236 replies to this topic

[chuckbrandt]

I got some great information from Bob McKee on his cars and transaxles. Here are the details of a couple of his lesser known (and Ford powered) cars. I'd love any info any of you might have on either of these cars.

The first is the McKee Mk3 which was ordered by Shelby. Shelby (and I assume Ford) had a suspicion that the first two McKee cars were back door Chevrolet projects like the Chaparrals. They weren't but Shelby ordered a car for Bob Johnson. It was specified to be able to use a 289, a 427, or an Indy 4 cam Ford engine. It was wrecked and rebuilt twice, the last time with a nose borrowed from Dan Gurney's Lotus 19. Eventually it was sold to Tom Payne and Dan Gerber as the Gerber-Payne Special which Dan drove in several races. Present whereabouts are unknown.



The second is the McKee Mk4 also known as the LMD 427. It was built in '65 along with it's sister car the hemi powerd Mk5. Larger and wider than the earlier cars. Mike Hall ran it pretty respectively in quite a few races. Bob Montana did also in the Mk5. The Mk4 is currently preserved in as raced (in '68) condition in a collection in the midwest, I hope to get to visit it soon.



I'd like to find a few more pictures and stories about these cars. I know Bob Montana is no longer with us but don't know about Mike Hall.

Thanks, Chuck

[Jerry Entin]

This is Bob McKee working on his 4wd car in the day. It had a 455 Olds Turbo motor built by Gene Crowe. Bob McKee deserves to be recognized for his great work on rear engined sports racers and his gearboxes for these cars. He was a pioneer in the field.
photo lent to site by Pete Lyons. www.petelyons.com

[Ray Bell]

Indeed... nice cars for their day...

But I'd like to know more about his transmission, actually. Any chance of that?

[chuckbrandt]

Ray,
Yes the transaxle is brilliant, you'll probably regret getting me started on this topic.



The easiest way to describe it is imagine separating the gears from the back of a quick change rear end and stuffing a Borg-Warner T-10 in the middle.

The input shaft from the clutch goes past the ring and pinion (below) and into the T-10s input shaft with a coupler. The T-10's tail shaft is removed, shortened and splined to accept one of the quick change gears. (Note the T-10s reverse gear is housed in the tailshaft so these transaxles had no traditional reverse gear) The other quick change gear was splined onto a new shaft which passes through the T-10 case, to allow this the T-10 is turned at an angle slightly short of upside down. The other end of this shaft splines into the pinion gear of the diff.

The first transaxle (shown here) for the Rodger Ward Cooper-Buick was built from a Steel ford rear end housing with plates welded to it.

Chuck

[raceannouncer2003]

Just found this website...have you seen it?

http://www.hemimckee.com/

Also, Tom Simpson of Peoria, Illinois, who has the Mak Kronn Mk 6 is the McKee registrar?

Vince Howlett, Victoria, B.C., Canada

[Alan Cox]

Is there another book in the offing, Chuck???????

[chuckbrandt]

I don't know, there is definitely enough interesting topics to do a book just about Bob. I've only worked on the transaxles and first 5 cars so far. His later racing cars including the Howmet Turbine are certainly very interesting. Then there is the tri-hawk and electric cars etc.

Oh and his shop is incredible too! They were rebuilding a Victress for a customer. I'd never hear of it, a 50s fiberglass kit roadster. A very pretty car. It will be powered by a early 50s hemi with a modern 5 speed. It is one of those shops that if I had the means I'd pay him to let me work there.

CDB

[Cynic]

I have photos of a Hemi-powered McKee raced at an SCCA National at Montgomery, Alabama in 1968. I have the driver's name somewhere in my files, but I don't recall it as Bob Montana. As I remember the owner/driver was from Arizona, but recollecctions are always dangerous at my age.

If there's interest I can get the slides converted to digital and post them in the next few days.

Cynic

[Cris]

Amazing; I have a photo of this car in period on my bathroom wall...never bothered to look into it. I will scan and post.

Cris

Originally posted by raceannouncer2003
Just found this website...have you seen it?

http://www.hemimckee.com/

Also, Tom Simpson of Peoria, Illinois, who has the Mak Kronn Mk 6 is the McKee registrar?

Vince Howlett, Victoria, B.C., Canada

[T54]

Just found this website...have you seen it?

Like quite a few restored cars, it grew a rear spoiler that was never there then... but I am sure that it is safer to drive today!

[David Birchall]

Just got back on-line after a week off due to moving 'back to the real world'.
My understanding, and it comes from closely inspecting the car, is that the first McKee sports racer was a converted Lotus 19, serial #963. I have mentioned this car on a previous thread about 19s but nobody seemed to believe me! The original 19 chassis with modifications as made by McKee is not far from where I sit now. I have to get a digital camera at some point so maybe now is the time!
The car, when acquired by friend-and at that time next door neighbour- John Maycock, was still in Mckee form with the McKee tranxaxle etc. John rebuilt the car with a new frame, new body, Buick/Rover engine and Colotti transaxle. It is now being raced as an 'origninal' car I understand.

See this thread also from last year some time:

http://forums.autosp...y=&pagenumber=2

[raceannouncer2003]

David

Do you mean the Dick Doane Chevette?

See:

http://www.wsrp.wz.c...ssis_mckee.html

Vince H.

[chuckbrandt]

David,
I'd love to see pictures of the car. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if Bob had modified a Lotus 19 for a customer but am pretty sure it isn't one of his cars. Note the Mk3 got a Lotus 19 nose from Dan Gurney after Ed Leslie wrecked it.

Coming at this from another direction I have some partial records of who he sold transaxles to and there are a few owners / cars I don't recognize yet. Do you know who the original owner was?

Chuck

[Cynic]

My memory was somewhat faulty (again).

This is a Ford-powered McKee, owned and driven by A. R. (Dick) Clicquannoi at an SCCA National at Montgomery, Alabama in 1968. I believe the Ford was a 427, so possibly this is the Mk4.

Cynic










(Thanks, Jerry)

[chuckbrandt]

Cynic,
Great pictures!! Yes that is definitely the McKee MkIV. Very Cool!

Chuck

[David Birchall]

Well, I just got home from inspecting the frame for the first time in years and talked to the present owner of the frame. His understanding is that the Lotus 19 serial #963 did a back flip at Mosport which destroyed the back of the car, the chassis was rebuilt with the back end off an existing McKee--possibly the 'Fordette"? Sorry for misleading info'----see signature line below for disclaimers.

[RA Historian]

Am enjoying the McKee thread. I believe that the Lotus 19 based car referenced above became the Hamill SR-3, raced by Ed Hamill in the mid 1960s. I recall contemporary reports referring to it occasionally as a McKee. However, the Hamill did not figure in the McKee chronology as posted on Martin Krecji's web site which is a very accurate rundown of the cars.

I saw the #3 car, the "Fordette" , at the Bridgehampton USRRC in May, 1965. Dan Gerber was driving it, and it was entered as the "Peregrine Special".

The #2 car, Hansen's, and the #5 car, Montana's, are regular visitors to the July Road America Historic weekend. This year we also saw the Kronn Mk. VI and the ex-Clusseruth Mk. VI as well as the ex-Nagel Mk. VII. Others have appeared from time to time. About the only McKee sports racers that have not shown up over time are the Doane, Gerber/Johnson/Payne, and the Lehmann LMD cars. There even was a Mk. IX Howmet turbine running one year. Whoosh!

[Jerry Entin]

Here is the McKee LMD in the Paddock of Elkhart Lake on 9/65. photo by Tom Schultz. copyright 2006 Tom Schultz.
Welcome to the forum Tom and hope you enjoy it and will post more of your fantastic pictures here for the members to enjoy.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Dave's post above...#16...would seem to point to this occurence. Post #18.

http://forums.autosp...389#post1314389

[David Birchall]

Wow! Well done Manfred
That would seem to be the car and the accident. (The clip is a 'Terry Clip' as I recall--i had one fail at Westwood and the whole front end blew off-leaving me with a surprising view of the engine).

[raceannouncer2003]

Just had a look at the 2005 Monterey Historics program...it lists:

"#63 1962 Lotus 19-Buick 3500 cc Chassis No: 963 Frank Jellinek, Jr. Hampton, NH"

I remember talking to John Delane ("the Tyrrell guy") there...he said he had swapped his '71 McLaren M8E (80-04) that weekend for Jellinek's Lotus 19.

Since then, Frank Jellinek was killed in a plane crash in January. In the Historic Grand Prix tribute page to him, it lists his cars, including a Lotus 19 and a McLaren M8...the McLaren is the one Delane had before...

http://www.historicg...icaJellinek.htm

Photo of the Lotus 19 here:

http://www.atspeedim...nk_jellinek.jpg

Vince H.

[chuckbrandt]

As I understand it, the Hamil SR-2 and SR-3 were built at least to some extent in the McKee shop to Ed's design. Ed Hamil also owned the Ward Cooper during the long process of his designing and building his cars. He and Roy Kumnick raced it and eventually Roy bought it from Ed. Roy was driving when the SR-2 when it flipped.

Chuck

[Tim Murray]

Hamill photos and info in this earlier thread.

[P 4 Staff]

Just found this in an old R&T. Thought it can be interesting.



Best: Staffan.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by raceannouncer2003
Just had a look at the 2005 Monterey Historics program...it lists:

"#63 1962 Lotus 19-Buick 3500 cc Chassis No: 963 Frank Jellinek, Jr. Hampton, NH"

IVince H.

Interesting how this thread sorta morphed in a Lotus 19 thread.....

Anyway, I am very interested to learn that Jellinek's was # 963. I saw this car at RA in July of both '04 and '05. I was interested in its history so I asked around. Jellinek was not present at the time so I spoke to several of his crew. To a man they claimed that this car was the"ex-Gurney" 19. I asked them for proof and thier reply was "when we got it, it was red". Well, that really didn't seal it for me! I pointed out that I did not think that it could be the Gurney car, because among other things, the piping was on the exterior of the Jelllinek car whereas I recall reading the the Arciero boys replumbed thier car as soon as they received it in 1960 and put the piping inside the bodywork. The attendants' reaction to that was along the lines of 'get out of here, WE say it is the Gurney car so go away!'. Got the same reaction both years!

I'm glad to see that I was right. The claim that this was the Gurney car reminds me that it seem that every 250F in existence is claimed to be Fangio's Nurburgring car.......

[David Birchall]

From memory, perhaps the rear uprights are original-but I could be wrong!

[David Birchall]

No! of course the rear uprights were whatever came off the McKee part!
I seem to recall John Maycock finding a pair of Lotus 18 uprights.

Last night I tracked John down and left a message for him-he is a very straight guy and will sort this out. He had a photo album that detailed the reconstruction of the car and as far as I knwo it went with the car. Certainly, when he contracted with me to sell the car (In 1989?) the album was part of the deal.

Strange that people should now try to claim it as "ex Gurney". The Lotus 19 chassis list is no secret. Also, the body John fitted was brand new and john had it painted black which it still appears to be-how they could claim 'it was red when we got it' defeats me!

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by David Birchall

Strange that people should now try to claim it as "ex Gurney". The Lotus 19 chassis list is no secret. Also, the body John fitted was brand new and john had it painted black which it still appears to be-how they could claim 'it was red when we got it' defeats me!

Yes, I fully agree with you about the history of this car. It has been clearly established what its pedigree is. But with all the chicanery that goes on in this game it is hardly surprising that outlandish claims about the history of a car are made by others.

I wish to state again that it was not the late Frank Jellinek who claimed that this car was the ex-Gurney car, but it was his staff that said so. Not once, but both times I brought the subject up, once in 2004, and the second time in 2005. Not only that, but they got testy when I told them that it could not be so!

I guess that they felt that it was more glamourous to claim it to be Gurney rather than state that it was the ex-Bob Columbosian car.

As I said, it seems that every 250-F offered for sale is THE Fangio car. But we all know it just ain't so!

[Paul Medici]

Sorry for missing half the car but I was apparently more interested in Augie
and his Robert Bosch Special. Mike Hall finished 3rd OAL, 2 laps behind Jim
and Hap in their Chaparral 2s.

[chuckbrandt]

Hey Paul,
Thanks for sharing the picture, it's certainly the best color shot I've seen of that livery on the car. Not many pictures of the Mk 4 it seems.


A little tidbit about the car which is also known as the LMD 427. I asked Bob what LMD stands for and he said "Lehmann's Mother's Dough$$$", pretty funny huh?

Lehmann-Peterson was the company that ordered the car. Their main business was building Lincoln based presidential limos, the pope-mobile, etc.

http://my.net-link.n.../limlpnixon.htm

Chuck

[David Birchall]

I just had a long conversaion with John Maycock. Interestingly the Lotus 19 Registra called him not long ago-somebody called Michael ? .

John is going to email me photos of the car as found in 1981 in Montreal. We reviewed the history: Following a major prang at Mt Tremblant (John thought) when the car was owned by Peter Learch but driven by Norm Namerow the car was so seriously damaged that Learch sold the car, on it's trailer, in the paddock. The car was taken to the McKee shop and rebuilt "from behind the fwd cockpit bulkhead back" by Mckee with a Ford 289 and McKee transaxle and McKee body.It had "organ pipe" exhausts. It then ran in club races and John found it derelict in a Montreal sidestreet in 1981.
John sold the car in about 1990 and with it went albums detailing the rebuild and history.
More to follow: Should this now be on the Lotus 19 thread?

[chuckbrandt]

Bob McKee's transaxle records show Peter Lerch getting transaxle #14. I don't have a date but it's right after the second comstock car and before George Wintersteen. Late '63 early '64 maybe?

Chuck

[David Birchall]

Yes, I've got it backwards--it was modified by McKee before Lerch sold it.
I should be getting much more info from John Maycock soon.

[David Birchall]

John is in the middle of moving! He did however send me the following and has promised photos "In the future".

Dave

Good to make contact again. To whet your appetite here is a copy of the documents I have sent to The Historic Lotus Register. I do not think you should make this public domain just yet.



Coltman’s comments are interesting in that there were only 12 cars that came out of the factory with engines. My guess is that demand came for more cars, and so they filled the demand to get more revenue by shipping cars without engines as that was the bottleneck to production.



The 963 information is rock solid, I have no doubt whatsoever that it is correct. There is no unbroken ownership period, and all the literature fits the timeline.



For the list of the chassis numbers, the ones with a cross and a circle, I have either seen, or have reliable information that the owner/chassis number details are correct. Orosco’s name figures prominently on the list so he would be a good source of information.



I know what happened to the Harrison Special, but was never able to find it. It may still exist, but it would be so significantly modified, that I doubt anyone would recognise it as a 19.



I saw Ed Richter’s original chassis, it was full of cracks and un-raceable. The problem with these cars is that they were designed and built to minimum weight, with components that were not designed to last 3 years, let alone 40. It would be unsafe to drive an original 19 these days, even if one did exist, which I doubt it does. Ed’s was the closest you could come to a totally original car, but even he replaced the frame.



One interesting anecdote is that I was able to buy back all the Lotus 19 parts that were removed from my car by Bob McKee. Hence I acquired all the original suspension components plus some spares. It is some of these that I still have. Somewhere I have a full text that describes the history in detail.



I am afraid I have other priorities right now, such as selling the house. I am afraid photos are going to have to wait for a while, but let’s stay in touch.



Cheers

John



PS I have copies of photos that Bob McKee took of the car when it left his shop

[chuckbrandt]

I was talking to Bob McKee yesterday on another topic and asked about this car. It was significantly wrecked after he worked on it for Peter Lerch, at St. Jovite he thought.

Sorry if my confusion added to anyone else's.

Chuck

[karlcars]

Wonderful to see a thread on Bob McKee's cars. I'm happy to call Bob a good friend and visited his shop on several occasions, once when he was restoring a Maserati I used to own.

You'll find several shots of various McKee cars in my book for Iconografix, "Can-Am Racing Cars".

I hope someone can add info on the car that Bob built with Armco (?) sponsorship, a monocoque with four-wheel drive and turbocharged Olds engine!

[chuckbrandt]

I'm putting together the history of the McKee MK3 and could use some help filling in the gaps. I understand the car may still exist somewhere but I don' t know where it is.

Anyway, here is what I have so far.

The car was ordered sometime in '64 for Bob Johnson. Shelby suspected the first McKee cars to be GM programs like the Chaparrals were and wanted to find out what Chevrolet knew about suspensions and mid-engined cars. They weren't but anyway.. It was ordered such that it could fit the 289 ford, the 427 ford, and the ford indy 4 cam engines.

Some Ford Execs were going to be at the Road America 500 on 9/13/64 and they worked night and day to get it ready. The night before it was to be delivered Johnson's mechanic Tom Greatorex wrecked it test driving it on the street in front of McKee's shop.

It was rebuilt and delivered for the Pacific Grand Prix at Laguna Seca 10/18/64. Bob Johnson missed his plane or was otherwise detained so it was driven by Ed Leslie in practice. Ed ran into the back of another car and severly damaged the front end sheetmetal. It was taken to Shelby's shop and the nose from Dan Gurney's Lotus 19 was put on the car and supposedly that's the nose it retained for the rest of it's life.

For the '65 season the car was owned by the team of Dan Gerber and Tom Payne and called the Gerber-Payne special or Peregrin (A play on the ford falcon perhaps?).

Dan Gerber finished 7th in the car at Pensacola USRRC 4/11/65 and 9th at Bridgehampton 5/23/65

That was basically all I had until yesterday I stumbled on a picture of it on Nick England's site about VIR. The car was at the April 1966 SCCA Nationals driven by Allan Freidland.

Any idea what happened to it after that or since?

Thanks, Chuck

At Laguna Seca 10/18/64 (I assume)

Gerber-Payne Special (Lotus Nose) Photo by Walter Haessner

VIR April of '66 Allan Freidland Photo by Stuart Craig

[Cris]

Cris

[chuckbrandt]

Small update, I talked to the current owner of the McKee Mk4 who lives near St. Louis. I plan to go visit him and the car in a few weeks.

He says he bought it from Dick Clicquannoi and that it is in much the same condition as when it was last raced (as in the pictures of the car in read as posted by Cynic).

As a big block FE ford enthusiast I can't wait to see it. Of all the McKee cars I think the Mk4 is my favorite.

Chuck

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by karlcars


I hope someone can add info on the car that Bob built with Armco (?) sponsorship, a monocoque with four-wheel drive and turbocharged Olds engine!

Not much Armco sponsorship, I suspect, as the car showed up for just one Can Am, Road America in 1969, ran a few laps in practice driven by Joe Leonard, did not start, and I do not believe it ever ran again. I heard that the project just flat ran out of money.

[jm70]

At Laguna Seca 10/18/64 (I assume)

With out a doubt Turn 6 at Riverside.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by chuckbrandt
Small update, I talked to the current owner of the McKee Mk4 who lives near St. Louis. I plan to go visit him and the car in a few weeks.

He says he bought it from Dick Clicquannoi and that it is in much the same condition as when it was last raced (as in the pictures of the car in read as posted by Cynic).

As a big block FE ford enthusiast I can't wait to see it. Of all the McKee cars I think the Mk4 is my favorite.

Chuck

Refer to Jerry Entin's post of 4 October 2006 for my photo of this car in the paddock at Road America in Sept. 1965.

[chuckbrandt]

Hey Tom,
Great Picture! This is the first time I've noticed the either lighter blue or silver stripe in the paint scheme.

Thank you so much for posting it.

Chuck Brandt

[Cynic]

This is Ralph Salyer at the ARRC at Daytona in 1967 -- it's dark because the C Modified race was one of the last of the day. The McKee seems to have grown quite a spoiler since the R&T article above.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Back in the days when I coveted each copy of R&T, they ran an annual photo competition for readers across a variety of categories such as best concours pix, best candid driver pix, best action pix and so on. The winner one year in the colour action category was a still of Ralph Salyer in a sports racer that was disentigrating in a shunt at Elkhart Lake, iirc. He was starting to get dangerously exposed as the car shed parts and bodywork all round him. Was it in this McKee? I distinctly recall the shot...shocking in it's ferocity but he got out with just good shaking I believe.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin
Back in the days when I coveted each copy of R&T, they ran an annual photo competition for readers across a variety of categories such as best concours pix, best candid driver pix, best action pix and so on. The winner one year in the colour action category was a still of Ralph Salyer in a sports racer that was disentigrating in a shunt at Elkhart Lake, iirc. He was starting to get dangerously exposed as the car shed parts and bodywork all round him. Was it in this McKee? I distinctly recall the shot...shocking in it's ferocity but he got out with just good shaking I believe.

I recall it, it was a great shot, but it was not Ralph Salyer or a McKee. I believe it was Stan Burnett in one of his specials. While Ralph did have an accident in the 1967 June Sprints, it was just a slide into the ditch. He was never upside down at the track nor in any type of a car destroying shunt at the track.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

RA Historian:

So much for my clarity of memory!

TY.

[Jerry Entin]

Budd Clusserath in 1966 Road America June Sprints, with Olds-powered McKee Mk6. Clusserath's real first name was Clemeth and his family ran a plumbing business in Hammond, Indiana. My aunt owned the local market and liquor store there called Weiss's Market.



Three generations of McKee designs in the 1966 June Sprints at Elkhart Lake: Clussarath in the #64 Olds-powered Mk6, Lew Draper in one of the original McKees, the #26 Chevy-powered Chevette and Dick Clicquennoi in the #52 Ford-powered Mk4 McKee.
pictures lent site Willem Oosthoek-all research Willem Oosthoek

[Jerry Entin]

Ralph Salyer in his McKee Mk6 a.k.a. Cro-Sal Special, at Elkhart Lake Road America, chief mechanic Gene Crowe the Cro part, is in uniform on the right.


Artist sketch of Ralph Salyer's 1969 Armco-sponsored McKee/Olds that Karl Ludvigsen referred to earlier.
photos lent site by Willem Oosthoek.

[Jerry Entin]

4WD car. With 455 cubic inch Olds Turbo motor by the Great Gene Crowe. Joe Leonard on the Armco beside the car. Bob McKee leaning in working on car. This is the car in the sketch. Ralph Salyer owned car.
picture lent to site by Tom Schultz. copyright 2006 Tom Schultz.