30 replies to this topic

[hhh]

Just heard that Cosworth may be closing down after losing all hopes for a F1 engine deal for last year.
Can anyone confirm this?

It would be a real shame, having been the mainstay of Formula 1 racing for so many years and having developed the most succesfull F1 engine of all times.

[Haddock]

I'd be surprised - they supply champ car with engines, and given that they're owned by Kevin Kalkhoven, who is also a major shareholder and team owner in Champ Car, I'd have thought that business was guaranteed.

Unless of course, they're bankrupt. I know there have been a lot of job losses, but I've not heard of a serious financial crisis at Cosworth.

[hhh]

That's also what I thought, although anyone could manufacture the Champ Car engine. Most of the Cosworth parts are outsourced anyway.
But then the Champ Car engines do not sell at the prices of an F1 engine.......(although expensive to make).

Are any of the bankruptcy filings published in the UK???

[Cplus]

F1 engines are a mere drop in the ocean of Cosworth operations. The complex is bloody huge. Is bigger and has more buildings than many villages in the UK do

Perhaps just the F1 department is closing?

[angst]

Strange that this story should come up. As has been said, Cosworth supply Champcar - F1 is not their sole business. I was just thinking. Imagine a series that starts predominantly in the US market. Starts off as a spec chassis, spec engine series and slowly adds some overseas races to it's calendar - it already has some in Australia and Canada, but now adds some in Europe, and Japan. Imagine then that that series swaps it's ageing turbo engines for n/a 2.4 litre V8s - still spec, of course, but keeps expanding it's calendar worldwide. They would be, effectively, F1 cars but better - batter aero package, better controls on TC, better spectacle all round, offering an attractive proposition to race organisors and competitors alike.

Then , one day, other chassis are allowed. And soon after, alternative engines are also allowed. With a strong US market, and taking on circuits such as Suzuka, Spa (when itfalls off the F1 cart again), Silverstone (dropped by a hostile Bernie), Imola (still upset by Bernie ignoring the contract in place between them), Assen..... could Bernie's (CVC's) F1 be usurped by an American based 'F1' series? Wouldn't that American market look particularly attractive to the likes of BMW, Daimler-Chrysler, Ferrari et al?

[Rexx Havoc]

if they were in financial trouble why would they be developing a moto gp engine?

[hhh]

Cosworth was split up a few years ago with only the racing engine company going to Kalkhoven.
The engineering part is now called Mahle, so it is only a small part of the original larger Company that is in trouble.

[hhh]

Look at this site:

http://www.mahle.com...6FHNNG351MARSEN

In 1998 Cosworth is acquired by the Audi Group from Vickers with the Engineering, Manufacturing, Casting units (trading as Cosworth Technology Ltd). Racing unit trading as Cosworth Racing Ltd sold to Ford Motor Co.

2005 Cosworth Technology acquired by MAHLE from Audi Group, changing name and trading as MAHLE Powertrain from 1st July 2005. (from Mahle website)

Kalkhoven and Forsythe bought Cosworth Racing Ltd. from Ford in 2004.

They operate from their UK base with some 40 people and a US shop in Torrance, Ca. with some 50 people.

I guess that they will transfer the rights to the Champ car engine design to the US and work only from there.
Apart from the F1 engines until just now, the UK side does not seem to be doing a lot of high-income production.

[TIPO61]

Originally posted by Rexx Havoc
if they were in financial trouble why would they be developing a moto gp engine?

"They," Cosworth, aren't the company developing the MotoGP powerplant.
It's a firm formed by one of its 'former' directors. The Swiss gentleman I do believe.

[Rexx Havoc]

Originally posted by TIPO61


"They," Cosworth, aren't the company developing the MotoGP powerplant.
It's a firm formed by one of its 'former' directors. The Swiss gentleman I do believe.

so are they just licensing the name?

what is the connection??

[TIPO61]

Here ya go.

http://www.motorcycl...motogp_machine/

There must be somewhere on the Web where you could learn to 'search' before you 'post.' Gottabe.

[AyePirate]

IlMor (the ones that morphed into the current McLaren Mercedes engine program and whose cofounder Mario Illien runs the firm that makes the MotoGP engines) and CosWorth are two very different companies. Cosworth do not make MotoGP engines.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosworth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmor

[Rexx Havoc]

Originally posted by TIPO61
Here ya go.

http://www.motorcycl...motogp_machine/

There must be somewhere on the Web where you could learn to 'search' before you 'post.' Gottabe.

YO! SnAP Dawg... you got me ... search ... geez... I never taught 'o 'dat

where in the phock is there any mention of cozzy? in you linky link

oh and rather than go out on the limb and make a statement you'd rather have 1-5-25 people waste time searching the answer to a question that you obviously think that only I am obtuse enough to ask

[TIPO61]

Oh Borat...you've just never been so charming.

[aportinga]

They are in the R&D stage of producing and engine for ALMS.

[917k]

Originally posted by angst
Strange that this story should come up. As has been said, Cosworth supply Champcar - F1 is not their sole business. I was just thinking. Imagine a series that starts predominantly in the US market. Starts off as a spec chassis, spec engine series and slowly adds some overseas races to it's calendar - it already has some in Australia and Canada, but now adds some in Europe, and Japan. Imagine then that that series swaps it's ageing turbo engines for n/a 2.4 litre V8s - still spec, of course, but keeps expanding it's calendar worldwide. They would be, effectively, F1 cars but better - batter aero package, better controls on TC, better spectacle all round, offering an attractive proposition to race organisors and competitors alike.

Then , one day, other chassis are allowed. And soon after, alternative engines are also allowed. With a strong US market, and taking on circuits such as Suzuka, Spa (when itfalls off the F1 cart again), Silverstone (dropped by a hostile Bernie), Imola (still upset by Bernie ignoring the contract in place between them), Assen..... could Bernie's (CVC's) F1 be usurped by an American based 'F1' series? Wouldn't that American market look particularly attractive to the likes of BMW, Daimler-Chrysler, Ferrari et al?

Oh brother, more ''Champcar to conquer the world'' posts

Your scenario, incredible as it is, fails to take into account the deep **** CC is in financially, as well as the horrible on-track product they present. F1 will never have a problem if they continue to produce seasons as memorable as this past one.

Yeah, maybe in 50 years your dream will be fulfilled [anything to topple F1 is good enough for you], but more likely the series is dead and buried by then.

I get tired of listening to those that pine for F1's demise, especially when we were treated to such spectacle these past few months. Why not enjoy what you have instead of endlessly thinking of ways to see F1 supplanted?

[AyePirate]

Originally posted by 917k



Oh brother, more ''Champcar to conquer the world'' posts

I just want North American open wheel to stop losing top drivers to NASCAR and get more than
a "yeah whatever" look from F1 regarding Champcar's three time champ before I start dreaming of taking over the World

[Rexx Havoc]

Originally posted by 917k

I get tired of listening to those that pine for F1's demise, especially when we were treated to such spectacle these past few months. Why not enjoy what you have instead of endlessly thinking of ways to see F1 supplanted?

where does he "pine" for F1's demise

in the real world he stated
"could Bernie's (CVC's) F1 be usurped by an American based 'F1' series? Wouldn't that American market look particularly attractive to the likes of BMW, Daimler-Chrysler, Ferrari et al?"

it was a statement stating that F1 like series could be attractive to manufacturers

plain and simple

no replacement of F1, mearly an alternative series "possiblity"

[rbdwin]

The use of "usurp" implies taking the place of, not an alternative.

As to the suggestion that Champcar has "batter aero package, better controls on TC, better spectacle all round," as far as I know traction control is legal and is used in Champcars (see the entry for "Traction Control" here http://www.champcarw...sp?LanguageID=1) and when the series runs on circuits similar to F1 circuits (or identical, in the case of Montreal) I haven't noticed any substantailly greater degree of passing -- and what there is is as likely to be explained by a lesser degree of preparation and professionalism from the teams and drivers than by the differences in the aero packages between the series -- or otherwise "better spectacle" despite the often manipulated yellow-flag situations.

[angst]

Originally posted by rbdwin
The use of "usurp" implies taking the place of, not an alternative.

As to the suggestion that Champcar has "batter aero package, better controls on TC, better spectacle all round," as far as I know traction control is legal and is used in Champcars (see the entry for "Traction Control" here http://www.champcarw...sp?LanguageID=1) and when the series runs on circuits similar to F1 circuits (or identical, in the case of Montreal) I haven't noticed any substantailly greater degree of passing -- and what there is is as likely to be explained by a lesser degree of preparation and professionalism from the teams and drivers than by the differences in the aero packages between the series -- or otherwise "better spectacle" despite the often manipulated yellow-flag situations.

That's a glossary of terms.

Try this little gem

http://www.champcarw...Comparisons.asp

No traction control in Champcars - the drivers have to do the work - as bizzare a concept as that may seem .

[angst]

Originally posted by 917k



Oh brother, more ''Champcar to conquer the world'' posts

Your scenario, incredible as it is, fails to take into account the deep **** CC is in financially, as well as the horrible on-track product they present. F1 will never have a problem if they continue to produce seasons as memorable as this past one.

Yeah, maybe in 50 years your dream will be fulfilled [anything to topple F1 is good enough for you], but more likely the series is dead and buried by then.

I get tired of listening to those that pine for F1's demise, especially when we were treated to such spectacle these past few months. Why not enjoy what you have instead of endlessly thinking of ways to see F1 supplanted?

I just put forward a possible scenario - one that involves a racing series which a) is a more attractive proposition to race organisors and fans and b) already has one large, reasonably healthy foot in the American market. That Cosworth have been squeezed out of F1, and that, maybe, Cosworth might decide to use that very modern, up to date and expensively developed motor in place of their ageing turbo unit would make them very much an al;ternative to F1 - and any manufacturer that wished to take part, should the series chose to open up competitively, would already have an engine that fits the bill.

You talk of the "spectacle" these "past few months", but I have to ask - what spectacle? The on track racing was......... crap. The Championship was tight, and statisticians must have been whooping with delight at that, but what really happened on track. Take out the Champoionship battle, and the tensions therein, and what, really, did we have?

And, btw, I don't "pine for F1's demise", I mourn F1's demise. More than ever now it is a marketing exercise, first and foremost - it's a profit making empire that rips off fans, race organisors, tax payers, even the teams, for the benefit of a few very wealthy individuals who wish to be even wealthier.

[xflow7]

Originally posted by angst


That's a glossary of terms.

Try this little gem

http://www.champcarw...Comparisons.asp

No traction control in Champcars - the drivers have to do the work - as bizzare a concept as that may seem .

It's true that there's no TC in ChampCar, but that comparison page is pretty out of date. CC Min weight has included the driver since 2004 if I'm not mistaken.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Rexx Havoc
if they were in financial trouble why would they be developing a moto gp engine?

Well maybe they are not in financial trouble, they just close operations which dont bring income anymore.

[rbdwin]

Originally posted by angst


That's a glossary of terms.

Try this little gem

http://www.champcarw...Comparisons.asp

No traction control in Champcars - the drivers have to do the work - as bizzare a concept as that may seem .

They made a fuss a few years ago about allowing traction control, but I guess they've changed back again....though I'm not sure I understand what its presence or absence has to do with anything since it will make little or no difference to how the cars appear or perform.

I guess it's a measure of the alleged "attractiveness" of this series, that holds a street race in my city, that I had no idea that it had gone more luddite than it already is. Then again, nobody I know pays any attention to CART/Champcar anymore.

[sammich]

Traction control was legal for 2002 only. Toyota and Honda wanted it and got it so when they left at the end of the year is was outlawed again.

[AyePirate]

Originally posted by micra_k10

Well maybe they are not in financial trouble, they just close operations which dont bring income anymore.

Again... it's Ilmore that is now in MotoGP not Cosworth,

[Pilla]

I think the cost of building and maintaining each F1 engine could be more than the Turbos and break some teams budgets. Perhaps if they limited the revs and extended the life per engine.

[shaggy]

Originally posted by 917k



Your scenario, incredible as it is, fails to take into account the deep **** CC is in financially, as well as the horrible on-track product they present. F1 will never have a problem if they continue to produce seasons as memorable as this past one.

Define "deep." How much money has CC lost ?
"Horrible on-track." Compared to the "exciting on-track" product F1 shows ?
Was it "exciting" to watch MS come from last place and pass F1 drivers (allegedly the "best" drivers in the world) as if they were slow moving chicanes ?

F1 does have a problem when Williams, Toyota and Honda cannot compete with Ferrari. Even Renault were going to leave F1 (which is the reason Alonso left the team). That is a problem.

shaggy

[saudoso]

Originally posted by Rexx Havoc


where does he "pine" for F1's demise

in the real world he stated
"could Bernie's (CVC's) F1 be usurped by an American based 'F1' series? Wouldn't that American market look particularly attractive to the likes of BMW, Daimler-Chrysler, Ferrari et al?"

it was a statement stating that F1 like series could be attractive to manufacturers

plain and simple

no replacement of F1, mearly an alternative series "possiblity"

Tony George just trashed it by splitting IRL from CC.

Ferrari had leaked plans for an Indy 500 contender. I wast just drolling over the drawings at I don't remember wich magazine.

Mercedes Benz (before the Daimler-Chrysler deal) did a great job on exploiting a rule loophole and featuring a 500 winner NA engine.

It's going to take a long time before an American based series recovers the respect from 'the rest of the world', since the rest of us were so graphically dumped that time.

This Quote from the wikipedia:

After British driving star Nigel Mansell's successful battle with Emerson Fittipaldi for the 1993 World Championship, a lot of people interpreted his victory as evidence of the superiority of non-US drivers. This, combined with CART's move to include more road racing on the schedule, led to a split of the series after the 1995 season due to a dispute between egos at CART and Tony George, owner of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. George went on to form a new racing series, the Indy Racing League (IRL), which initially included an all-oval schedule, all races on US soil, and mostly American drivers.

I'll just refrain from commenting on IRL.

Ricardo

[saudoso]

Just to get back on topic, if it is to leave F1 at all it will join a huge crowd of honorable guys, like Brabham, Lotus, Tyrrell, Goodyear, Porsche, Jordan, BRM, Maserati, Lamborghini, Toleman, Alfa Romeo, and much more, a big, big list!

The Cosworth DFV will never be forgotten.

Ricardo

[ehagar]

Originally posted by AyePirate
IlMor (the ones that morphed into the current McLaren Mercedes engine program and whose cofounder Mario Illien runs the firm that makes the MotoGP engines) and CosWorth are two very different companies. Cosworth do not make MotoGP engines.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosworth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmor

Actually, there is more to the story than you may think... Cosworth *was sort of* in MotoGP when they made the Engine for the Aprilia RS3. It was a three Cylinder bike that featured a pnematic valve return, had an arrangement similar to a 3.5 litre F1 V10 with 7 cylinders lopped off.

It was a disaster of a bike. The biggest problem was that you have to approach engine development differently for a bike than a F1 car. Ilmor appears to at least understand that, Cosworth didn't.

A little article on the 'born bad' RS3 Cube:

http://www.motorcycl...rilia_rs3_cube/