39 replies to this topic

[Megatron]

In 1986, they won twice with Senna and in 1987, they did the same with Senna and Honda power.

In 1988, they were horrible despite the Honda and Piquet. In 89, they went to Judd and in Belguim they DNQ'd both cars.

And a steady decline until the end of 1994....

What exactly caused it?

[Ray Bell]

Perhaps the loss of key people - starting with Chapman - and then motivation slipping. I have got to say, too, that I don't think Peter Collins was the right man for the job. He got the job by spying on Williams, I think, but if he was anything like his brother, he was pretty much useless.
More of a spectator than a competitor, I feel, but he may have changed since I knew him.

[Eric McLoughlin]

The loss of Chapman was almost a fatal blow for the team. Circumstances took an upturn with the arrival of Senna but once he left it was downhill all the way. On a more general note, how many teams survive the departure of their original founders by more than a couple of years? The only salvation seems to come from the arrival of equally determined individuals - Ecclestone at Brabham, Dennis at McLaren for example. Ferrari, I think, is an exception as it has been bankrolled by FIAT millions for over thirty years.

[Ray Bell]

McLaren could hardly have been said to have been in limbo through the years after Bruce's death. The drivers of the day, people like Hulme, Revson and Scheckter, were in the hunt for a win in any race in the M19s, Fittipaldi went one better, too, and so did Hunt. It may have been something of a decline when the M25 came along, but it was the car, not the team, and they overcame it.
When did Dennis come in?

[Don Capps]

In a nutshell: it was to a large extent the off-track issues surrounding the Essex & DeLorean monies and then Chapman's death...

The death of Colin Chapman left Team Lotus in a serious lurch at just the wrong moment. Remember, Lotus was Chapman. Without his guidance, chicanery, genius, charisma, and leadership, Team Lotus simply was not Team Lotus. I am convinced that Chapman would have beat the 'rap' over the DeLorean issues -- after all Chapman was indeed Colin Chapman... However, the issue of money -- or the lack thereof to be accurate -- probably could have been resolved in some fashion, but Life is different these days it seems. Think about how few ever remember Lotus and how fewer still recall it as the team to beat...

The Battles with the FISA over the 88 and the questions about the Essex and DeLorean finances put significant stress on already stressful person and while his mind was clear, his heart failed him.

[Megatron]

What was the controversy over Essex?

Wasn't that a sponsor of Lotus in the late 70's/early80's

[Wolf]

It's slightly off the topic but, as I recall, GM owned Lotus (Cars Ltd.) for some time and made them make Elise- the only front driven Lotus road car. Needless to say, it didn't do well. With Collin around that would not have happened (I mean the car).

[Ray Bell]

A disaster, you can't have a front wheel drive Lotus... even the 4WD ones were stretching things... but watch, they'll probably become collectors' items!

[Roger Clark]

Chapman's skill (no, genius) was in radical new concepts that nobody else had thought of and that moved racing car design to a new level, From the early 60s he left it to others to sort out the detail. Nowadays, thanks mainly to the regulations, car design is all about attention to detail. I don't think it would attract Chapman; in fact he waaas already becoming frustrated by it at he time of his death.


the front wheel drive Lotus was the Elan. The Elise is the current mid-engined sports car which is totally in the Chapman tradition.

[Wolf]

I do beg everybodys pardon for mistakes (and blunders) I occasionaly make. I do do tend to err in the heat of typing.

[Ray Bell]

No matter how bad the old Elan was in (detail), the later one is unworthy of its name.
The Elise looks like fun, that's the one they have a race series for, isn't it?

[Ali_G]

The loss of Senna. The drivers that came after him were not able to fill his shoes.

Niall

[Ray Bell]

I think management had a lot more to do with it than drivers. Blame Peter Collins, I say.

[Maldwyn]

Essex were a co-sponsor on the Martini Lotus of 1979 then became title sponsor in 1980. I believe they were a Monaco based oil company headed by David Theime (?)and also sponsored the Penske team in the States.
Their time in F1 was spent throwing lavish car launch parties (Lotus 88) and entertaining in the Monte Carlo harbour!!
As JPS returned to Lotus the Essex name slowly disappeared and by then Theime had been arrested and he too vanished from F1.

[BT52]

Just to correct the error above, the Elise is REAR wheel drive and had absolutely nothing to do with GM.

The Elan was front wheel drive and was generally considered to have outstanding handling, but.. I would still rather keep my Elise.

[Huw Jenjin]

A couple of notes. The front wheel drive Elan was much maligned. It was quicker around Lotus's Hethel test track than the other production cars lotus were making at the time.In the dry the road holding was simply stunning, and the handling was also way ahead of its competition.
The front suspension used a patented sled system for suspension location, and the car wiped the floor with the opposition with regard to dynamics.There was a traction problem in the wet from a standstill.
The Elan 2 (or M100) bombed because the press decided Lotus sportscars should be rear wheel drive. having an Isuzu engine didn't help, not because it was a bad engine, but simply because it held no pedigree. detail design, quality and finish were in the true lotus tradition, appalling, hence Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious. The Lotus Elan was no worse than any Lotus that preceded it, and a good deal better in many ways.
As for the GP team, I feel Peter Collins has been maligned, cirtainly in respect to his handling of Lotus and numerous attempts to save them. That he got involved in the ugly ending is a shame, but he saved Johnny Herbert's career, and gave Mika Hakinen his chance, and they both did respectably well. I feel that taking on Guy Edwards was the beginning of the end. Nelson Piquet was washed up when he went to Lotus, and just syphoned money out.
I think they just got caught out on the engine merry go round twice on the trot, and once you stop looking like a serious team thats the end of it.

[Ray Bell]

Maybe I have a mental block on Peter Collins, I just can't help but think of him as the kid in the pub having a drink with Vaughan Coburn. And Paul's little brother, which spelled handicap from the start. Paul ultimately had a heart attack and pulled off the road and died at an Historic meeting at Winton, not so old, really, maybe 50 or so.

[Racer.Demon]

Huw: you could hardly call a reigning World Champion a wash-out. However, it's true that Nelson's motivation was seriously lacking once he found out the car was a dog - these things tend to happen to triple champions who don't want risk everything while fighting over sixth place. But the car being a lemon was the problem in the first place.

I think the trouble started when Ducarouge left and was replaced by Frank Dernie. The active suspension of 99T and Senna's talent covered things up for 1987 but in 1988 the 100T (with Honda power and all) was simply a poor car - and Dernie has been known for producing quite a few lemon designs in his days as a chief designer.

He was good as an engineer at Williams, though. Hasn't he returned to his old profession? Does anyone know who he's working for today?

I do agree that hiring Guy Edwards made things progressively worse...

[Falcadore]

Ray,
Paul Collins didn't die at a historic meeting, he was in a Formula Holden at the time, one of the strange Liston creations, and none of them, not even the disappeared Elfin FA891 or Brian Sampson's Cheetah Mk 9 could be considered historic. It was at the Winton 1994 Super Touring (TOCA) Championship Round. The Silver Star award for best performance in the Gold Star by an aluminium bodied Formula Holden (the bastardised Australian version of Formula 3000) was later named for Paul Collins. Or that may have changed last year to include carbon fibre chassis over 5 years old.
yours
Mark Jones

[Barry Lake]

Mark
It seems you have gone to the trouble to look this up. I don't suppose you could give me an exact date on the meeting could you?

[Ray Bell]

And there I was thinking he was in an old Lotus... I was too far from the action, obviously. Barry, how come Mark, you and I are posting at 2:30am? Sorry, only 1:30 for Mark.

[Gil Bouffard]

The death of Colin Chapman was the death knell for Lotus F1. Not because of innovation, but rather, vision. Chapman's vision for Lotus was never communicated. If it was it went to people incapable of performing the task.

The Essex fiasco got so bad that Chapman refused to put the logo on the car ( I think it was at Austria) until Thieme paid Chapman what was owed. I always thought that David Thieme had that sleazy look about him.

Sorta like the Sears Point IMSA race when Andial refused to give John Paul Sr. a Porsche motor until he was paid. Paul Senior disappeared into San Francisco and when he returned he had a handful of cash!

Then there were the Whittington brothers who also financed their racing through drugs.

Didn't somebody get caught, in Europe, smuggling drugs in their transporter?

Gil

Gil

[Falcadore]

Barry,
I certianly could give you a date. 19th June 1994.

I pulled this down from the under (admittedly slow) development FOHORIX database. The Formula Holden version of VESRIX. Although I want to move away from the -RIX suffix if possible to distance ourselves futher from FORIX. FOHRED?

The VESRIX engine has the potential to be easily adapted to many categories, that's something Shane Rogers and I and looking at long term. In the mean time VESRIX makes a fine beta tester.

As for the late hour, I'm working on a VESRIX press release for publiation prior to the Queensland 500.

yours
Mark Jones

[Ray Bell]

Here I was thinking it was maybe 1997, but it had to be further back, when I had no contact with racing... I was doing the Newsletter from 1996. That's why I knew so little about it.

[mat1]

Thanks, Huw, for your comments on the elan2 (M100).

Everybody is parroting about this car, but it was (at the time at least) one of the best you could buy. Much underrated, and what is wrong with an engine which works I fail to see.

As for the Elise, again parroting is the thing. The first series tended to bump steer at the rear, I am told, but they were almost never criticized for it. Yes, by Gordon Murray, but the motoring press were hailing it as a "true sportscar" and so on. Perhaps it is, but in many cases the motoring press is talking just about image and design. And the Elise has the right image, and is beautiful.

But whether it is as good as the Elan2?

mat

[BT52]

I have driven both and the Elise is a totally different animal.
It communicates with you constantly allowing you to know exactly what is going on and where it's limits are. Given a twisty road the Elise would murder the Elan. (Given a straight road an Elise 135 would leave it for dead there as well)

With the Elan I never had a clue where they were, and with the track being about the same as the wheelbase if the rear ever did get out of line it was already too late. Most of the time it would only understeer though (predictably).

I read Gordan Murray's article and I reckon he got a duff model. It didn't sound like my Elise at all.

The main difference is that the Elise is way way more fun and feels much more special.
The way I see it, Chapman would have liked the Elise and pretended the Elan didn't exist.

[Barry Lake]

Mark
Thanks for that exact date on Paul Collins. I could tell you an interesting story but it's too long and involved. You'll have to wait for The Book of Untold Stories of Australian Motor Sport (to be published shortly after my funeral).
As for the rest of that post, I haven't a clue what you're talking about. Some day I'm going to have to learn about web sites but I don't think I'm quite ready yet.
I will wait for the technology to be refined some more, I think.
It's 4.00 am, almost bed time...

[Ray Bell]

Starting with the number of meetings in succession he had the Pat Burke team cars arrive just in time for the discretionary practice session at the end of the day...

[mat1]

Quote

Originally posted by BT52


I read Gordan Murray's article and I reckon he got a duff model. It didn't sound like my Elise at all.

I don't know. I have driven a number of times on the Nurburgring, and there are a couple of curves which show bumpsteer without remorse. Those were the places i have seen Elises in the armco. I have heard the story of one of the drivers, and it confirmed the remarks of Murray (which I didn't know at that time, BTW).

On a twisty road, good quick FWD cars are usually quicker than comparable RWD cars. Only on nice, flat, dry tarmac the advantages of RWD become really important.

I think i would be quicker in the Elan. That says a lot about my driving capabilities, and yes, I am no World champion.

mat1

[Falcadore]

Barry,
You remeber that hard copy I gave you at Lakeside Konica Lites meeting of Mal Rose profile? That was VESRIX.

http://v8sp10.nectar.com.au/vesrix

Mal Rose's page
http://v8sp10.nectar...prof.cgi?id=108

and his race history...
http://v8sp10.nectar...d=108&sc=-t-d-r

yours
Mark Jones

[Gil Bouffard]

You bunch got way off topic with all this Elise/Elan stuff!

The original post had to do with why Lotus aint in F1 anymore.

Gil

[Eric McLoughlin]

So, we got off topic a bit - quite normal for this forum. Just to compound the "off topicness", I've now driven an Elise and my Seven on the same day for a direct bit of comparative testing and I can confirm without a doubt that the Seven is still a more responsive car. My Seven has a 1600 Ford Crossflow and I much prefer the torque characteristics of this engine over the Rover K in the Elise. However, the "K" is now the standard Seven engine as well.

I take Ray's point that McLaren did quite well between Bruce's death in 1970 and the eventual putchase by Ron Dennis' Project Four company in (I think) 1980. The team T believe was in decline by the late 70's and would have sunk if Dennis had not taken over.

[Ray Bell]

I thought we covered that when Chapman's death, the names of some hopeless drivers and Peter Collins came into it...
Anyone know who was responsible for selling the sponsorship?
That would be a key to it, too.

[Racer.Demon]

Ray: that we covered as well ;)

In case you missed it: Guy Edwards.

I thought the topic had by now shifted to service years at the top level, thanks to you and Marcel...

[Ray Bell]

Nah, this topic went three different ways, which, as Eric said, is 'quite normal for this forum.'
But not service years, that's on another thread, isn't it?
Anyway, we'll have to add Guy Edwards into the equation... wasn't he mentioned in relation to something else yesterday... yes, the Lauda crash in RC.

[Racer.Demon]

Quote

Originally posted by Ray Bell
But not service years, that's on another thread, isn't it?

Blame on the time of day. Over here it's 1 AM...

[Barry Lake]

Falcadore
Thanks for that info on Mal Rose. Amazing amount of information on that site.
I had forgotten all about the hard copy you gave me - maybe Mal finished up with it, or it is still filed in amongst my results etc from that meeting.

[Ray Bell]

Two posts in a row where you missed something, Barry! How much of a mess your life is in... better take some time off from the dancing to clean it up!

[Huw Jenjin]

What have Prost,Hunt and lotus got in common?
The fromation of the new lotus racing I am led to believe.
And you thought Lotus and prost had already hit the bottom!
The Hunt part is james Hunt's brother, who owns the rights to Lotus GP's name.

[Don Capps]

Quite often the beauty of this forum is when it meanders "off topic".....