137 replies to this topic

[fastlegs]

Just read Michael Schumacher is worth over $800 million.

Not bad for a guy who started out as a go-cart mechanic.

According to his manager, Willi Weber, MS will make up to $26 million in 2007 from his current endorsements etc. Willi Weber wants make MS an "advertising emperor" in the coming years.

Full story: http://www.f1i.com/c...nt/view/5215/1/

Also read that MS has given away $50 million over the past 4 years to various charities.

Full story: http://www.feedmef1....rticle&sid=4935

[RDM]

And for Ferrari he's been priceless.

[logic]

Does MS do whatever Weber want's him to do? Does he want to be advertising emperor?

[angst]

Originally posted by logic
Does MS do whatever Weber want's him to do? Does he want to be advertising emperor?

If somebody had made me $800m I'd be tempted to do what they wanted me to.

[logic]

Originally posted by angst


If somebody had made me $800m I'd be tempted to do what they wanted me to.

Why?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by fastlegs
Also read that MS has given away $50 million over the past 4 years to various charities.

That's generous. Albeit that his earnings for 2006 are estimated at $72,800,000, which equates to a tax rate of around 17%, which is about a third of what I pay percentagewise.

[baddog]

Originally posted by ensign14
That's generous. Albeit that his earnings for 2006 are estimated at $72,800,000, which equates to a tax rate of around 17%, which is about a third of what I pay percentagewise.

Better to charity than to government.

[Hiatt]

Originally posted by ensign14
That's generous. Albeit that his earnings for 2006 are estimated at $72,800,000, which equates to a tax rate of around 17%, which is about a third of what I pay percentagewise.

I seem to remember that his charity gifts where deductable as well?

[Hiatt]

Originally posted by baddog


Better to charity than to government.

True. Who needs schools, healthcare and pensions.

[logic]

Originally posted by Hiatt

True. Who needs schools, healthcare and pensions.

MS do not run society.

[RDM]

Originally posted by Hiatt

True. Who needs schools, healthcare and pensions.

Or illegal wars?

[logic]

Originally posted by baddog


Better to charity than to government.

Specially if you live in foreign country.

[baddog]

Originally posted by logic

Specially if you live in foreign country.

And who can blame wealthy germans for leaving? Why should you be gouged to the outrageous extent german governments want to?

[Hiatt]

Is there anything that Schumi could do where he was not defended to the last drop of blood by you lot?

[baddog]

Originally posted by Hiatt
Is there anything that Schumi could do where he was not defended to the last drop of blood by you lot?

Anything bad.

[Hiatt]

Originally posted by baddog


And who can blame wealthy germans for leaving? Why should you be gouged to the outrageous extent german governments want to?

Exactly. Who needs schools... sorry, done that already.

No, you are right, only poor people working in supermarkets should pay taxes

[Hiatt]

Originally posted by baddog


Anything bad.

But nothing he do can ever look bad in your eyes, darling. In fact, I am sure that things that you have previously tought were bad will start to look good when Schumi does it. You know that he has a lot of Cliff Richard albums in his collection?

By the way, completely off topic of course - who is your favourite singer?

[baddog]

Originally posted by Hiatt

But nothing he do can ever look bad in your eyes, darling. In fact, I am sure that things that you have previously tought were bad will start to look good when Schumi does it. You know that he has a lot of Cliff Richard albums in his collection?

By the way, completely off topic of course - who is your favourite singer?

But you have no idea of good or bad, or taste or bad taste, of morality or immorality.. how would you know how someone else is reacting to it?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Jesus, the depth of Schumacher hatred astounds me. Maybe he should take all the money back?

[Hiatt]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Jesus, the depth of Schumacher hatred astounds me. Maybe he should take all the money back?

I think he did.

[kar]

Originally posted by Hiatt
Is there anything that Schumi could do where he was not defended to the last drop of blood by you lot?

Is there _anything_ you wouldn't attack him for?

I don't doubt he has donated a far greater PROPORTION of his wealth to charity than you ever had.

I can certainly understand people attacking Michael for some of the things he's done on the track, but off of it he is a model human being, and someone a lot of people could look towards as an example of how to be.

You though, (and I ususally reserve personal attacks for all but the most preposterous posts, and you've made several of them in this thread) ... are a particularly pathetic example in comparision.

[Hiatt]

Originally posted by kar


Is there _anything_ you wouldn't attack him for?

I don't doubt he has donated a far greater PROPORTION of his wealth to charity than you ever had.

I can certainly understand people attacking Michael for some of the things he's done on the track, but off of it he is a model human being, and someone a lot of people could look towards as an example of how to be.

You though, (and I ususally reserve personal attacks for all but the most preposterous posts, and you've made several of them in this thread) ... are a particularly pathetic example in comparision.

Where do I attack him? If you had any reading ability you would see tat if I "attack" anyone it is the posters that thinks he is such an admirable young man, handsome as well, because he gives to charity, when he in fact can deduct all that money from taxes and it does not cost him a cent. I do not hesitate to attack anyone that claims it is better to give to charity than to pay taxes however, since that is an incredible stupid point of view in any democracy. Unless you have money to hide of course.

But please continue to shoot at the messanger, I understand that is a backbone reflex of any Schumi fan.

[valachus]

Originally posted by Hiatt

Where do I attack him? If you had any reading ability you would see tat if I "attack" anyone it is the posters that thinks he is such an admirable young man, handsome as well, because he gives to charity, when he in fact can deduct all that money from taxes and it does not cost him a cent . I do not hesitate to attack anyone that claims it is better to give to charity than to pay taxes however, since that is an incredible stupid point of view in any democracy. Unless you have money to hide of course.

In which country on the face of our beautiful blue planet is it possible to equate your charity donations with your fiscal duties and not be forced to pay taxes too for the remaining fiscal income? E.g. I have 100 fiscal units revenue in a country with 20% income tax and 100% deductible charity donations, if I donate 20 units for charity that still leaves 80 units of revenue that will be taxed at 20%. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[baddog]

Originally posted by Hiatt
when he in fact can deduct all that money from taxes and it does not cost him a cent.

Oh god.. let you be your own accountant..

[SeanValen]

Good for him

Good for charities

[petri]

Originally posted by baddog


Better to charity than to government.

German tax-payers have paid his education and health care; a pay-back time, don't you think?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by baddog


Better to charity than to government.

I agree with that to a large extent. By giving to charity rather than to quangos, spin doctors and Gordon ****ing Brown to piss away means you have control of what happens to your own earned money.

[baddog]

Originally posted by petri


German tax-payers have paid his education and health care; a pay-back time, don't you think?

how many times over do you imagine he paid that back while living in germany? Its the German governments fault that most of their wealthy leave.

[petri]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Jesus, the depth of Schumacher hatred astounds me. Maybe he should take all the money back?

The same goes to our F1 millionaires, Mika H. & Kimi, too. It's not a matter of hating MS..BTW, Marcus Grönholm still pays his taxes to his homeland - a rare exception, indeed!

[valachus]

Looking around for some more info on the Swiss taxation system I found these:
http://www.caymannet...i...nd - A.html
http://www.swissinfo...107&sid=5563674
http://www.newsfox.c...c?pte=050606022

So apparently Switzerland allows for rich expats to come to the country and negotiate their tax level with the local authorities, on condition that they don't work in the country. Since car racing is forbidden in Switzerland, MS and other figures of racing (JYS, DC) are residents there. MS appears to pay a flat, negotiated tax between $500.000 and $1.7 million instead of the 40-50% income tax that he would have payed if he stood in Germany. Good for him. I'd do the same in a second if I could buy myself a 2 million SFR residence there and keep my job outside of Switzerland.

Bottom line: even with his flat tax contribution MS is probably in the top 1% Swiss net tax contributors. A fair deal for him and for Switzerland, but probably not even close to satisfactory for those who'll add this to his "cheater" rap.

PS: as for the "pay back to his motherland" line of argument: how freaking high must have been the german public expenditure with the young MS? more than a few tens of thousandths DM? and his parents, I assume, were taxpayers too, so it's not like he grew up on social assistance handouts. Put in a measly sum that's not even yours (the state does not GIVE ITS money away, it only collects the taxpayers' - e.g. one's parents' - money and redistributes it) and except to get back hundreds of millions in exchange? Cry me a river.

[mikedeering]

OK, how can I set up a charity? From now on I'm giving all my income to the mikedeering foundation for reducing tax liability.

I think there is a distinction between donations being tax deductable and donations being a substitute for tax.

That said MS probably pays out less in taxation and charitable donations as a proportion than I do. However, I don't see how you can attack Schumacher for this. Charitable donations are still that - donations. Schumacher could have hung on to the $50m and be better off than he is, while a lot of charities would be a lot worse off. The charitable donations and tax issues are distinct.

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by valachus

Bottom line: even with his flat tax contribution MS is probably in the top 1% Swiss net tax contributors. A fair deal for him and for Switzerland, but probably not even close to satisfactory for those who'll add this to his "cheater" rap.

Of course, viewed the other way, he is probably in the bottom 1% of contributors as a proportion of income in Switzerland as well.

[petri]

Originally posted by baddog


how many times over do you imagine he paid that back while living in germany? .

I have no idea, maybe you can tell us. When did he move to Switzerland anyway?
For example MH paid a large amount of his income to his manager Keke in the beginning of his career. Usually a driver is in depth first couple of years and moves away when the real big money starts flooding in.

[Hiatt]

Originally posted by mikedeering
However, I don't see how you can attack Schumacher for this.

Are you also refering to me?

I do NOT attack Schumi for his charity, I DO however think that anyone that thinks he is a NICE GUY because he gives to charity should look at the bigger picture.

YES, maybe Germany is putting to much tax-responsibility on their rich people, but they put quite a lot of responsibility on the poor ones as well. And they are not welcome to do any deal with any swiss authorities. BUT, in the end I don't give a **** about what Schumi s doing with his money, how much he have or whatever. It is only when people starts to glorify tax-escape that I get upset.

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by petri


I have no idea, maybe you can tell us. When did he move to Switzerland anyway?
For example MH paid a large amount of his income to his manager Keke in the beginning of his career. Usually a driver is in depth first couple of years and moves away when the real big money starts flooding in.

I thought he lived in Monaco before getting married and then mvoed to Switzerland. I guess at some point he must have lived in Germany!

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Hiatt
when he in fact can deduct all that money from taxes and it does not cost him a cent. I do not hesitate to attack anyone that claims it is better to give to charity than to pay taxes however, since that is an incredible stupid point of view in any democracy. Unless you have money to hide of course.

Obviously you have no clue on earth how a tax deduction works.

BTW I give money, for example, to a fund that allows for children who otherwise could not afford the fees, to play recreation level sports. Am I being stupid? Should sports and other activities only be reserved for rich kids?

[kar]

I don't think Hiatt really does have a clue, no.

[valachus]

Originally posted by Hiatt

Are you also refering to me?

I do NOT attack Schumi for his charity, I DO however think that anyone that thinks he is a NICE GUY because he gives to charity should look at the bigger picture.

YES, maybe Germany is putting to much tax-responsibility on their rich people, but they put quite a lot of responsibility on the poor ones as well. And they are not welcome to do any deal with any swiss authorities. BUT, in the end I don't give a **** about what Schumi s doing with his money, how much he have or whatever. It is only when people starts to glorify tax-escape that I get upset.

Tax escape is a different thing altogether than tax evasion. And one's earned money is his. If one's fortune and abilities allow him to move to another country, then that's his business alone, and nobody else's. Nobody should be a slave of a state, the property of one's nation.
Even moreso, if one came from rags to riches and has the money to move to another country, then it follows that, in a high tax-rate country, in the absence of criminal convictions for tax evasion or fraud, he already payed more in taxes than he benefitted from the state in his country of origin. So put up or shut up.

[angst]

Originally posted by logic

Why?

Errm.... you really need to ask? If somebody has advised you and you have made $800m, then I'd look upon that advice as good advice. Consistently good advice. Why would I then decide not to take any notice of them?

[kNt]

I think our (Switzerlands) system of taxation for rich foreigners is a bit to lazy, since they're paying taxes not on their income but based on an estimated cost of living.

But the biggest advantage for the rich is the less stringent handling of tax evasion punishment and a not to complex system. E.g. in Germany there are loads of wierd tax avoiding tricks, you have to hire loads of lawyers - and in the end, if you hire the wrong ones like B.Becker did, you're faced with prison.

[Hiatt]

Originally posted by tifosi


Obviously you have no clue on earth how a tax deduction works.

BTW I give money, for example, to a fund that allows for children who otherwise could not afford the fees, to play recreation level sports. Am I being stupid? Should sports and other activities only be reserved for rich kids?

And what exactly have that to do with tax deduction?

[Teez]

The usual idiocy from the usual suspects. Apparently anyone who gives donations and gets a tax break is a cheater and unworthy of praise. Or does that apply only to Michael Schumacher? I wonder how many of the bashers here get tax receipts for any charities they may donate to...

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Hiatt

And what exactly have that to do with tax deduction?

Charitable Contributions are tax deductible.

[monaco]

The many people who have benefited from Michael's donations worldwide are certainly not cynical about his acts of concern for others. I also like the fact that his donations are transparent - he donates the money through agencies like UNESCO which manages the projects themselves. He is also an ambassador for this agency of the United Nations.

In addition to donating financial help, Michael has also organized charity football matches every now and then. Plus he plays in the games as a drawing card for ticket sales.

In my book, this is admirable!

I am hoping that after his retirement from Formula One, that Michael will devote even more time to philantrophy.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Teez
The usual idiocy from the usual suspects. Apparently anyone who gives donations and gets a tax break is a cheater and unworthy of praise.

To me it's more of a condemnation of the domestic tax regime. It should not be worthwhile to dodge tax and cost the domestic exchequer a fortune just because the local tax is at toxic. How much money has Germany lost cos MS and other sportsmen are able to dodge tax by going abroad?

Then again, I abhor the mentality that you move abroad to save £40m on your £100m fortune...as if you can't live on £60m...and **** those who are earning £20k per year and have to pay a big chunk of that cos they can't afford to move to tax dodging areas.

And that's not a knock on MS but probably on all the drivers, team owners, sponsor chairmen...

[F1Johnny]

Originally posted by Hiatt

Where do I attack him? If you had any reading ability you would see tat if I "attack" anyone it is the posters that thinks he is such an admirable young man, handsome as well, because he gives to charity, when he in fact can deduct all that money from taxes and it does not cost him a cent. I do not hesitate to attack anyone that claims it is better to give to charity than to pay taxes however, since that is an incredible stupid point of view in any democracy. Unless you have money to hide of course.

But please continue to shoot at the messanger, I understand that is a backbone reflex of any Schumi fan.

Hiatt, you are absolutely and completely ignorant of tax affairs. Let's use an example.

Tax rate of 20%. If MS gives $10 million (which he reportedly did after the Tsunamis), he saves $2 million in taxes ($10M X 20%). BUT HE GAVE AWAY $10 MILLION SO HIS NET OUTFLOW IS $8 MILLION. Do you follow now.

Would you feel better if he said he gave away $8 million and not $10 million.

Be objective for once, FFS.

[kNt]

The Tax MS pays is NOT BASED on his income, but an approximation on his cost of living. Thus none of his charity donations are detuctable.

[valachus]

Heh, I love F1 forums.

So far, one could expect discuss there mechanics, aerodynamics, law and regulations, sporting ethics, video and telemetry forensics etc.

Now we see that there's an entire universe of accounting topics to be discussed. Can't wait for budget and salary caps to be introduced when cost-cutting will be taken seriously by FIA, imagine the wealth of information about corporate accounting, budget out-sourcing and tax havens that awaits to be discovered and debated to death

[K-One]

Originally posted by kNt
The Tax MS pays is NOT BASED on his income, but an approximation on his cost of living. Thus none of his charity donations are detuctable.

Since he is known to be quite cheap guy, the taxes ain't probably that high either

[Hiatt]

Originally posted by Teez
The usual idiocy from the usual suspects. Apparently anyone who gives donations and gets a tax break is a cheater and unworthy of praise. Or does that apply only to Michael Schumacher? I wonder how many of the bashers here get tax receipts for any charities they may donate to...

Is it so ****ing hard to understand - I don't give a **** what Schumi does with his money, I am not condemning him for it, I do not hate him for it, I just find it ABOVE NAIVE to praise him for giving some charity when he at the same time do whatever possible to avoid paying tax.

There is nothing wrong with charity in principle, but if we are going to pretend that we have a functional society, a functional democracy, then we should also trust our governments to put the tax money where they are needed. At my kids kindergarten for instance there is 20 kids in each group, taken care of by two people, usually only one of them is actually qualified. Five of the kids are under 2 years old. Everything that they do there we have to pay extra. Swimming, sports, music. I don't want to think about how it will be when it is time for school because we already pay everything we earn, after running costs and food are payed, for childcare. It could be cheaper, but then she will be left out on everything that the others do and somehow that does not seem fair. The situation is understandable because there is very little money to distribute. But it would be more if the poeple who actually HAVE money and EARN money would contribute. Schumi donated to the Tsunami victims, yes great, but so did my government. And throught them, I.

So please separarate the issues. Schumi is an individual, he does what he wants with his money. But tax planning and tax escaping is a problem that concerns every individual. If someone is advertising tax escaping as a GOOD THING, then I am going to tell that person that he is wrong. It has nothing to do with hating Schumi at all.

Why is it that every ****ing time when there is something that CAN POSSIBLY BE INTERTPRETED as being against Schumi there is a zillion of idiots that starts screaming "HATER!!!!" all the time?