39 replies to this topic

[merlyn6]

Does anyone here know the differences between a Lotus 23B and a Lotus 23C?
All I can remember is the C was fitted with a MK5 Hewland instead of the MK4, and the C had wider wheels with the attendant flairs. (And I’m not even positive about that)
I don’t know the size of the wheels though.

It looks like I will be tasked with restoring a B to its former C specs. (It really is a C model which is being run currently as a B)

[MichaelM]

Would I be correct in saying the C also had 6 bolt front hubs/wheels?

[Ray Bell]

The Geophegan 23B had wider wheels from the first time it appeared...

The only 23 I've ever seen that was called a 23C was John Roxburgh's and I'm not sure whether it was or he just said it was.

[klemcoll]

Now I may be confusing a 23 with a 23B, but one of the updated versions had angled extra tubes along the upper side tubes through the cockpit area.

[David Birchall]

I do recall seeing one in the 1970s for sale in a shop in Calgary Alta, Canada. The chassis plate clearly said 23C but I don't recall what the differences were beyond wider wheels. The car went to England I was assured later.

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
The Geophegan 23B had wider wheels from the first time it appeared...

The only 23 I've ever seen that was called a 23C was John Roxburgh's and I'm not sure whether it was or he just said it was.

Ray, Did you mean the Geoghegan in your lat post .??????

[Dallas84]

Originally posted by cosworth bdg
Ray, Did you mean the Geoghegan in your lat post .??????

Peter, did you you mean 'last post' in your last post?

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Dallas84



Peter, did you you mean 'last post' in your last post?

Yes...........

[Lotus23]

Hmmm...I'm not a real Lotus historian, but I've never heard of a 23C. Mine was what we called a "23A", but its chassis plate read simply "23-S-28". The B's then were easily distinguished by wider wheels/tires and ran rear fender flares, as opposed to the A, which had enclosed rear wheels.

I dug out my copy of Doug Nye's excellent 1972 book The Story of Lotus 1961-1971 and in its Appendix 1 is listed:

"LOTUS 23 -- Sports-racer developed from Lotus 20/22 [FJrs]. Wide choice of engines, 997cc, 1,097cc [which mine had] and 1,599cc Fords most popular. Wheelbase 7ft 6in; max. track 4ft 3 1/2 in; length 11ft 8in. 131 off [built].

"LOTUS 23B -- Sports-racer using modified and strengthened chassis and Lotus-Ford twin-cam engines. All late-model 23s produced to this chassis specification. Included in Lotus 23 production total."

No mention of a 23C.

Don't know if this clarifies or obfuscates. Doug?

[Rosemayer]

Not a lot of help but here you go.
Cheers Rosey


http://www.utahlotus...m.com/id101.htm

[Dutchy]

I recall a Lotus 23C raced in the UK in the 1970s and early 80s by a man called Christopher Metcalfe. It looked nothing like a Lotus 23 at all - the bodywork looked like it had been taken from something else a little bit like a 1970s 2 litre Group 6 car
Sadly Mr Metcalfe can't enlighten us as he is no longer alive. He was no doubt an interesting man as he started racing before the war (at Brooklands in a Fiat Balilla I believe).

[Cynic]

Doug Champlain raced a Lotus described as a 23C in the SCCA Runoffs at Daytona in 1967. His 23C was fitted with a 1.5 liter Climax V8, presumably an ex-F1 engine. He also brought a 23B on the top of a double-deck trailer, as a spare car.

I believe I have photos of both; I'll try to find them and have them converted to digital in my next batch.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Dutchy
I recall a Lotus 23C raced in the UK in the 1970s and early 80s by a man called Christopher Metcalfe. It looked nothing like a Lotus 23 at all - the bodywork looked like it had been taken from something else a little bit like a 1970s 2 litre Group 6 car
Sadly Mr Metcalfe can't enlighten us as he is no longer alive. He was no doubt an interesting man as he started racing before the war (at Brooklands in a Fiat Balilla I believe).

Same with Mr Roxburgh... but he didn't race at Brooklands...

I think it's just a case of people upgrading their 23s and deciding that, since it's been 'advanced' so far away from the original it needs a new designation.

Bob Britton's a laugh. Whenever he builds a 23 replica chassis (he must have done quite a few over the years), he faithfully builds it with a lousy corner in the chassis where the gear linkage comes through. "Chapman made a mistake there," he told me once, "and he never fixed it, and everyone who's ever copied the 23 has built in the same error!"

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by Dutchy
I recall a Lotus 23C raced in the UK in the 1970s and early 80s by a man called Christopher Metcalfe. It looked nothing like a Lotus 23 at all - the bodywork looked like it had been taken from something else a little bit like a 1970s 2 litre Group 6 car
Sadly Mr Metcalfe can't enlighten us as he is no longer alive. He was no doubt an interesting man as he started racing before the war (at Brooklands in a Fiat Balilla I believe).

When he raced at the Eight Clubs' Silverstone, C. LeStrange Metcalfe's Lotus 23C was said (on his entry form) to have a McLaren body, but what it was off I don't think we were ever told.
He was doing around 64 second laps in 1978, but slackened a couple of seconds by 1982 when we saw him there last. Even allowing for changes in Silverstone's Club Circuit, that still looks pretty nifty for an 80-something-year-old.

[Geoff E]

Christopher Le Strange METCALFE was born on 23 May 1907 in the Wakefield district. He died March 1988 in Westminster district aged 80.

[David Birchall]

I am fairly certain there was a model designation "23C". The one I mentioned earlier certainly had a chassis plate that said so. The prevalent wisdom I recall was that it had modified pick up points to accomodate the wider wheels. I have never seen anything written about them though....

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by Geoff E
Christopher Le Strange METCALFE was born on 23 May 1907 in the Wakefield district. He died March 1988 in Westminster district aged 80.

He was younger than I thought. But then I suppose a 75-year-old seemed older to me then than he would now.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Lotus23
I dug out my copy of Doug Nye's excellent 1972 book The Story of Lotus 1961-1971 and in its Appendix 1 is listed:

"LOTUS 23 -- Sports-racer developed from Lotus 20/22 [FJrs]. Wide choice of engines, 997cc, 1,097cc [which mine had] and 1,599cc Fords most popular. Wheelbase 7ft 6in; max. track 4ft 3 1/2 in; length 11ft 8in. 131 off [built].

"LOTUS 23B -- Sports-racer using modified and strengthened chassis and Lotus-Ford twin-cam engines. All late-model 23s produced to this chassis specification. Included in Lotus 23 production total."

No mention of a 23C.

Don't know if this clarifies or obfuscates. Doug?

I was advised long ago to obfuscate whenever possible. I don't recall an 'official' 23C in period, but there's no telling what reference might be available which I actually missed or overlooked in my research at that time. If I'd been aware of it I would not have knowingly omitted it.

DCN

[klemcoll]

Doug,

For what it's worth I drove one of these in 1963, an ex-Ian Walker car, and knew various others in those years. I agree with your description of the difference between the 23 and 23B. The latter is how the ones with the extra frame tubes were always referred to back then.

[BT 35-8]

The late Glyn Scott's car was ex the works 7-5-66 and was ch.# 23-S-130 , and the 2nd last car delivered in the factory records .
Whilst this car was sometimes refered to as a ' C' version , I don't believe the ch. plate reflected this .This car did have flared rear guards and from memory 6 spoke Type 33 wheels.

Of more interest is e.g. ch.# 23-S-101 , P.O. [ post office ] Red , Series two /chassis A , but ch.# 23-S-103 is Med. blue , [ IL 1019 ] Series one , however by the time we get to ch.# 23-S-112 , we have , Lightweight , white , special chassis , series two , that car seginated to del. Bob Challman , but with a MK. 4 Hewland not a MK. 5 .
A lot of the later cars , have various comments , such as , Special chassis, stiffened chassis , lightweight panels etc.

The last car in the records is 23-S-131 , Series B , dk. blue , less eng. and gearbox , del. to Lotus Southwest.

Perhaps Mr. Nye can assist .

Bryan Miller.

[BT 35-8]

Make that designated to Bob Challman , apologies.

[Cynic]

This was listed as a Lotus 23C at the 1967 SCCA Runoffs at Daytona. It was powered by a Cosworth 1.5 liter V8, and was owned and driven by Doug Champlin (heir to Champlin Petroleum). This would appear to have been the reason for his DNF. The other car is a Bobsy driven by Chet Freeman.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Doug Nye


I was advised long ago to obfuscate whenever possible.

DCN

Obfuscation is the thief of time on TNF

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by Cynic
It was powered by a Cosworth 1.5 liter V8 . . .

[cstlhn]

On the entry list for the LA Times GP in 1964 there are two curious Lotus 23Bs listed. One was listed as a Lotus Porsche 23B and the other Lotus Alfa 23B? Does anyone know anything about either of these cars?

David

[klemcoll]

Who was listed as the driver of the Lotus-Porsche?

[David Birchall]

George Follmer made his name initially in a Porsche powered 23B didn't he?

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by BT 35-8
Make that designated to Bob Challman , apologies.

Bryan,

Apologies if you already know this but even if you do this might be of interest to other TNFers. Bob Challman was the proprietor of Ecurie Shirlee Distribution Corp, based in Manhattan Beach, California, who were the exclusive distributors for Lotus Cars in the Western United States. So I would guess that this car was for a customer rather than Challman himself.

IIRC, Dan Davis, the editor of Victory Lane magazine, raced a Lotus 23 for Lotus Southwest in period, maybe he might have some info about that car?

[cstlhn]

Originally posted by David Birchall
George Follmer made his name initially in a Porsche powered 23B didn't he?

George seems to like the number 16!



David

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by David Birchall
George Follmer made his name initially in a Porsche powered 23B didn't he?

Sure did. He drove it to the 1965 USRRC championship. The series was scored equal points for both over and under two liters. Follmer had a great season, winning under two liters at almost every one of the nine (as I recall) events. He took one overall win, at the season opener in Pensacola. Jim Hall won six races overall in his Chaparral 2, but had mechanical troubles in the other three. Hence, Follmer had more points than Jim and was the champion. I have been told that rankles Hall to this day! The next year SCCA quietly redid the points system so that the championship would be decided on overall, not class, placings. Not to take anything away from Follmer; he absolutely dominated the U-2 scene that year and yes, that did make his name in racing and he went on from there to a long and very distinguished career.

[Lotus23]

I watched Follmer win that day at Pensacola. That Lotus-Porsche was very nicely constructed -- professional all the way. And of course he was no slouch as a driver!

Any idea where that car is today?

[BT 35-8]

Michael,

Yes , sort of , I knew Bob Challman was a Lotus distributor , and I also knew the name Ecurie Shirlee , however I didn't know the two were the same , thank you.
Bryan.

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by BT 35-8
Michael,

Yes , sort of , I knew Bob Challman was a Lotus distributor , and I also knew the name Ecurie Shirlee , however I didn't know the two were the same , thank you.
Bryan.

Much more on this in Ortenburger's book on the Elite

Roger Lund.

[NGSmith]

Challmans car is 23/S/64 is currently in the Phillipines and hopefully back here in CA in the near future. It was the Ecurie Shirley/challman team car.

Nick

[cstlhn]

I came across this photo from Nassau 1965. I can't determine which type of engine it has? Looks like a V6?



David

[starlet]

David, according to you ?
What else than a beautiful V6 Ferrari !

[olav glasius]

Graham Capel just wrote a book about the Lotus 23.
It will be out within three weeks, in the preview,
if I remeber well,was a note,the 23 C never existed.

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by BT 35-8
Michael,

Yes , sort of , I knew Bob Challman was a Lotus distributor , and I also knew the name Ecurie Shirlee , however I didn't know the two were the same , thank you.
Bryan.

Bryan

Something on the dealer network I found on the simplesevens website today, which has a fascinating section on the life story of Sy Kaback, who raced various Lotus sports cars (including a Lotus 15-Buick), a Lotus 20 FJ and briefly test-drove a 23 and entered it for the 1962 Sebring 12 hours but bizarrely didn't get to race as they couldn't get into the circuit because the circuit owners had closed the gates half an hour early!

There are some interesting photos of the sister car (which I think did race) on the same site. In terms of chassis #, no-one knows but it must have been an early one and there is speculation that it may even have been 23-S-1 or whatever car was exhibited at the Racing Car Show.

Anyway, to get back to the original point, this is what the site says about the US dealer network:

"The distributorship of Lotus he [Kaback] had was one of those "Chapman deals", where exclusive distributorship was offered to several people in the same area. Quite a lawsuit evolved, and as Lotus was beginning to start serious importing, a more structured distributorship arrangement was developed with Peter Pulver setting up Lotus East in Millerton NY, a Lotus Midwest in Chicago was briefly operating and Challman's Lotus group "Ecurlie Shirlie" on the West coast took over the original Jay Chamberlain operation."

Don't know if this helps but it is all background knowledge!

Michael

[BT 35-8]

Michael,

I have quite a few books on Lotus including Doug Nye's first two , The Story of Lotus , MK 1 and Mk2 and also Theme Lotus , and have probably read all that you have listed , however being more involved in Brabham , March and Chevron these days , it has all dropped of the radar screen unfortunately.

The case of 23-S-1 being the car over in the US is better left to someone with a more intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the factory, one presumes this to be the car in the famous photo with Jim Clark at Nurburgring , and I suppose it could well have been sent to your side of the pond to drum up sales.

The records that I have indicate 23-S-1 , -, - , - , .meaning zero info.
However they could well have had a prototype as well , Mr. Nye may know.

What is very interesting is how late Renault gearboxes were still being fitted to new sales , the latest I can see being 23-S-72.

Bryan.

[barrykm]

Don't know about anyone else...but I just hate seeing 23s with flared arches..? Really spoils the lovely lines of the original.