30 replies to this topic

[bubulle]

Hello

In 1986 at Talladega, Tim Richmond' Monte Carlo reached 240 mph during a comparative test with an IMSA Porsche 962. In 2005, Rusty Wallace, without restrictors, reached "only" 228 mph. How can a 80s car be faster than a 2000s car? It' s even more strange when you consider that Wallace average was 221 mph, while Bill Elliott avg for the Talladega 500 qualifying in 1987 was 212.809 mph. Would that mean that today's cars are slower in the straights but faster in turns?

[McGuire]

No, today's cars carry considerably less aero drag. Tim Richmond and Harry Hyde set that trap speed at TRC, a private test track in Ohio with an oval more than seven miles around.

[McGuire]

The current trap speeds at the big non-plate tracks are in the 205-210 mph range.

[Rexx Havoc]

I won't quote the speeds because I really could care less
but for my fellow forumer I will answer your question accurately

a few weeks ago at Talladega the infinite wisdom of nascar ruled that they were going "TOO FAST" (due to the repaving) so they "REDUCED" the "RESTRICTOR" plate diameter by 1/16th of an inch in order to slow the cars down below their magic speed number

I think they said it cost the teams approx. 75 H.P.

this time it wasn't for the "children" ... it was for the "FANS" saftey

enjoy the WWF of auto racing my friend

[sblick]

Yes todays cars are "slower". They might be faster in the turns but slower all together. If you read the whole story on the NASCAR vs Porsche; the Porsche wasn't optimized for a top end run plus it had the huge wing on back and its ground effects tunnels. The NASCAR was taped off and had every ounce of horsepower it could produce. Maybe someone will correct me but NASCAR back then worried about aero before downforce. While the IMSA cars were worried about downforce and then top speed. Wasn't an Indy car in that comparison also. Since the 80's you have had restrictions on NASCAR engines for Carb, heads, valve size and angle, manifolds, size of rear spoiler, how far off the ground the chin spoiler is, side skirts, roof height, rear gears. It is endless. To me it is not surprising that a car from the 80's is faster, especially if you saw Bill Elliot run at Talledega. I agree also this test was done at TRC in Ohio and not at Talledega.

[thomaskomm]

Hello!
I have datas about your question: Top speed today with restrictor plate racing depends which bore the plate have. Usually top speed about 200 mph is forbidden on Superspeedways Daytona or Talladega. The last Talladega race for two weeks in the first practise friday the fastest lap had Jeff Gordon with more than 198 mph per lap. Here was the top speed surely ca. 205 mph. But in the race the lap average was clearly six or seven mph lower causing the plate bore was smaller!!
Rusty Wallace drove 2003 (I believe) with his #2 Miller Dodge without restrictor plate in Talladega!
He drove an Lap average from 228 mph! He said in the interview:" with tweaking setup and draft in Talladega on Race trimm an lap average appr. 235 mph per lap is realistic"! This is an top speed from ca. 245 mph (!) but this were very dangerous.
The Cup cars from 1987 had appr. 680 hp on the flywheel (maxrev: 8100 -8200), today Cup cars with the SB 2 have more than 870-880 hp (the best engines) on the flywheel (maxrev 9600-10 000), they have lesser drag than eighties aerocars, depends on the rearend how fast there are..
Cup cars with restrictor plate have depends the wholes on plate appr. 440 hp on the rearwheel plus 80 hp (don´t forget this was the data after the race!) for the drivetrain 520 hp (maxrev 7400), 2001 they had 40 hp lesser....

Most of this datas i have from www.jayski.com look under "engines"

Hopes this help, i know about the engines from the cup cars seventies and eighties not much, online i searching permanently about the engine development cup cars from history.

Thomas

[itsbmw]

I remember one of the announcers at a plate race earlier this year remarking that the C6 Z06 pace car had more HP than the race cars!

[McGuire]

Originally posted by sblick
Yes todays cars are "slower". They might be faster in the turns but slower all together.

Not really so. Only at Daytona and Talladega are the cars slower, which is solely due to the restrictor plates. On all the other tracks the current cars are LOTS faster, both in trap speeds and cornering speeds. For example, at Michigan the current lap record average is nearly 30 mph faster than it was in 1985 (194 mph vs. 165 mph).

[McGuire]

Originally posted by itsbmw
I remember one of the announcers at a plate race earlier this year remarking that the C6 Z06 pace car had more HP than the race cars!

Yep. As Dan Davis of Ford said, NASCAR plate motors are the most expensive 420 hp engines in the world.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Rexx Havoc
I won't quote the speeds because I really could care less
but for my fellow forumer I will answer your question accurately

a few weeks ago at Talladega the infinite wisdom of nascar ruled that they were going "TOO FAST" (due to the repaving) so they "REDUCED" the "RESTRICTOR" plate diameter by 1/16th of an inch in order to slow the cars down below their magic speed number

I think they said it cost the teams approx. 75 H.P.

this time it wasn't for the "children" ... it was for the "FANS" saftey

enjoy the WWF of auto racing my friend

So... never mind the facts, this is all about your precious opinions LOL.

BTW, the recent plate revision was 1/64", not 1/16". You were only off by 4x.

[Rexx Havoc]

Originally posted by McGuire

BTW, the recent plate revision was 1/64", not 1/16". You were only off by 4x.

I stand corrected ... thank you

[bobqzzi]

Another factor to consider is that Richmond's engine wasn't Nascar legal. It was oversized by quite a bit

[sblick]

Originally posted by McGuire


Not really so. Only at Daytona and Talladega are the cars slower, which is solely due to the restrictor plates. On all the other tracks the current cars are LOTS faster, both in trap speeds and cornering speeds. For example, at Michigan the current lap record average is nearly 30 mph faster than it was in 1985 (194 mph vs. 165 mph).

I stand corrected.

[thomaskomm]

Today Nascars Cup cars are way more sophisticated race cars than back in the eighties.
Not only aero drag are less, the tires are way better and last not least the better pushrod engines.
Surely the cars were today without Plates in Daytona way faster than 1987. But remind the tires, if they hold more than 230 mph average hours long??? In Talladega 1969 the first race on the track the big Cup cars tires hold only 4 (four!) laps than they were absolutely down! The great Nascar drivers didn´t start in the first Talladega race cause they had too many fear! The incidents were too dangerous by this High speed, the cars went over the fence.. like 87 almost Bobby Allison.
The pushrod engines with their caburettors (with fuel injection the engines would have over 1000 hp!) have less fuel mileage than the current Formula One cars. The "old" pushrod technology generate more than 150 hp per litre! If you compare the price of one Formula One Hightech engine with the small block spec. SB 2 Cup car engine: 500.000 $ F1 and 60 000 - 100 000 $ the Cup car. A Cup car engine you can more than 10 x rebuild.
I know F1 can´t compare with the Winston (eehhh Nextel) cup but i love Oval racing (since my first Simulation N3 from Papy)!! But Nascar have a great history and very great Driver (i think J.D. McDuffie; he had from 63 until 91 653 Winston cup starts and was never famous or won one).
Or Ricky Rudd my absolutely favourite Driver in Nascar....He had 878 starts in Winston Cup which they were 788 in a straight line from February 1981 until Novembre 2005!

Thomas

[phantom II]

Nice post. There is a subtlety in NASCAR that is not in F1. For a nation that likes instant things and is always in a hurry it is ammusing that the driver and the fan of NASCAR has to be patient and appreciate the long term planning involved in the win.
Learning the grooves and watching the track conditions change over 3 or 4 hours in order to plan a pass maybe 20 laps ahead is immense pleasure to me. It is a wonderful way to spend an afternoon.
I love NASCAR also. If it has tits or tires, I'm in. It takes a number of years to fully appreciate NASCAR or oval racing. Brace yourself, Thomas.

[i]
I know F1 can´t compare with the Winston (eehhh Nextel) cup but i love Oval racing (since my first Simulation N3 from Papy)!! But Nascar have a great history and very great Driver (i think J.D. McDuffie; he had from 63 until 91 653 Winston cup starts and was never famous or won one).
Or Ricky Rudd my absolutely favourite Driver in Nascar....He had 878 starts in Winston Cup which they were 788 in a straight line from February 1981 until Novembre 2005!

Thomas [/B]

[McGuire]

Originally posted by thomaskomm
Today Nascars Cup cars are way more sophisticated race cars than back in the eighties.

Way more sophisticated. Especially in the past six or seven years. If you are smart enough to look past the pushrods, carburetor and live axle into what these cars are really about, you can see they are easily as sophisticated as any race cars outside F1. But then big money will do that.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by McGuire


Way more sophisticated. Especially in the past six or seven years. If you are smart enough to look past the pushrods, carburetor and live axle into what these cars are really about, you can see they are easily as sophisticated as any race cars outside F1. But then big money will do that.

If NASCAR did not tightly control the carbs used, they would be putting out even more horsepower now, and be more tractable than they are.
Carbs now available for other uses, are far, far more advanced than they were twenty years ago.

Fuel injecton would do nothing to increase the horse power, but would make tuning easier, not require the high buck boys who know how make a carb. wake up, of course computer hackers are probably just as expensive.
Bob

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by McGuire
you can see they are easily as sophisticated as any race cars outside F1. But then big money will do that.

Really, it would be fair to say approaching the level of F1. I've heard stories of F1 aero guys and Cosworth both being more than a little stumped at what they found.

A. As it was it 'didn't make sense'
B. Making it so 'it made sense' wasn't as good.

At that point you go back and really sort stuff out for several months and find out what is really going on. It doesn't happen over night.

[McGuire]

Yep. The cornering speeds are so high that aero becomes everything, which often leads to counter-intuitive decisions in chassis setup to gain downforce and aero balance.

Also, and I don't want to make this sound like I am knocking road racing because in no way am I, but on road courses the setup window is much wider... lots of different corner speeds on every track so there is naturally more compromise involved. On ovals you have four very similar (usually) corners and maybe .4 second per lap from pole to DNQ. So often a very small change, seemingly in the wrong direction, will move a car from the back to the front. Or from the front to the back, which is really confusing.

In the past there were a lot of social and other walls (terminology, mindset, equipment, methods) between NASCAR and everything else, but in recent years they have pretty much disappeared.

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by itsbmw
I remember one of the announcers at a plate race earlier this year remarking that the C6 Z06 pace car had more HP than the race cars!

May i show my ignorance , but just what is a PLATE race. Down under we do not have NASCAR racing, is it a form of restrictor on the engine?

[imaginesix]

Yeah, a restrictor plate on the engine intake. It completely alters the form and style of racing such that the only viable strategy is to draft like your life depends on it. Thus it gets it's own name; "Plate Race".

Even the ensuing, predictable, massive pileup gets it's own name; "The Big One".

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by imaginesix
Yeah, a restrictor plate on the engine intake. It completely alters the form and style of racing such that the only viable strategy is to draft like your life depends on it. Thus it gets it's own name; "Plate Race".

Even the ensuing, predictable, massive pileup gets it's own name; "The Big One".

Thank you very much for the information , it was very much appreciated, Cheers ,P.N.

[desmo]

Why do they run so much wheel travel at road tracks compared to pure road racers? It actually looks very cool for lack of a better word from the undercar cams. I like that view, it really shows the massive tire deformations. Surely there's insights to be learned just watching video of the tire deforming as the car laps.

The drivers really look like they're earning their money muscling those tanks around- big steering inputs, long shift throws, brake pedal soft from the heat.

[thomaskomm]

Originally posted by McGuire
Yep. The cornering speeds are so high that aero becomes everything, which often leads to counter-intuitive decisions in chassis setup to gain downforce and aero balance.

Also, and I don't want to make this sound like I am knocking road racing because in no way am I, but on road courses the setup window is much wider... lots of different corner speeds on every track so there is naturally more compromise involved. On ovals you have four very similar (usually) corners and maybe .4 second per lap from pole to DNQ. So often a very small change, seemingly in the wrong direction, will move a car from the back to the front. Or from the front to the back, which is really confusing.

In the past there were a lot of social and other walls (terminology, mindset, equipment, methods) between NASCAR and everything else, but in recent years they have pretty much disappeared.

Hi McGuire,
that is not right, setup in oval racing is one of the toughest parts in racing!! The setup in Cup cars had in the last 10 years (source: Rusty Wallace) absolutely changed!
Setup questions with special tools was in Nascar racing since 1940! In my mind the high development setup (sorry my bad english) was originaly from the stockcar guys.
If you want to be fast in oval racing race trough the turns you have to develop a good setup!

Thomas

[thomaskomm]

Originally posted by thomaskomm


Hi McGuire,
that is not right, setup in oval racing is one of the toughest parts in racing!! The setup in Cup cars had in the last 10 years (source: Rusty Wallace) absolutely changed!
Setup questions with special tools was in Nascar racing since 1940! In my mind the high development setup (sorry my bad english) was originaly from the stockcar guys.
If you want to be fast in oval racing race trough the turns you have to develop a good setup!

The setup in the car is very different, you have very careful to tune every and i say every corner of the car. Today the F1 guys have excellent researching tools for every track in their schedule. At example they can before race weekend simulated the race on their researchcenter. So they need only the weather for the real weekend and they have the basis setup!
It cost very much money and you can imagine why they spend over 100 millions and more $.
Road racing setup is a compromise between all turns and the straights. As the two race 1957 and 1958 "The two world" in Monza where the roadster indycars versus Formula One cars took place, the european guys were astonished how the indy guys careful tuned their carsetup!!
You know? A very famous racing driver said: "Indianapolis racing is like a Music concert plays on a guitarr with only one string!! But it is very fine!"


Thomas

OH SORRY; DOUBLE POST!

[McGuire]

Originally posted by thomaskomm


Hi McGuire,
that is not right, setup in oval racing is one of the toughest parts in racing!! The setup in Cup cars had in the last 10 years (source: Rusty Wallace) absolutely changed!

I believe you misread my posts. Actually we are not in disagreement.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by desmo
Why do they run so much wheel travel at road tracks compared to pure road racers?

Relative to any other road racers you are liable to see, the NASCAR equipment is considerably overweight, overpowered and under-tired. And has a rear beam axle and a high CG.

For wheel travel I marvel at the desert racers. Those things are like motocross bikes on four wheels. I don't know anything about them other than watching them run on TV and looking them over on the floor at trade shows, but they appear to have well over a foot of bump.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by cosworth bdg
May i show my ignorance , but just what is a PLATE race. Down under we do not have NASCAR racing, is it a form of restrictor on the engine?

Exactly. On all tracks the cars must run a particular Holley 4150-series four-barrel carburetor. But at Daytona and Talladega, NASCAR's two longest and fastest tracks, in order to limit speeds the cars must also run a restrictor plate between the carb and the manifold spacer. The plate is 1/8" aluminum and has four 7/8" holes drilled over the throttle bore centers. (Approximately -- the exact size may be periodically adjusted.) This restricts the engine's output by over 50% to around 420 hp.

The plate also creates some peculiar wrinkles in engine development, as you can imagine. These engines are freaks in every way.

[McGuire]

[shaun979]

Originally posted by McGuire
I don't know anything about them other than watching them run on TV and looking them over on the floor at trade shows, but they appear to have well over a foot of bump.

If I recall right I think some of the Baja Trophy or Pro trucks have 2-3 feet of wheel travel.

=====

Agree that Nextel Cup racing is very advanced. The minds follow the money. Isn't it second only to F1 in terms of budgets?

I never really had much appreciation for oval racing until I experienced it live - all the chaos the crew has to deal with, how narrow the margins for error are on setup and pit stops (couple tenths can lose half dozen or more positions), the guts of the drivers (constant high speeds across long distances, three wide turns, open wheel). Everything happens so fast.

[thomaskomm]

Mc Guire, OK!
I have fun to write in this thread cause for me it´s very interesting.

Nascar Nextel cup teams spent over 15-20 million per car today. Is very high budget racing.

Thomas