drove the fans on the sucker car

There was a tiny single-seater in New Zealand in the mid/late '60s powered by, IIRC, a V4 Johnson. In an early test session it apparently matched the pace of a 2.5 Tasman car in a straight line, but was so tiny that a gust of wind caught it and blew it off the track, smashing it to pieces and badly injuring the driver/constructor
Again trusting to memory, I think the engine went into a sportscar built by the same man a few years later

From memory I think the guy was Dennis Smith

[David McKinney]

Certainly was

[hiteknz]

Yes Dennis Smith it was ,his single seater crashed into the fence on the back straight at Pukekohe ,down by the kink and he suffered bad head injuries ,it was at the first Pukekohe meeting that was run not using the elbow and loop ,it was a wet dismal day ,I ran in the next practice session after his crash ,there was water laying every where down by where he went of and it made your car very unstable ,that might have contributed to his crash,it was close to the spot where Rod Coppins lost the Tec-Mec in similar conditions a couple of years before
Dennis recovered and built up a sports-racing car using the same engine ,he is still around he was at Ralph Watson's Funeral Service a couple of weeks ago

[Milan Fistonic]

This is a photo of the Smith car in its sports car guise. That's Dennis on the left and Alan Woolf behind the wheel.

[f1steveuk]

Didn't Russ Collins run a drag bike in the States with a 3.5 litre Mercury V8 two stroke motor from an outboard?

And of course John Cobb's land speed Napier Railton was powered by two Napier Lions from Betty Carstairs racing boat Estelle

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David McKinney
That Can-Am project rings a bell - unless I'm thinking of the engine(s) that drove the fans on the sucker car.....

The 'sucker' engine was from a snowmobile, according to contemporary reports...

[McGuire]

There have been a zillion two-stroke powered cars in North American road racing, even to this day in the D/SR and F500 classes in the SCCA.

However, among all these two-strokes, countless really, outboards are pretty rare... probably because they are not very well-suited to automotive use, making them difficult to adapt. Also, big outboards are not exactly cheap. If you really must run a two-stroke, a snowmobile or motorcycle engine would probably make more sense.

However, one outboard-engined sports racer of the 1960's that comes to mind is the Ferret... actually there was a succession of them in both front and rear-engined versions. The Ferret was powered by a 75hp (61 CID) McCulloch triple... installed in laydown or pancake configuration with a Harley Davidson transmission. Was very light, around 600 lbs. Ran all over the Midwest at Road America, Blackhawk etc. Can't remember the builder's name but it seems to me the car came out of Detroit and a group of Chrysler employees were involved.

[gmw]

Pete Dawson was the ferret builder/driver.

[Terry Walker]

The Odenborg Sceptre was, I am sure, the car I remember reading about. Thanks for all those replies - I had no idea there were so many outboard powered racers.

[T54]

Here we go:



and...

[WDH74]

Originally posted by Rosemayer
SCCA Runoffs year before last a gentleman from Madison WI. runs a C/SR with a Mecury black max 6 cylinder 2 stroke with expansion chambers. I watched him at Black Hawk Farms during practise the car made an unearthly howl but in three laps he lowered the track record 3 times.

I believe I've seen this car as well, and may have a photo of it somewhere. No idea what it's called, though.

-Wm.

[petefenelon]

My favourite "crazy racing engine" is probably the twin-cylinder sawn-in-half BDA that used to feature in a very quick and loud Mini! Perfectly good way of using the good half of one that'd gone pop.

[Bonde]

Reminds me of the DFV with two cylinders blanked off to make a 2L F2 engine. Was it ever built?

Weren't one pot removed from 1000ccm V-twins used "two-way" in early 500cc F3 days? One car could then be used in two classes on the same day simply be removing or installing the second cylinder, pison and conrod and blanking off the opening in the crank case...

[ggnagy]

Originally posted by WDH74


I believe I've seen this car as well, and may have a photo of it somewhere. No idea what it's called, though.

-Wm.

Are you perhaps referring to Jeff Miller's Wynnfurst/Kohler?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Bonde
Reminds me of the DFV with two cylinders blanked off to make a 2L F2 engine. Was it ever built?

Cosworth admit to two unraced 2.0l F2 engines, a 90-degree V8 and a 120-degree V6....

[Rosemayer]

Are you perhaps referring to Jeff Miller's Wynnfurst/Kohler?

When I first saw the car it had Merc power I guess he switched to Kohler. Merc's are very expensive.

[tsp_mach_1]

Originally posted by dbw
here in the colonies...back in the '30-'40s ELTO powered midgets were a common sight...later there were water cooled conversions for harley twins specifically for the midget trade...

And just this past weekend I got to see one of these ELTO powered midgets (through the smoke) on the track at a vintage car show/race. There was also a Drake powered midget there as well as well (along with numerous Offy powered and some Chevy II 4 cylinder, flatheads and a couple of hemi powered too).

Seeing this thread finally inspired me to register for this forum after many months of lurking...

[Bonde]

Originally posted by petefenelon:
Cosworth admit to two unraced 2.0l F2 engines, a 90-degree V8 and a 120-degree V6....

The V8 must've been the one with a pair of cylinders blanked off as the 2L F2 regulations had a limit of 6 cylinders max. The 120-degree V6 sounds interesting - like a scaled up Ferrari 156, but with a much narrower valve angle I suspect, but even then it must've been pre-groundeffects as I would have thought a 120-degree engine too intrusive on the ground effects tunnels?

Unraced, yes - but also unbuilt?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by tsp_mach_1
And just this past weekend I got to see one of these ELTO powered midgets (through the smoke) on the track at a vintage car show/race. There was also a Drake powered midget there as well as well (along with numerous Offy powered and some Chevy II 4 cylinder, flatheads and a couple of hemi powered too).

Seeing this thread finally inspired me to register for this forum after many months of lurking...

Welcome to your new home...

Do you think you can get in closer next time and bring back some digital images for our appreciation?

[tsp_mach_1]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Welcome to your new home...

Do you think you can get in closer next time and bring back some digital images for our appreciation?

I did get some (decidely amateur) photos that I will be happy to share when I get a few moments of free time and can get them posted somwhere....

There are pictures of the event, but not of the specific cars I mentioned here ...

http://www.westcapit...of_fame_bbq.htm

West Capital Raceway (sadly closed in 1980) is the track that made me a fan of racing ... used to go there as a child.... (I am not affiliated with the above website, just a fan).

[Vicuna]

Originally posted by Milan Fistonic
This is a photo of the Smith car in its sports car guise. That's Dennis on the left and Alan Woolf behind the wheel.

The Smith Spyder

[r.atlos]

I just stumbled across this thread by accident; I recall thumbing through a Spanish magazine at some point in the mid-1980s and seeing a picture of someone running a Lola T290 (or derivative) with an outboard engine in Spanish hillclimbs. Unfortunately, the rest of the mag was about tin-top racing, so I decided to put it back on the shelf ...

May be some of our Spanish contributors could comment as to whether or not my recollection is playing me tricks.

[martyk]

Originally posted by tsp_mach_1


I did get some (decidely amateur) photos that I will be happy to share when I get a few moments of free time and can get them posted somwhere....

There are pictures of the event, but not of the specific cars I mentioned here ...

http://www.westcapit...of_fame_bbq.htm

West Capital Raceway (sadly closed in 1980) is the track that made me a fan of racing ... used to go there as a child.... (I am not affiliated with the above website, just a fan).

Like This one?: I don't remember the specifics, but I think it was some sort of outboard. They mentioned it ran on kerosene or cooking oil or something besides gasoline. And it smoked like a locomotive!!


Hosted on Fotki

See here form more from the event:

http://public.fotki....6_all_american/

[Graham Clayton]

And there was a Johnson V4 ran in a hillclimb car out of Melbourne back in the seventies.

Ray,
I have come across another Johnson powered car.

In 1963 Sydney TQ (three-quarter) speedcar driver Nev Waters' car was powered by a Johnson motor.

[bradbury west]

OT a little but ISTR that Bill Milliken's camber car used/uses a flat 6, 2 stroke snowmobile/boat engine, and don't forget the Guidobaldi over in France; 8cyl 2 stroke blown radial, driving through 2 90deg angles before it got to the gearbox/diff. I believe it only ever practised before the driver got motion sickness from the flopover suspension design - it was designed so the wheels leaned like a motorcycle in the corners. Do a BB Search, we have discussed it before. It appeared on the front cover of a US car magazine as I have scans somewhere here.
Roger Lund

[jatwarks]

Off the top of my head I remember a rash of Konig powered devices in 'three wheeler class (sidecar) racing', as well as Owen Greenwood's infamous mini which consisted of the front end of a Mini Cooper with central twin rear wheels. Then there was Impetus, and outfit powered by a Hillman Imp engine to some success.

I also vaguely remember someone from Cosworth, trying to race a BDA engined inshore powerboat, being blocked by Yamaha who wouldn't let him use their transmission in case he beat them.

[Patrick Fletcher]

google .. Konig + Newcombe .. lot of good stuff there.
I have some very nice photos of the installation taken six months ago. If you want to see then email and I will send on.

[ianselva]

Reminds me of the DFV with two cylinders blanked off to make a 2L F2 engine. Was it ever built?

Weren't one pot removed from 1000ccm V-twins used "two-way" in early 500cc F3 days? One car could then be used in two classes on the same day simply be removing or installing the second cylinder, piston and conrod and blanking off the opening in the crank case...

I'd be surprised if that was the sort of job you'd do in the paddock as you have to split the flywheels to remove the conrod. I suspect they might have just swapped engines for one already built in that format.