27 replies to this topic

[vsubravet]

At last!! autosort.com reports: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/54814. Some degree of sanity seems to have prevailed among all the parties concerned. The Engine makers got a degree of freedom to play around with their units till March'07, the FIA got what it wanted and more importantly we won't be having the specter of a particular engine manufacturer's unit stinking all the way from now till 2009. Though the agreement falls short of the expectations of many (fans, manufacturers and some GPMA teams) it still is a good step forward. In that regard I feel that the GPMA has been able to achieve a modicum of success in making FIA amend some of its ridiculous regulations regarding the engine - submitting the JUne'06 homologated engine for racing from 2007 onwards is one that springs to my mind. Now, if they can get some racing action on the circuits, then the FIA would have done something worthwhile.

Vijay

[jokuvaan]

Merc must be popping champagne and cheering, disaster is avoided for the moment.

[Lifew12]

and I thought the GPMA had 'capitulated'.........

[vsubravet]

Capitulated is "Emburmak's" pet theory. I still maintain the GPMA did a whole lot for F1, the wau they took on BE and the FIA. It was worth forming the association, though some might disagree.

Vijay

[baddog]

Wow, a compromise some way back from a ridiculous straw man proposal the FIA threw up. Who would have thought that would happen (again).

Max policy = if you want 10 dollars demand 100.. then when they give you 20 they think they won.

[DCult]

Originally posted by baddog
Wow, a compromise some way back from a ridiculous straw man proposal the FIA threw up. Who would have thought that would happen (again).

Max policy = if you want 10 dollars demand 100.. then when they give you 20 they think they won.

Exactly. Although Max and Ferrari would really, really want the full freeze.

[Lifew12]

Originally posted by baddog
Wow, a compromise some way back from a ridiculous straw man proposal the FIA threw up. Who would have thought that would happen (again).

Max policy = if you want 10 dollars demand 100.. then when they give you 20 they think they won.

But that doesn't make sense. Why not just agree to this compromise (which has been on the table, in one form or another, since Indianapolis at the lastest!) back then? Why wait, when they knew the teams were open to the compromise some months ago? If anything the teams have gained on that proposal (another six months, in fact).

How? Why? What has gone on between that has necessitated the FIA backing down to such a degree that the agreement now includes a clause allowing development 'for pure reliability purposes only' - what a fantastic loophole.

Team: "So, are these engines frozen?"
Max;"Well, not if they break down"
team: "Oh, ours break down all the time. We need to reconfigure the head, the compression, the xyz etc etc"

Are you seriously suggesting that, with that one additional (and it is additional) allowance the FIA have not come within a hairs breadth of a complete turn around? Give over!

I could tell you why all this has happened, but I won't; you'll find out sooner or later anyway.

I think it's great - roll over FIA. (This is the FIA who have realised, also, what a mistake the single tyre supplier rule will be when the variable of differing rubber is removed next year; which is why it is they who have pushed Bridgestone to play for the 'two compound' thing to spice it up a bit. Brilliant, remove it one way, put it back another. )

I guess, then, thats what comes of capitulating; you pretty much get what you want.

[baddog]

Originally posted by Lifew12


I think it's great - roll over FIA.

Yes but you always say that. In this case, Im pretty sure the engine next year is frozen, all they have flexed on is the details of the freeze

Dont think me a supporter of the FIA in this. engine freezing goes against all I love about F1. Biut I know a stitch up when I see one.

[Lifew12]

Originally posted by baddog


Yes but you always say that. In this case, Im pretty sure the engine next year is frozen, all they have flexed on is the details of the freeze

Dont think me a supporter of the FIA in this. engine freezing goes against all I love about F1. Biut I know a stitch up when I see one.

'Details'? they've allowed development on all external ancilliaries (previously denied) the exhaust systems (previously denied) and in total reducing the 'sealed' components by almost 40%! Plus, they've introduced the 'reliability' get out. What they've done is ensured that when it fails, they can reverse it pretty much straight away. It's a fantastic result for the teams. nad for the sport.

[Dudley]

Until March.

[Lifew12]

Originally posted by Dudley
Until March.

Even after March they can develop for 'pure reliability issues'; how do you define such, I wonder?

[HP]

Originally posted by Lifew12


'Details'? they've allowed development on all external ancilliaries (previously denied) the exhaust systems (previously denied) and in total reducing the 'sealed' components by almost 40%! Plus, they've introduced the 'reliability' get out. What they've done is ensured that when it fails, they can reverse it pretty much straight away. It's a fantastic result for the teams. nad for the sport.

That sure looks better than the original proposal. But then I wonder, if that was the ultimate reason, why Honda brought some detonating engines with them a few races ago. In short, we failed in negotiations, so lets try to convince the FIA that they are not able to finish an engine in time. Or is it the opposite, Honda frustrated that they made themselves looking like an ass, with their fireworks display? And Renault must be pleased with thier E spec of the engine, that failed Alonso in the previous race... It might have been more beneficial for the GPMA to conclude these negotiations after the season ended.

And isn't it an interesting coincidence, that this proposal was finalized at the same weekend when it seems that there are no Cosworth anymore in F1 from next year on? That would take away one of the arguments of the FIA for more affordable engines for the lesser teams.

[emburmak]

Originally posted by vsubravet
Capitulated is "Emburmak's" pet theory. I still maintain the GPMA did a whole lot for F1, the wau they took on BE and the FIA. It was worth forming the association, though some might disagree.

Vijay

Not this dead horse again?


What agreement and on whose terms/platform?? Of course the GPMA capitulated. I remember saying they should concentrate on the 'hows ' and not the 'whys '. It seems that finally understanding has pecolated down the manufacturing ranks.

They have left the terrain of fighting the intro of 'homologation' and other rules etc to finding the best way to implement it within the ambit of the FIA's parameters. If at this late period you and Life12w cannot see the magnitude of the GPMA's defeat than really it is a pity. Dress it up as much as you want, it will not change reality.

[Lifew12]

Defeat? They've ended up with much, much more than they asked for at the Indianapolis proposal!

Dear dear dear, not 'in denial' are we, upset that your beloved Max has extended the deadline (again) by yet another few months? Those 'capitulating' opponents of his sure achieved a lot after giving up, didn't they?

Of course, you have to admit that the FIA have far from got what they wanted (which was a totla freeze and engines homologated ages ago). But you'll remember I told you ages ago that something had occured that rendered the entire process inconceivable anyway. It was quite simple - the engine manufacturers simply refused to comply with the homologation dates. Oh dear!

What, then, were the FIA to do about this? Simple again; agree to soften up, or have no series.

You must admit, you look very, very silly now, having insisted that the fat lady had warbled.

Max, and his band of merry men, backed down; they negotiated a surrender; they capitulated. How odd.

[vsubravet]

Originally posted by Lifew12
Defeat? They've ended up with much, much more than they asked for at the Indianapolis proposal!

Dear dear dear, not 'in denial' are we, upset that your beloved Max has extended the deadline (again) by yet another few months? Those 'capitulating' opponents of his sure achieved a lot after giving up, didn't they?

Of course, you have to admit that the FIA have far from got what they wanted (which was a totla freeze and engines homologated ages ago). But you'll remember I told you ages ago that something had occured that rendered the entire process inconceivable anyway. It was quite simple - the engine manufacturers simply refused to comply with the homologation dates. Oh dear!

What, then, were the FIA to do about this? Simple again; agree to soften up, or have no series.

You must admit, you look very, very silly now, having insisted that the fat lady had warbled.

Max, and his band of merry men, backed down; they negotiated a surrender; they capitulated. How odd.

If somebody had capitulated then they wouldn't stand a chance in hell to ask for any favours from the persons or organisation to whom they have capitulated. But here we are, six-months after capitualtion, with the FIA not being able to brow-beat the GPMA, whom it allegedly capitulated into a tame surrender, into accepting its earlier deadline. What does one make out of that. And MM is one silly ass who thinks that he is the smartest dude in F1. All these rule changes and surveys to find out the pulse of the average F1 fan, and then goes off in a tangent with even more bizzare regulations.

Vijay

[emburmak]

Originally posted by Lifew12
Defeat? They've ended up with much, much more than they asked for at the Indianapolis proposal!

Dear dear dear, not 'in denial' are we, upset that your beloved Max has extended the deadline (again) by yet another few months? Those 'capitulating' opponents of his sure achieved a lot after giving up, didn't they?

Of course, you have to admit that the FIA have far from got what they wanted (which was a totla freeze and engines homologated ages ago). But you'll remember I told you ages ago that something had occured that rendered the entire process inconceivable anyway. It was quite simple - the engine manufacturers simply refused to comply with the homologation dates. Oh dear!

What, then, were the FIA to do about this? Simple again; agree to soften up, or have no series.

You must admit, you look very, very silly now, having insisted that the fat lady had warbled.

Max, and his band of merry men, backed down; they negotiated a surrender; they capitulated. How odd.

As I said previously this is a dead issue. Capitulation is a 'negotiated surrender'. The 'surrender' itself has long been a fact. The 'terms' of that is what is in negotiation. The regs are extant as the FIA wanted them. The GPMA attempts to subvert the FIA and gain control of F1 a badly forgotten dream their bluff called. MM/FIA reign supreme with the manifesto of the their imposed rules intact. If you call that 'silly' feel free.

If on the other hand such an insult as implied is directed at me mores the pity. It has been the norm for you to descend to insults when the paucity of your stand is exposed. This has long been the case in this matter which you have long conceeded. As I see you are trying to use this avenue to get in some 'disses' in order to assuage your previous defeat I will no longer comment on this, a dead issue.

[Lifew12]

Originally posted by emburmak
[B]


As I said previously this is a dead issue. Capitulation is a 'negotiated surrender'. The 'surrender' itself has long been a fact.

Nop it hasn't!

The 'terms' of that is what is in negotiation. The regs are extant as the FIA wanted them.

No they're not. We all know the FIA wanted a total and inmoveable freeze on engine development fro 2008 onwards. What they have got is a freeze on some parts of the engine, even less I might add than the teams were willing to agree to a Indianapolis, covered by a proviso that development may take place for 'reliability issues'! How is that what they wanted, and what we know they wanted, all that time ago?

The GPMA attempts to subvert the FIA and gain control of F1 a badly forgotten dream their bluff called. MM/FIA reign supreme with the manifesto of the their imposed rules intact. If you call that 'silly' feel free.

Please explain what 'imposed' rules remain intact? To declare that is silly! The FIA had the opportunity to take their desired course of action at Indianapolis, a totla freeze, but they did not do it. Instead, they have given much, much more freedom to the teams than they even anticipated doing at Indianapolis. To claim otherwise is, of course, silly.

If on the other hand such an insult as implied is directed at me mores the pity. It has been the norm for you to descend to insults when the paucity of your stand is exposed. This has long been the case in this matter which you have long conceeded. As I see you are trying to use this avenue to get in some 'disses' in order to assuage your previous defeat I will no longer comment on this, a dead issue.

Maybe, maybe not. However, it is quite clear to anyone with eyes, a brain, and the other requisite bits that the teams have, quite emphatically, 'got one over' the FIA by seeing off the threat of a total freeze in favour of what is not actually a freeze at all. Look at the facts

The teams present an engine by Brazil

They can then totally revise that engine by March (!)

They can then revise that engine should any 'reliability issues' occur.

Surely, emburmak, as an intellingent man you are not to blind to see that that amounts not only to a lesser 'freeze', but in fact to no 'freeze' at all! What if the cylinder block is the cause of the 'reliability issues'? New engine! By this time next year not one engine in F1 will bear any relation to it's current incarnation.

If someone suggested to me that what I had said looked silly I would not take it as an insult, but would indeed check back to see if I may have, indeed, been wrong.

I guess you might want to go off and do what those 'in denial' do (deny?) as, after all this time, capitulation has obviously, by your terms, been undertaken, oddly, by both sides, and not only has Max's vision of a 'Total engine freeze' (one that he stood by as recently as Indianapolis, when he railroaded the small teams into paying more for their engines next year than they would have liked) been diluted, but it has, in truth, been brushed away under the carpet, and all thanks to the GPMA's reluctance to accept and give in.

[kNt]

It's not no freeze at all, allthough it is a bit less than it was. E.g. I doubt very much a team that's very good in power will get into much "trouble with reliability"/to change their engine.

It's just instead of pure developement there's a combination of developement and politics just like it seems there is with aero now (e.g. ban of bmw nose fins, moveable aero stuff etc.).
To me this is all a bit fishy, imagine this season and after 3 races all teams bar renault are allowed to change their engine...

[Lifew12]

Originally posted by kNt
It's not no freeze at all, allthough it is a bit less than it was. E.g. I doubt very much a team that's very good in power will get into much "trouble with reliability"/to change their engine.

Then you must be incredibly naive. This year one team got into trouble as their title rival had developed a way of making their car ride the track better, and the former team lodged a protest that had said item banned.

If team A suddenly finds their engine is less powerful or effective than team B, you can be pretty certain that team B will siddenly have an 'unreliable' engine that will be subject to amendments. If they don't take advantage of it, they would be fools.

It's just instead of pure developement there's a combination of developement and politics just like it seems there is with aero now (e.g. ban of bmw nose fins, moveable aero stuff etc.).
To me this is all a bit fishy, imagine this season and after 3 races all teams bar renault are allowed to change their engine...

Exactly. Back to square one.

[vsubravet]

And as a result of MM's " Brilliant" idea of engine freeze, one of the independent manufacturers - Cosworth - are going to be out of F1, leaving the field completely to Manufacturers. Yet, we have quite a few posters who paint them as the Evil Force, which has to be kept at bay by the knight in shining armour - MM - to save F1!!!

[kNt]

Originally posted by Lifew12


Then you must be incredibly naive. This year one team got into trouble as their title rival had developed a way of making their car ride the track better, and the former team lodged a protest that had said item banned.

If team A suddenly finds their engine is less powerful or effective than team B, you can be pretty certain that team B will siddenly have an 'unreliable' engine that will be subject to amendments. If they don't take advantage of it, they would be fools.

I don't think they wouldn't want to take advantage of it, but I'd guess they wouldn't be allowed.

Does anybody know who's in charge of deciding what's "reliability purpose developement"?

[Lifew12]

Originally posted by kNt

I don't think they wouldn't want to take advantage of it, but I'd guess they wouldn't be allowed.

Does anybody know who's in charge of deciding what's "reliability purpose developement"?

As the finer points of the agreement have yet to be finalised it remains to be seen. I guessif it's Ferrari it will be ok to change anything, anyone else will have to argue.

[jokuvaan]

Turun Sanomat says every engine maker has given long list of technical changes to be made, in other words freeze is slipping.

Most radical is Toyota, who is basicly building totally new engine.

[Ilaya]

Originally posted by jokuvaan
Turun Sanomat says ......................blah.....blah...............etc

Thanks for quoting this TS gem, but I donot think that the headline: "engine freeze is slipping" is a surprise to anyone here.
Maybe if they (or you) came up with accurate facts, statements, links then I would be impress..... errr interested.

[jokuvaan]

Thanks for quoting me, but donot think your TS hate is a surprise to anyone here.
Maybe if you would come with some actual posting, then I would be interested.

[Ilaya]

Originally posted by jokuvaan

Maybe if you would come with some actual posting, then I would be interested.

Ohh you mean like mentioning "TS says" every other post, no thanks mate, that is for the Fin-fanboys/girls.
But anyway keep up the cheerleading and please supply a link/proof/quote etc once in a while.

[Dudley]

I'm sorry at which point does this solve anything.

Rather than whoever was ahead in November being the lead for 4 years, its whoever is ahead in MArch is ahead for 4 years.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by vsubravet
And as a result of MM's " Brilliant" idea of engine freeze, one of the independent manufacturers - Cosworth - are going to be out of F1, leaving the field completely to Manufacturers. Yet, we have quite a few posters who paint them as the Evil Force, which has to be kept at bay by the knight in shining armour - MM - to save F1!!!

Why does the freeze keep cossie out?