36 replies to this topic

[NineOneSeven]

Does anyone know why Porsche refuse to come into F1? After all the money they are making from us I feel we deserve to see Porsche race in F1. They are so profitable its sick! They can sell sponsership easy. Now F1 is becoming so much more affordable too...

Imagine Porsche lining up with the rest of the great names. I'd love to see the return of Lotus and Audi entering too.

I guess I'm dreaming but hell its not like they are short of a few euro's is it?

[giacomo]

Porsche actually entered F1 in 1991. It was a fiasco.

Since then Porsche is not interested any more.

[NineOneSeven]

Yep know about that and thats the past... I still think we deserve to see Porsche line up next to Ferrari.

Just wondered if anyone felt the same or knew what the company felt with regards to F1.

[troyf1]

I'd love to see Porsche in F1 but they have made their name in sportscars and probably figure they can't get a good ROI from F1. Can't say I blame them either :

[jokuvaan]

F1 has so weak link to road cars that it would make no sense.

Like some automakers arent in WRC because road cars arent used anymore.

[carbonfibre]

F1 supports a hightech image which suits Porsche just fine.

I believe Porsche left because it became to pricey, they are still independent if im correct.

[jokuvaan]

Yes F1 has hitech image but its fading as more and more people learn about reality of F1 rules and how its making it car museum.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by NineOneSeven
Does anyone know why Porsche refuse to come into F1? After all the money they are making from us I feel we deserve to see Porsche race in F1. They are so profitable its sick! They can sell sponsership easy. Now F1 is becoming so much more affordable too...

Imagine Porsche lining up with the rest of the great names. I'd love to see the return of Lotus and Audi entering too.

I guess I'm dreaming but hell its not like they are short of a few euro's is it?

Last time they were dropped by Arrows after less than half a year.

DROPPED.

BY.

ARROWS!

That's like Yuji Ide voluntarily leaving your team.

[NineOneSeven]

Originally posted by Dudley


Last time they were dropped by Arrows after less than half a year.

DROPPED.

BY.

ARROWS!

That's like Yuji Ide voluntarily leaving your team.

[917k]

Originally posted by giacomo
Porsche actually entered F1 in 1991. It was a fiasco.

Since then Porsche is not interested any more.

TAG-Porsche of 1983-86 was extremely successful.

BTW-thread title [as usual] mislabeled, needs a ?

[fuz]

Porsche have won a grand prix before, Gurney in 62 IIRC

[lukywill]

Originally posted by giacomo
Porsche actually entered F1 in 1991. It was a fiasco.

Since then Porsche is not interested any more.

tag-porsche. with mclaren. extremely sucessfull. but i think costs didn´t pay. mcleren took hondas from the famous 88 championship.

84-wdc-wcc
85-wdc-wcc
86-wdc

[canon1753]

Answer- too much money and risk for any return on investment. Ergo No Porsche in F1.

One thing to remember, the TAG-Porsche motor was designed and built by Porsche and paid for by TAG and McLaren.

The other thing about the 1991 foray was that the motor was unreliable, heavy and cumbersome. Some have said that the basis for the V12 was putting 2 TAG turbos engines together. The Judd V8 was a more effective motor also because the V12 engine was underdeveloped and underfunded.

Edited. Hyatt has the original....

[LS 1]

It's also worth noting that Porsche's biggest seller--a big reason for those profits--is not a sports car but an SUV, the Cayanne (sp?). Moving away from racing, not closer to it, has made Porsche more profitable.

You know the old joke: How to make a small fortune in racing? Start with a large one. Racing costs $$$ and, with the noteable exception of Ferrari, the benefit is rather hazy and indirect, allegedly through promoting the name and thus selling more new cars. Wonder how many Cayanne buyers watch F1? Not many, I'll bet.

[Hyatt]

Originally posted by canon1753

One thing to remember, the TAG-Porsche motor was designed and built and paid for by TAG and McLaren.

i'm pretty shure the Porsche-engine was designed and build by Porsche ... anything else doesnt make sense

[Insane111]

From what I know, the basic engine was made to specification by Porsche for Barnard to fit in the chassis he designed. Then TAG hired some people to develop it to race capabilities and voila, 3 drivers and 2 constructors championships. Twas a team effort. Not strictly a Porsche engine though I don't think.

[canon1753]

Originally posted by Hyatt


i'm pretty shure the Porsche-engine was designed and build by Porsche ... anything else doesnt make sense

Let me rephrase- Porsche designed and built the motor to the specs laid down by John Barnard and McLaren. TAG financed it.

Thanks for catching that...

I need to hire a proofreader....

[FLB]

Originally posted by LS 1
It's also worth noting that Porsche's biggest seller--a big reason for those profits--is not a sports car but an SUV, the Cayanne (sp?). Moving away from racing, not closer to it, has made Porsche more profitable.

Not so much about the Cayenne, but Porsche has been the most profitable car company for a while now (Money spent vs Money earned, not Total Gross Income). This was before the Cayenne, which was sort of a last minute effort to cash in on a particular market that Porsche was not exploiting. Moving away from racing did not make them more or less profitable; it's simply that they have shown that you do not need to be racing to be profitable.

In other words, F1 would simply be an expense for them. They don't need it.

[jhodges]

Porsche is the most profitable car company in the world and don't really need the added cost of being associated with F1. Their prestige has been built on sportscar racing and they have been massively successful at it.

[windsok]

This topic came up on another forum I visit back in 2004. One of the posters there is some bigwig for Porsche in Japan, this is what he had to say:

well, believe it not Last week I met the big chairman of Porsche, and he was shaking with laughter when we asked him to re-consider F1 from a marketing point of view. He has BMW and Mercedes Benz in mind which are spending an incredible amount of money for F1, and are becoming a laughing number in the German press. Burning cars, crashes, far behind everything etc.

F1 is nice to have, but it is now a number too big for Porsche which is by far the smallest independent car manufacturer. It's already a miracle that Porsche can survive and they will not risk the company's independence by spending for many years 30% of the company's net profit for F1. There is no benefit, unless you indeed win. And even wining F1 does not mean you sell more cars, as we can see with Ferrari. There is also no technology transfer at all between F1 and street cars, there is only image damage and lost money of you don't win, see BMW and Mercedes.

[chrisuofc]

I lost respect for Porsche when it gave up racing in order to focus it's efforts on a SUV. A freakin SUV.

[stevewf1]

Porsche actually won a GP (1962 - Rouen) and did (ahem) quite well in the 80s as an engine supplier... Then they had that disastous attempt in the early 90s...

I once heard that Porsche won't go into F1 now because it's too expensive... They are a relatively small, privately owned and profitable company, and it would be foolish for them to risk all the "family jewels" on an F1 venture...

[jhodges]

Porsche cannot be considered a small independent when they now own at least 30% of the VAG. They do correctly identify the risk of being in F1. When I drive a BMW today I find myself disappointed with the lack of steering input feel.....I mean, they run an F1 car, right? This car should be on rails!

Porsche does fell like its on rails. They have *nothing* to prove. Unlike Ferrari they spend a LOT on advertising. Ferrari is and has been racing since the WC started. Porsche has been a top tier racing marque since '64 and ultimately the 917. They know sports prototypes is where their collective bread is buttered.

[kNt]

They're developing a serious racing car again, the RS Spider. I think the second iteration of that had some more inhouse involvement.

I could only see them in a lot cheaper type of F1 or a kind of competitive GP2.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally posted by NineOneSeven
Imagine Porsche lining up with the rest of the great names.

F1 is a sport for Toyota, Honda and Renault.

One day they will be joined by Hyundai, Suzuki, LADA etc.

[Hyatt]

Originally posted by chrisuofc
I lost respect for Porsche when it gave up racing in order to focus it's efforts on a SUV. A freakin SUV.

their SUV is more or less a rebadged VW Touareg, i dont think they put in too much efford ... SUVs are hip and they wanted a share of the market ...

[Anomnader]

Originally posted by jhodges
Porsche cannot be considered a small independent when they now own at least 30% of the VAG. They do correctly identify the risk of being in F1. When I drive a BMW today I find myself disappointed with the lack of steering input feel.....I mean, they run an F1 car, right? This car should be on rails!

That 30% ownership is false, with Porsche and VAG being so tightly wound together (family board members) Both Porsche & VAG took splits in each others companys to offset the risk of a hostile take over attempt.

[Mark A]

Originally posted by Hyatt


their SUV is more or less a rebadged VW Touareg, i dont think they put in too much efford ... SUVs are hip and they wanted a share of the market ...

Porsche spent a lot of time and effort developing that car.



Personally I'd rather see Lotus back in F1 than Porsche.

[Haddock]

Peculiar this, but I reckon Honda has done quite well out of their involvement in F1 over the years - its helped to build up their reputation as - first and foremost - an engineering company. When I think of Honda, I do think of a technologically driven company - and some of that may be an illusion created by their involvement in F2.

I think Cosworth's F1 involvement has probably helped shift a few Fords over the years too. I mean, you used to know a Ford was a proper hot-hatch when the word 'Cosworth' appeared at the end. I remember going to races in the late 80s and early 90s and a lot of folks parked up in their Sierra and Escort Cosworths. (They were great looking cars in a tacky kind of way, too)

I'm not sure that, Ferrari aside, though, any of the other big manufacturers really benefit from being in F1. I mean - Jarno Trulli looked racy in the Toyota last week, so I'll go and buy a Yaris? Can't see it.

Porsche would have to be able to go head to head with Ferrari to benefit from involvement in F1 - and unless they bought the remnants of another major team (say, when Toyota finally realise they're wasting their time), there's no way they would.

[Hyatt]

Originally posted by Mark A


Porsche spent a lot of time and effort developing that car.

you know more about it? please enlighte us ...

[Jerome]

I think Porsche has nothing to gain from F1. If I take a boy of twelve, and I say to him: 'What's a Porsche?' His eyes will begin to shine and he will say: 'That's a very fast car!' If I say to him: 'And a Toyota?', he will start rolling his eyes and say: 'Nah, That's my grandpa's car.'

Toyota gets a faster, sexier image by being in F1, just as BMW and Mercedes (via DTM and McLaren). Porsche has already a fast image. Getting into F1 can only be detrimental to that image (If you see how far Toyota are still, from being WC contenders)

[andy-i]

Porsche's heritage and racing soul belongs in sportscars.

Take at the 917. Its just as iconic as any F1 car, probably more so.

I dont see a benefit for them in F1. Look what happened to Jaguar, what a waste of money. Compares badly with the sucess of Bentley and Aston in Sportcars/GT racing.

If the FIA stop ****ing about with the rules we could have a meaniful championship with:

Porsche
Audi
Peugeot
Maserati
Lambo
Aston
GM

Ford and/or Jaguar and a few other manufacturers maybe? + all the small idependents.

Andy.

[Hyatt]

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
Toyota gets a faster, sexier image by being in F1, just as BMW and Mercedes (via DTM and McLaren). Porsche has already a fast image. Getting into F1 can only be detrimental to that image (If you see how far Toyota are still, from being WC contenders)

why compare Porsche with Toyota? why not compare it with Ferrari? why is Ferrari in F1, does it hurt their Image? no, why should it hurt Porsches image?

[Kilted Wanderer]

Porsche, despite it's profitability, is still a small manufacturer - it regards the cost of F1 unwise and unsustainable. It is tentatively re-entering the prototype arena again, but not with a full works package, and a large part of this effort is to satisfy the US market demand for motorsport link.

Despite the tie-ins with VW, the numbers don't add up. VW to start with does not have deep coffers and has not performed well for years. Porsche know that to ensure their survival as an independent, they need large reserves to develop new models. This is why the Cayenne has been such a success. Those who criticise it's existence have to accept that the choice of it over a prototype or F1 motorsports programme has strengthened the balance sheet rather than depleting it. The Cayenne has also not been at the expense of the rest of the model range - quite the opposite.

Many compare Porsche to Ferrari and point to Ferrari's success and financial sustainability. They are however, very diffferent beasts - whilst Ferrari produce circa 4000 cars a year, last time I looked Porsche are knocking out numbers in the 100,000's. This still doesn't make Porsche a medium-sized manufacturer, rather it imposes upon them the costs of developing cars that have to be ultra-reliable and useable in a way Ferrari's aren't and never will be. And of course Ferrari's motorsport programme is propped up by sponsorship in a way that Porsche would find hard to emulate.

[Jerome]

Why didn't it hurt Ferrari when it did not win a wc for twenty years? Because they have a totally different image than Porsche. Ferrari is Passion and Speed, Porsche is Brain and Speed. Something like that. A Ferrari that fails to win is still a beautiful car, a Porsche that loses is a failed piece of engineering.

Very enlightening in this aspect, is what Mark Donahue writes about Porsche in The Unfair Advantage. The people that worked (or used to work) there are very rational, win-orientated engineers. People who work at Ferrari are very form-orientated passionado's. Both manufacturers attract different kind of customers. And therefore would enter F1 or any motorracing on a very different path.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by 917k
TAG-Porsche of 1983-86 was extremely successful.

It was. But it wasn't an official Porsche works entry. Porsche developed and built the TAG engines according to John Barnards wishes for McLaren.

OTOH 1991 with Arrows was an official Porsche works entry. And it was a fiasco.

[senna da silva]

Originally posted by Hyatt


their SUV is more or less a rebadged VW Touareg, i dont think they put in too much efford ... SUVs are hip and they wanted a share of the market ...

SUVs may be trendy but they sure as hell aren't hip!