194 replies to this topic

[MortenF1]

The build-up to qualifying has been done in wet and damp wheather yesterday, but today it has been dry throughout. The temperature in qualifying was around 24-25'c air - 30'c track.
...But then, halfway into the last session, a few drops of rain feel down, forcing the teams to forward their first real full-tilt flyers. It proved insignificant though, as the fastest times were set right at the end, as per usual.

The two main characters went about third free with different programs - Renault and Alonso just used one set of tires to try and improve his cars set-up, whereas Ferrari, Massa and Schumacher placed a bigger emphasis on qualifying, albeit without exactly wasting any sets of tires.


....Which payed off, as Ferrari, Bridgestone and Felipe Massa just danced around the Suzuka track in dominant fashion, to secure pole position! Congratulations!
Schumacher makes it an all Ferrari front-row.

-Toyota talked up their chances ahead of this weekend, and backs that up with Ralf Schumacher and Trulli going fast enough for 3rd and 4th. Even if they together with Bridgestone have moved up, one suspects they might be a little lighter than the others.

-Renault have not been able to threaten their arch-rivals here, and it will be tough for them tomorrow, trying to keep up with Ferrari, and as if that wasn't enough, they have Toyota to contend with as well.
Alonso 5th and Fisichella 6th.

-Honda are not only on home-soil, but on their own track, and they are going well here, especially as it is Bridgestone-territory. Button put his car 7th on the grid, with Barrichello 8th.

-BMW-Sauber goes well; Heidfeld especially, qualifying 9th , and Kubica 12th.

-Williams Cosworth has been quite fast this weekend, and Rosberg in particular, as he has had Webber under control on this track.
A fine 10th for Rosberg, 13th for Webber

-McLaren Mercedes did not look too competitive in the free practice sessions, and Räikkönen ruled out running at the front. And indeed; dissapointments in qualifying as Räikkönen and dela Rosa lines up 11th and 13th.

-Toro Rosso have been quicker than their "mother-team" this weekend, and Liuzzi survived the cut in the first session and qualified 15th in the end. Speed a very dissapointing 19th, and very far off Liuzzi's impressive speed today.

-Spyker MF1 and Albers pulled off another good qualifying; through to the second session for them.
Monteiro will line up 21st.

-Red Bull Racing dissapoints, but with no developing of the car, they were always going to struggle in the last part of the season.
Only 17th and 18th on the grid for Coulthard and Doornbos.

-Super Aguri are spurred on by racing in front of their home-crowd, and the superb tires from Bridgestone has also added to their competitiveness; Sato tried hard and managed to beat Monteiro with what looked like a very good run. Yamamoto could only complete half an out-lap as his car developed a problem.

That was it, so please continue - share your views and verdicts!

[Cheap Wine Alesi]

Toyota very fast - but as i said before, probably quite light.
Hondas are probably quite heavy.
Ferraris too.

good job by Massa to beat ms

[jokuvaan]

Nico fueled quite a lot? Interesting to compare Q3 and Q2 times.

[MortenF1]

A very good effort from Massa. He started the season really well speed-wise early on, then fell back a little before he's now beginning to establish himself as just as fast as Schumacher, or atleast very, very close.

[Thanatos]

Any reason why Schumacher did an extra lap at the end of qualifying? (last one back) will he get a fuel credit for it?

Woo hoo Ferrari!

[Umpire]

Bridgestone day.

Good job on Massa, I'd be surprised if he isn't lighter than MS.

Massa vs. Alonso was a bit lame in the beginning of Q3, but within the rules nonetheless.

Nice to see Toyota up front, it seems they were really serious when they said they'd hope for a podium.

[clampett]

Bridgestone

I wonder how much Alonso is lighter than Fisi. Fisi was constantly faster through the w/e except the last lap.

[le chat noir]

I hope Ferrari have learnt to swap their drivers before coming to the pitstop window...

[MortenF1]

Originally posted by jokuvaan
Nico fueled quite a lot? Interesting to compare Q3 and Q2 times.

Not sure he is too heavy, atleast not as heavy as they have often been before when they've got into Q3. Rosberg was only three tenths from Heidfeld, and I suspect that Honda, Williams and BMW are stopping around the same time tomorrow.

Now, remember Ross Brawn - please play it fair and don't interfere with team-orders tomorrow!

[kar]

Originally posted by le chat noir
I hope Ferrari have learnt to swap their drivers before coming to the pitstop window...

Yes, me too.

[kar]

Originally posted by Cheap Wine Alesi
Toyota very fast - but as i said before, probably quite light.
Hondas are probably quite heavy.
Ferraris too.

good job by Massa to beat ms

Massa is most certainly lighter than Michael.

[duncanjn]

Toyota are just keeping the sponsors happy for qualifying. I expect them to pit after lap 3 ;)

[cavallinö]

Carrying on with my discussion with nigel:

nigel red 5
cavalino, yes i agree with you.. However, does it say anywhere officially that Q3 is a fuel burn? Nope.. it;s a qualifying period. Massa will be upstairs later, i guarantee it. What will happen then, we shall see.

But wasn't Massa on his out lap and hot lap at the same time as Alonso? Couldn't he say he was doing his own fast lap, the best he could do at that time, he is only obliged to let Alonso through if he is on his out lap and Alonso on his hot lap, right?

[sephiroth]

Strange that no one is commenting on Renault jumping the line (dangerously even with respect to each other) at the start of Q:period 3.

[RuB]

Originally posted by le chat noir
I hope Ferrari have learnt to swap their drivers before coming to the pitstop window...

No way!! Ross Brawn, Mr fair play, will not permit that

I expect controversy with Massa blocking FA during Q3, lets see what happens in a couple of hours. It was too obvious that it was on purpose.

I will pray for rain

[SlateGray]

Originally posted by kar


Massa is most certainly lighter than Michael.

Or just quicker, time will tell

[Johny Bravo]

Originally posted by race addicted


Now, remember Ross Brawn - please play it fair and don't interfere with team-orders tomorrow!

Exactly. Hopefully Fisico will not have to let Alonso past again.

[noikeee]

Monteiro wasn't able to make a last minute run on Q1, due to a suspension problem (says the portuguese TV). That's why Sato beat him, altho Albers had been very impressive the whole weekend and I doubt Tiago would've been able to make it to Q2 like the dutchman did.

Surprised to see Massa grabbing the pole in the end, he seemed way off from MS's pace earlier. Wouldn't it be nice if Massa ended up dominating the race, and Ferrari would have to use team orders.

Renault struggling with the Michelins, the McLarens performing pathetic with them. : Can't say I'm happy with these results..

[speedmaster]

sweet dreams tonight...Massa

[cavallinö]

Originally posted by RuB


No way!! Ross Brawn, Mr fair play, will not permit that

I expect controversy with Massa blocking FA during Q3, lets see what happens in a couple of hours. It was too obvious that it was on purpose.

I will pray for rain

Oh come on, you already know what will happen. Do tell us

[Stephan]

Originally posted by cavallinö
Carrying on with my discussion with nigel:



But wasn't Massa on his out lap and hot lap at the same time as Alonso? Couldn't he say he was doing his own fast lap, the best he could do at that time, he is only obliged to let Alonso through if he is on his out lap and Alonso on his hot lap, right?

But then again, in Monza, Alonso was much further away, and not doing anything on purpose. Don't want to drag the whole debate over Monza qualifying here, but one does have a case now when claimed that Massa blocked Alonso here on purpose.

[role]

Originally posted by clampett
Bridgestone

I wonder how much Alonso is lighter than Fisi. Fisi was constantly faster through the w/e except the last lap.

Alonso was faster on Q1 by 0.7 secs, Fisi faster on Q2 by 0.051 on Q2.

On FP3 reports say Fisi went with new tyres for a quick lap.

I guess in Fisi land they show a different GP weekend...

[cavallinö]

Originally posted by Stephan


But then again, in Monza, Alonso was much further away, and not doing anything on purpose. Don't want to drag the whole debate over Monza qualifying here, but one does have a case now when claimed that Massa blocked Alonso here on purpose.

But Alonso was on his out lap, as far as I can see here, Massa was on the same lap as Alonso.

[Umpire]

I think that what happened with Massa and Alonso was no accident - but it's going to be a tough one to prove it. Heck, the 2 cars running behind Massa&Alonso were in a very similar configuration (I recall that picture when they were coming down to 130R on a lap). It will probably be dismissed as 'formation driving'.

[sputnik]

Thank god that crummy KR is getting replaced by JV. He'll be worth his weight in gold on his development skills alone.

[clampett]

Originally posted by role


Alonso was faster on Q1 by 0.7 secs, Fisi faster on Q2 by 0.051 on Q2.

On FP3 reports say Fisi went with new tyres for a quick lap.

I guess in Fisi land they show a different GP weekend...

In Fisi land they showed a better friday lap (not counting much tough), better saturday practice lap, worse Q1 lap (not counting much either), better Q2 lap, and better first Q3 lap. The same scenario as in Hockenheim.

[Stephan]

Originally posted by role


Alonso was faster on Q1 by 0.7 secs, Fisi faster on Q2 by 0.051 on Q2.

On FP3 reports say Fisi went with new tyres for a quick lap.

I guess in Fisi land they show a different GP weekend...

Then it is highly likely that Fisi did not use new tires in Q1.
Anyway, both are very close together, so probably this was really the best Renault could do this session.

I am not too sure Toyota's are much lighter, I really think they do have the pace here. I fear Renault's will pit first tomorrow.

[role]

Originally posted by cavallinö
Carrying on with my discussion with nigel:



But wasn't Massa on his out lap and hot lap at the same time as Alonso? Couldn't he say he was doing his own fast lap, the best he could do at that time, he is only obliged to let Alonso through if he is on his out lap and Alonso on his hot lap, right?

I guess that's why they look at the telemetry, to see if he was pushing or .... blocking?

[Stephan]

Originally posted by cavallinö


But Alonso was on his out lap, as far as I can see here, Massa was on the same lap as Alonso.

I agree it is not worthy of a penalty, of course. But if Alonso got punished in Monza for doing what he did there, then the Renault team have valid grounds to make an appeal at least.

[Celloman]

Bridgestone:
Ferrari:
Toyota:
NR:
FA: :
Kubica
McLaren:

[Mox]

Originally posted by cavallinö
Carrying on with my discussion with nigel:

But wasn't Massa on his out lap and hot lap at the same time as Alonso? Couldn't he say he was doing his own fast lap, the best he could do at that time, he is only obliged to let Alonso through if he is on his out lap and Alonso on his hot lap, right?

Massa was on his out-lap as well, and looking at the end-results, I'm fairly sure he could claim, that letting Alonso by would leave himself in an impeded situation, since clearly he was able to go faster than Alonso when his tyres got up to temperature.

Renault CHOSE to go out behind Ferrari. They weren't quick enough out of the pit-box to get out in front, despite having the favoured box.

You can't put that on Massa, expecting him to sacrifice his own strategy, which - coincidentally - led to pole position.

[role]

Originally posted by Stephan


Then it is highly likely that Fisi did not use new tires in Q1.
Anyway, both are very close together, so probably this was really the best Renault could do this session.

I am not too sure Toyota's are much lighter, I really think they do have the pace here. I fear Renault's will pit first tomorrow.

Accept that Fisi has bee doing well this week-end in which it seems both Renos are struggling on set-up

[hermitkid]

Originally posted by cavallinö
Carrying on with my discussion with nigel:



But wasn't Massa on his out lap and hot lap at the same time as Alonso? Couldn't he say he was doing his own fast lap, the best he could do at that time, he is only obliged to let Alonso through if he is on his out lap and Alonso on his hot lap, right?

Of course he was, so what we're going to see happen is exactly nothing.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by sephiroth
Strange that no one is commenting on Renault jumping the line (dangerously even with respect to each other) at the start of Q:period 3.

I took note of that. Not very classy at all. Arrogant, even.

Rosberg has been really on it this weekend. This is not an easy track for rookies.

[kamix]

Well Nico sure is on top of Mark this weekend Interesting to see what Webber has to say about it ...

[Stephan]

Originally posted by Mox


You can't put that on Massa, expecting him to sacrifice his own strategy, which - coincidentally - led to pole position.

So Alonso should not have sacrificied his qualifying in Monza then too.

[Mox]

Originally posted by sputnik
Thank god that crummy KR is getting replaced by JV. He'll be worth his weight in gold on his development skills alone.

[noikeee]

Originally posted by sputnik
Thank god that crummy KR is getting replaced by JV. He'll be worth his weight in gold on his development skills alone.

Two obversations:

- Michelin seems horrible this weekend
- McLaren had a bad season, therefore it'd make sense to focus development on next years car, instead of giving it all for the last 2 races of a season where there's nothing to win anymore

But hey, what do I know. It's probably all Kimi's fault. What an incompetent guy, for not being able to build a top F1 car and lift a large company all on his own.

This JV to McLaren rumour..

[kamix]

Since they were both on outlap then hotlaps there is no reason in hell why Massa should have let Alonso through.

[role]

Originally posted by Mox


Massa was on his out-lap as well, and looking at the end-results, I'm fairly sure he could claim, that letting Alonso by would leave himself in an impeded situation, since clearly he was able to go faster than Alonso when his tyres got up to temperature.

Renault CHOSE to go out behind Ferrari. They weren't quick enough out of the pit-box to get out in front, despite having the favoured box.

You can't put that on Massa, expecting him to sacrifice his own strategy, which - coincidentally - led to pole position.

Could you have expected Alonso to sacrifise his strategy at Imola, let a driver by that he can barely see in his little mirrors and risk not being able to arrive on time to make the qual....

Oh it is true, once Reno was ****ed up on Monza they changed the rules...

[Mox]

Originally posted by Stephan


So Alonso should not have sacrificied his qualifying in Monza then too.

Show me where I say that the penalty on Alonso at Monza was fair?

But that has nothing to do with this situation!

[dde]

Originally posted by race addicted
A very good effort from Massa. He started the season really well speed-wise early on, then fell back a little before he's now beginning to establish himself as just as fast as Schumacher, or atleast very, very close.

Schumacher is certainly heavier. 4 laps I would say.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by paranoik0
g with the Michelins, the McLarens performing pathetic with them. : Can't say I'm happy with these results..

KR was some 4 tenths slower than Alonso in Q2, I don't think that's pathetic/stuggling at all considering the cars. Pedro was 8 tenths slower than the Renaults, that's closer to what it should be between the two teams taking cars into account (didn't Briatore or Symonds say Renault have the fastest car?). Of course it was still disappointing that McLaren were out of Q3, but currently they're just not that competitive.

[Johny Bravo]

Originally posted by Stephan


I agree it is not worthy of a penalty, of course. But if Alonso got punished in Monza for doing what he did there, then the Renault team have valid grounds to make an appeal at least.

Slight difference is that at Monza Felipe WAS on his hot lap, while Alonso 'gave his helping tow' on his OUTlap.
Here both drivers were on their starting laps of their 15min Q-session and they were on the SAME lap.

[hermitkid]

Originally posted by Stephan


So Alonso should not have sacrificied his qualifying in Monza then too.

The difference here is Alonso was on his outlap and Massa on his hotlap.

[role]

Originally posted by kamix
Since they were both on outlap then hotlaps there is no reason in hell why Massa should have let Alonso through.

I am sorry, it was a qual session adn it was impeding (going 2 secs slower than his teammate) and peventing another driver to set a faster lap in a rain bound session. What is so hard to understand? IT was impeding or not?

[nigel red5]

Originally posted by cavallinö
Carrying on with my discussion with nigel:



But wasn't Massa on his out lap and hot lap at the same time as Alonso? Couldn't he say he was doing his own fast lap, the best he could do at that time, he is only obliged to let Alonso through if he is on his out lap and Alonso on his hot lap, right?

I suppose..

Pat Symonds has admitted they asked the question to the officials at the time of the incident. Like i said it's all gamesmanship and each team is taking....or lets use another word....positioning themselves in a place where they can screw over their opponent. Renault are in the shit as we know from the laptimes, and are trying every trick to keep themselves in it.

It did seem like an age that Fernando was up tight behind Massa though. The outlap from the pitlane...that's fine and fair enough. But then it was either 1 or 2 further timed laps. At the time of writing though i like all of us have only looke at it once and that was the live view.

When it went on for a second lap, and into a third....and then we heard the radio, i shot up about three feet in the air visualising all sorts of shenanigans later. It seems to have been quelled somewhat though by the relevant parties since then.

[noikeee]

Originally posted by HSJ


KR was some 4 tenths slower than Alonso in Q2, I don't think that's pathetic/stuggling at all considering the cars.

Well, I was talking about the cars.

[Stephan]

Originally posted by Johny Bravo


Slight difference is that at Monza Felipe WAS on his hot lap, while Alonso 'gave his helping tow' on his OUTlap.
Here both drivers were on their starting laps of their 15min Q-session and they were on the SAME lap.

I agree, the other difference is that Alonso did not do anything on purpose in Monza, whereas Massa did here in Suzuka.

(still no penalty of course)

[valachus]

Originally posted by Stephan


So Alonso should not have sacrificied his qualifying in Monza then too.

The comparison with Monza is irelevant, in Monza we had a slower and damaged car on its outlap ahead of a faster, perfectly good car on its hotlap. In Suzuka the faster car was ahead. Sorry.