198 replies to this topic

[Cirrus]

I've just set up a website dedicated to the early years of FF2000 http://www.historicff2000.co.uk . The main idea is to get an active race series for the early cars (1975-1980) on the go. It's an era which seems to srike a chord with many UK-based TNFers. Alan Cox has kindly given me permission to use his pictures, but there are still a number of gaps to be filled. Does anyone have pictures, and/or technical details of the following cars...

Agent (probably the first ground effects FF2000)
ASD
Chel
Condor
Davron
Lenham Hurst (did they ever produce a car?)
Mallock
Merlyn
MRE
Myrtle Special (a championship winner in the North West)
Nomad
Palliser (I've only got a picture in "The Old Nail* form
Penfold
Ray
Sark (I've got a Starfire picture, but a Sark in action would be nice)
Palliser
Titan

Any information gratefull received - and any copyright respected.

[Andrew Kitson]

I can put you in touch with Don McLeod of Sark who may have something?

[Cirrus]

Thanks Andrew - I've sent you an email.

[Coogar]

I seem to remember a FF2000 Sark (uprated with twin 45s, cam etc) in Irish hill climbs a year or so back. Belonged to a chap called Peter Dwyer. It's probably still out and about in the Emerald Isle.

[Mallory Dan]

Alan, the Myrtle Special was a modified Crossle 33F, run very well by John Walker IIRC. Visually v similar to the Crossle. I don't recall a Lenham Hurst at all. The Sarks went quite well in 1976 Richard Piper and Lorina Boughton later I think.

[Cirrus]

Thanks for sticking your head over the parapet, Dan! I knew the Myrtle Special was based on a Crossle, but I had no idea whether its appearance was markedly changed. I think John Walker won a championship in the North West in the late Seventies in it.

The puzzling thing for me is how all these cars disappear without trace. There were loads of Dulons and Hawkes etc, but hardly any of them appear nowadays. I bet they're still around somewhere, just look at the obscure Formula Juniors that have come out of the woodwork....

For no logical reason, I'm intrigued by the Agent cars - one of the first attempts at ground effect in FF2000. Can anyone shed any further light on them?

[Alan Cox]

A promised, Cirrus, some FF200 photos from 1980/81

Mike "Fulmar" Taylor leads from Ray Edge

Mike "Jersey" Taylor leads from the aforementioned John Walker - Walker was pretty quick on a shoestring budget. Do you remeber there was a third FF2000 Mike Taylor - "Abacus"?

Jellied eel-purveyor Frank Bradley

I think it's Thornton Mustard???

The Agent, with designer David Rendall and David Winstanley

[Henk A. Hazelaar]

Cirrus,

Some photo's of FF 2000.

















Regards,

Henk A. Hazelaar

[Cirrus]

Thanks very much for the pictures, guys. Henk - what's the fourth car down in your pictures? Is it a 1982 Delta?

Seeing Frank Bradley's Reynard SF80 brought back a few memories. I bought Tim Davies' SF80 from Autowindscreens and ran it for current historic racer, Anthony Hancock in a few races. Not one of Reynard's finer efforts!

I'll be putting some of those pictures up on the site tomorrow - thanks again!

[Henk A. Hazelaar]

Cirrus,

The fourth car was a Delta T83, driver Cor Euser.
Please let me known if you like better quality pictures, I can send it to your private mail.

Regards,

Henk A. Hazelaar

[Stephen W]

A lot of Formula Ford 2000 cars ended up in Speed Events. Nearly ALL of the Pilbeam MP52s have been used. Loads of Deltas, Saracens, Reynards and Crossles have all made it into speed eventing.

Most of the aforementioned were fitted with IMP engines and run in the 1100 Racing Car class. When the motorbike engined cars started to go quicker they nearly all disappeared I assume to be parked in the back of garages and barns!

Isn't there a racing series for old Pinto engined FF2000s?

[Stephen W]

A couple of pictures for you:


Above: Adrian Hopkins in the Sark which ran in the 1600cc Racing Car class.


Above: Jerry Sturman in the Harrison which ran in the 1100cc Racing Car class.

[Cirrus]

Isn't there a racing series for old Pinto engined FF2000s?

There may be another one soon! The URS series caters for the later cars (up to '83, but excluding the later Reynards), and has a class for the earlier cars. The Classic F3 association also has a class for cars up to the end of 1980, but the FF2000s are always at risk if they can muster a full grid of F3s.

Our plan is to arrange a few fun races where an early FF2000 can actually score an outright win...

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Cirrus


There may be another one soon! The URS series caters for the later cars (up to '83, but excluding the later Reynards), and has a class for the earlier cars. The Classic F3 association also has a class for cars up to the end of 1980, but the FF2000s are always at risk if they can muster a full grid of F3s.

Our plan is to arrange a few fun races where an early FF2000 can actually score an outright win...

As I mentioned in an earlier post there are a lot of ex-FF2000 cars sat in garages with uncompetetive 1100 and 1600 engines installed. I know of one Pilbeam MP52 which has just been sold and the new owner is ripping out the 1600 BDA to install a 2 litre Pinto. This car will also need new sidepods and a rear wing as it is fitted with 'hillclimb' versions.

I feel sure that should a 'race series', or even a class, for the older FF2000s be established then more cars would find their way onto the market. They would probably all be rolling chassis as the majority have 'lost' their two litre Pintos!

[Andrew Kitson]

Not sure if these are much use, a few of mine from the period anyway.

On the grid at Mallory in '78. No 24 white car is I think Tony Halliwell with Syd Fox's 'Old Nail' Palliser behind.



Later in 1980 at Silverstone. Dave Greenwood's car is the green/yellow one.


Richard Trott's all conquering 1980 Royale RP27. The mechanic is Rob Bowden - bless him - a lovely guy, killed when he worked for Eddie Jordan in a road accident when the F3 race transporter went down an Austrian ravine.


Richard leading 'Fulmar' Taylor into Gerards in 1980.


This March was at a Silverstone meeting in 1980, might be FSV though?

[Andrew Kitson]

Yes, it is an F Supervee March of Olly Hollamby. On closer inspection can see 'Olly' on his helmet and a 'Volkspares' sticker on the car.

[Cirrus]

Thanks, Andrew. Actually, I'm pretty sure Dave Greenwood's car is a Supervee as well.

[Andrew Kitson]

Alan, yes of course you are correct, sorry. Just looked in the programme.
It was March 16th '80. Greenwood's car no.4 is a FSV Reynard SV80 Brabham, winner of the race.
The FF2000 no.51 is Keith Money's Reynard SF79 Rowland and no.1 is indeed Olly Hollamby's FSV March 80SV Brabham.

[Mallory Dan]

Great stuff as ever chaps, Andrew whats the date of that '78 Mallory meeting. I always used to spectate about where you must have taken the pics from, small world ain't it.

On climbing Pilbeams Steve, I'm sure the FF2000s were called 'SP1's NOT MP52s. The latter was, I'm fairly sure, an update of the MP51 of 1981. Both cars, or maybe only the 1, were F3s, used v briefly in 81, then more often by Josh Wright in 1982. The SP1s were FF2000s, entered by Swallow Racing in about 1982 IIRC.

Anyone agree/disagree, Steve and I always argue over this - fluff or what !!

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Great stuff as ever chaps, Andrew whats the date of that '78 Mallory meeting. I always used to spectate about where you must have taken the pics from, small world ain't it.

On climbing Pilbeams Steve, I'm sure the FF2000s were called 'SP1's NOT MP52s. The latter was, I'm fairly sure, an update of the MP51 of 1981. Both cars, or maybe only the 1, were F3s, used v briefly in 81, then more often by Josh Wright in 1982. The SP1s were FF2000s, entered by Swallow Racing in about 1982 IIRC.

Anyone agree/disagree, Steve and I always argue over this - fluff or what !!

The cars were designed by Mike Pilbeam and were given the MP52 nomenclature.

The Swallow SP1 was the name under which they were entered by Swallow Racing who were based at Donington.

All the above cars that have competed in Hillclimbs and Sprints have ALWAYS been entered as Pilbeam MP52.

The following is an extract from the Pilbeam notes of Marcus Pye:

MP52 1982 Spaceframe FF2000 racer, initially for Swallow Racing, dubbed the SP1/2. Eight were built, the last by John Bright in 1988.

Dan, do you believe me now?

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Great stuff as ever chaps, Andrew whats the date of that '78 Mallory meeting. I always used to spectate about where you must have taken the pics from, small world ain't it.

Dan, it was the Aurora AFX 'Radio 1' meeting, was it July with 'orrible weather?
The Aurora grid pic in the other thread taken same day.

[Stephen W]

The following are the "odd ball" FF2000s that I saw in period:

Agent DR1 - 27/06/81 - Oulton Park - David Winstanley
Alpine A364 - 09/03/75 - Mallory Park - Phil Clacher
Condor 77/1 - 06/08/77 - Oulton Park - Syd Fox
CTG SF77 - 24/09/77 - Oulton Park - Neil Betteridge
Jamun TM9 - 24/06/78 - Oulton Park - Ken Pickering
March 703 - 16/03/75 - Brands Hatch - Brian Davis
MRE 75SF - 09/03/75 - Mallory Park - Chris Pryer
Myrtle Spl - 10/05/80 - Oulton Park - John Walker
Nomad Mk 3 - 06/08/77 - Oulton Park - Phil Lloyd
Nomad Mk 4 - 24/06/78 - Oulton Park - Phil Lloyd
Penfold SF79 - 29/09/79 - Oulton Park - Peter Cooke
PMD 78 - 22/07/78 - Oulton Park - Peter Cooke
PP FF2000 - 16/08/81 - Donington Park - Alex Postan
Titan Mk 10 - 09/07/77 - Oulton Park - Chris Fearon
TON 74 - 24/07/78 - Oulton Park - Syd Fox

[Cirrus]

Stephen W - you've listed many of the cars for which I am looking for pictures. You weren't, by any chance, a keen amateur photographer at the time, were you?

[ian senior]

Two questions that unfortunately won't help Alan:

1 - what was a Penfold?

2 - Which March 703 are we talking about - any "previous"?

And was the MRE the same as their earlier F3 Car?

[Cirrus]

The Penfold(s) is/were made by Mick Penfold Race Preparations. Mick Penfold used to prepare a number of club racing cars in the seventies, but that's all I know. The MRE, I think, shared some components with the F3. MRE was run by a guy called Jim Gleave. The MRE project was bought by Tim Schenken and Howden Ganley, and became the first Tiga, with little outward change in it's appearance.

[Mallory Dan]

Originally posted by ian senior
Two questions that unfortunately won't help Alan:

1 - what was a Penfold?

2 - Which March 703 are we talking about - any "previous"?

And was the MRE the same as their earlier F3 Car?

I think the Brian Davis March Ian was a 733, not 703. Purely OTOH, it was entered at the 1st ever FF2000 race at MP in March '75 as a 'March Richardson' - nothing else.

Andrew, your FF2000 pic must have been at the July 29/30 meet, the brilliant F1 race where TT, from the back of the grid (did he stall it??) almost caught Bruce Allison's March. First race meet I attended with Kim M, thus 1st race ever seen from the pits and with a teeny tiny bit of 'direct involvement'. Great memories...

The FF2000 race won by Syd Fox, from Mike White, and Chris Skellern. The consolation race won by David Whetton, in the Linco Beer Shampoo VD RF78, the only one made apart from the Leslie car. Anyone remember the beer shampoo sachets the Linco Beer bimbos doled out!

[Cirrus]

The March in question can't have been a 733, because the 733 was a monocoque, and FF2000s had to be spaceframe. The 703 was a spaceframe, and the 713 was available in both forms (713S and 713M). Of course, many Marches were updated with later bodywork, and the Dastle and Jamun cars seem to have used a number of March body parts.

Somebody has registered a Van Diemen RF78, and he reckons it was one of six built.

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by Henk A. Hazelaar
Cirrus,

Some photo's of FF 2000.

Henk, nice pics.

I have a 1984 Swift FF1600 that looks very familiair to this Reynard. What is the link, or isn't there?

[MCS]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
...it was entered at the 1st ever FF2000 race at MP in March '75...

The first ever FF2000 race was at Oulton Park on 28th September 1974.

It was run as a "Class B" category in the Lombard North Central Formula Three race and viewed as an introduction for the new formulae ahead of it's inaugural season in 1975.

Entries were as follows;

Ian Taylor Dulon 2000
Chris Pryor MRE 74SF
Bernard Vermilio Van Diemen
Richard Morgan Crossle

Vermilio failed to show, Taylor won, Pryor finished second and Morgan set fastest lap.

The F3 "section" was won by Henton's works March.

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Cirrus
Stephen W - you've listed many of the cars for which I am looking for pictures. You weren't, by any chance, a keen amateur photographer at the time, were you?

YES! But don't ask if I have any photos available as I am snowed under with another project!

I will at some point try to scan some of the slides and post them.

[Bonde]

Henk,

I actually worked at Delta (as a trainee) when we built that T83 for Henny Vollenberg's driver Cor Euser - 'twas the first racing car I ever worked on! The T83, although based on the lamented T82 ground effects experiment, which was the "virus" that eventually killed Delta IMO, was quick straight out of the box and won an early-season Benelux race IIRC, but form fell off subsequently. IIRC, one T83 was sold to Roger White, a nice chap and a Lydden championship exponent who also won races in a T83, another (possibly ex-Vollenberg, possibly in 1984) went to Gert Valkenburg (GEVA racing) and one was sold to a Canadian - Gord Cullen, I think. IIRC, four T83 FF2000 cars and two T83F FF1600 cars were built before Delta folded. My memory may be fooling me - perhaps the GEVA car was actually a T83F FF1600?

There was a T83 on Race Cars Direct recently - I wonder whose it was originally? I also seem to recall that GEVA bought all the T83 jigs and parts when Delta closed.

Delta's 'governor' Nick Crossley, a former Ensign F4 champion, ran succesfully in an F5000 March a few years ago - I wonder what he's doing these days, other than running his Pipecraft tubular fabrications business?

IIRC, Mick Penfold teamed up with Ken Taylor, formerly of Delta, in 1984/85 in the short lived Talon marque. The Talon was a neat car, initially run with the Metso gearbox - I don't know whether the gearbox was the Talon's eventually fatal "virus" - or perhaps it was just the bad timing of entering the US market just as David Bruns' Swift DB cleaned up Over There.


Arjan,

The DB1 Swift was such a brilliant and immediately succesful design that both Van Diemen and Reynard felt compelled to copy many, if not most (for the Van Diemen), of its features for their 1985 cars. Rumour had it in Autosport at the time that Van Diemen had actually bought or otherwise acquired access to a DB1 for perusal...

Dave Baldwin's very succesful RF85 Van Diemen had near-identical suspension design, bellhousing and sump castings to the DB1, whereas Huidekoper's (IIRC!) FF85/SF85 Reynard rather copied the aerodynamics and central radiator installation of the DB1, which Van Diemen had already used on the blind-alley RF84 - as had Mike Thompson IIRC as early as 1979 on his very advanced Quest, and, IIRC, on Leslie Drysdale's early eighties Crosslé and 1984 Mondiale.

Sorry about that long-winded post - I just got all-bleary eyed with all the nostalgia, and since it's written OTTOMH factual errors may be present...

I hope to see some of you at Brands over the weekend!

[Alan Cox]

First one is Desiré Wilson/Crosslé Lodge Corner


Second, Dave Wetton, as mentioned by Dan


I have to say, Dan, that, most unlike me, I don't appear to have any photos of the Linco Beer 'popsies'.

Third, Ross Hockenhull from a year or two later


There are a load more to be scanned over coming days/weeks. Great memories are emerging on this thread. I'd forgotten just how good FF2000 was in its heyday.

[Cirrus]

Thanks again. Just come back from a beer and a curry with Stuart Olley (Delta racer) and Iain Rowley (of Delta Motorsport - the owner of the early Delta jigs and moulds etc, and my partner in the Historic FF2000 idea).

Bonde - There was nothing wrong with the early Metso gearboxes (the ones with the VW case). They were very similar to Hewlands, but with a slightly easier arrangement for ratio changing. The later 'box, with the built-up case, I'm not so sure about - was that the one in the Talon?

As for Nick Crossley - he has recently acquired a Clasic F3 car (RT1, I think) but has had a few problems with it. He's certainly very much still on the scene.

Those SF86 Reynards, as shown in Alan Cox's last picture were also nice cars - a very integrated design that looked great, even with the body off. It's a shame that there are few places to race them at the moment.

[canon1753]

I didn't start following racing (in the states and canada) until 85-86. I knew F2000 was an up and coming series over here at that point. There weren't any sidepods or only short pods that I remember.

I was wondering about the ground effect cars. I got the sense they were a disaster. Why? Too much drag? Not stiff enough? No cheap windtunnels to test in? Or were they banned outright before everyone else needed to see the inside of a windtunnel?

Thanks!

[Cirrus]

I think you've hit on most of the ground effect problems, canon1753. Many designers did struggle to produce a spaceframe that was both narrow and adequately stiff. The FF2000 regulations also specified a fairly small overall body width, which made the "tunnels" too narrow to be much good.

The '83 Reynard proved that the straightline speed benefits of a narrow body with wide track and inboard suspension more than made up for any theoretical loss in downforce.

[Andrew Kitson]

Small piece of trivia...did you know that Desire Wilson was taught to drive ( on the road) by Trevor van Rooyen? Trevor and his ex-wife ( sadly departed) told me this years ago. They both grew up near each other in SA.

[Mallory Dan]

Originally posted by Cirrus
The March in question can't have been a 733, because the 733 was a monocoque, and FF2000s had to be spaceframe. The 703 was a spaceframe, and the 713 was available in both forms (713S and 713M). Of course, many Marches were updated with later bodywork, and the Dastle and Jamun cars seem to have used a number of March body parts.

Somebody has registered a Van Diemen RF78, and he reckons it was one of six built.

Alan, you must be right re the 733 and spaceframe factor. IIRC though, there were only ever the 2 VD RF78 2000 cars, the Leslie/works, and Wetton cars. Though I see from Alan's pic above, Wetton is in a Reynard, which, from the look of the Delta behind, must have been taken in 79 not 78. I wondered at the time why there weren't many more 2000 RF78s, as the Leslie car was a front runner from the start, and the 77 and 78 1600 cars were very quick.

I presume it was quite easy though to convert a 1600 to a 2000 RF78, and vice-versa. Or did any 2000s go abroad maybe?

[Alan Cox]

A few pictures of FF2000s culled from my posts on other threads

[Alan Cox]

Some photos from Oulton Park 22 July 1978. Sorry to say that the middle pages from my programme are missing, so I'm not certain of all the descriptions

David Leslie Van Diemen RF78 - Syd Fox in No.8

Rick Gorne's Reynard SF78 - beautifully liveried, I thought

Mike White (?) Delta T78 leads Leslie

Don't recognise 17, but Tony Halliwell follows

Blanchet Lola T580 leads (Richard Dutton No.5)

Blanchet leads Gorne

Does anyone have a programme to confirm who No. 17 is?

[Cirrus]

Dan - the guy who registered the RF78 is from The Netherlands, so maybe some cars did go abroad. I agree that it was strange that more RF78s did not get built. David Leslie's speed could not have been possible in a formula as competitive as FF2000 unless the car was at least half decent.

Alan - more great pictures. The Rick Gorne car is still racing in Classic F3 in, you'll be pleased to hear, its original livery. I'm hoping to do a few races next year in the ex Mike White Delta (albeit with '80 bodywork). I'm pretty sure the unidentified 17 is a CTG. That picture will probably find its way onto the site!

The site seems to be getting a fair number of hits, despite the promised plug in Autosport not appearing yet, and we've already got almost a gridful of registrations. FF2000 is proving to be more popular than I had anticipated!

[Henk A. Hazelaar]

Cirrus,

Some new pictures for you.

Royale RP 32M Formula Ford 2000



PRS Formula Ford 2000



Swallow=Pilbeam FF 2000
Dutch driver Wiebe Boersma





Royale RP30 Formula Ford 2000 (1981)



Tiga Formula Ford 2000



Zagk Formula Ford 2000




Regards,

Henk A. Hazelaar

[Andrew Kitson]

Were Zagk the lot who built those 'dodgy' FF1600 motors, or am I thinking of someone else?
Been discussing FF2000 tonight amongst racing topics, out for a jar with Martin Donnelly, Kelvin Burt & Jonathan 'Comtec' Lewis. That famous BBC Grandstand FF2000 race when Martin won with his nosecone/front wings missing.

[Cirrus]

Henk - do you know the year of that Zagk leaflet. I'm primaririly interested in the years 1975 to 1980, so if it falls into that category, then I'd better add it to the Manufacturers section.

[Alan Cox]

I think you are probably correct, Alan. CTG rings a bell with me.

[ian senior]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
Were Zagk the lot who built those 'dodgy' FF1600 motors, or am I thinking of someone else?

Van Zalinge?

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Alan Cox
Some photos from Oulton Park 22 July 1978. Sorry to say that the middle pages from my programme are missing, so I'm not certain of all the descriptions

David Leslie Van Diemen RF78 - Syd Fox in No.8

Mike White (?) Delta T78 leads Leslie

Don't recognise 17, but Tony Halliwell follows

Does anyone have a programme to confirm who No. 17 is?

Alan, checking the programme the following information is clear:

a) Syd Fox is Number 8 and it is TON 74 (The Old Nail)
b) It is Mike White in the T78 Delta
c) No 17 is Nick Foy in the CTG SF78 with Tony Halliwell in the Crossle 33F in close attendance.

[Mallory Dan]

You're right re Foy, Steve, I was going to say Neil Bettridge before I got to your post. I think an Aussie called Mike Quinn also had some CTG outings around this time.

I agree re the Formula Alan, for a few years, 77-79, it was really good I thought - lots of different chassis, and usually close racing. I also had some good aspiring drivers who couldn't quite afford F3 at the time eg. Leslie, Desire, White, Blanchet, Gorne, Dougall, or who were good 'amateurs', like Bradley, Fox, Halliwell, the Mike Taylors.

[Alan Cox]

Thanks Steve for searching out your programme.

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
I also had some good aspiring drivers who couldn't quite afford F3 at the time eg. Leslie, Desire, White, Blanchet, Gorne, Dougall, or who were good 'amateurs', like Bradley, Fox, Halliwell, the Mike Taylors.

Syd Fox I thought was very good. Also quick in saloons, such as in John Ewer's big Mustang in the
ETCC in 1968 and didn't he also race an Opel Commodore in prod saloons in the mid 70s?

[Alan Cox]

A few more for Cirrus to choose from:

This is the abiding memory I have of John Walker and the Myrtle Special

Maurizio Gugelmin/Lola

Peter Holden's Saracen 78

Syd Fox/The Old Nail

Ben Keir's Tiga SF79