63 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

Apologies if this subject has been discussed to death before, but a search involving these 2 brings so many references that I cannot face trawling through them to see if they are relevant.

So... I am finally getting stuck in to 'Kings of the Nurburgring' by Chris Nixon. To anyone who has not seen this book, after some introductory stuff, he devotes a long chapter to each of the drivers he considers fall into the above group.

This is not the place to discuss the relative merits of each - other than to say that I cannot see Graham Hill being included and Dan Gurney not - but that's just my opinion.

It became very clear to me as I read chapter 4 - Ascari, that the author clearly rated Alberto ahead of Fangio. This view is repeat in chapter 5 - Fangio.

The evidence he produces to back up his feeling is fairly compelling and it led me to wonder how others feel.

The overlap of their careers measured about 5 years during which time they won 2 championships each, and may have ended up covering 7 or 8. So my question is, do you think that Fangio would have racked up 5 championships and been elevated to, arguably, the 'best ever' if Alberto had not decided to test that Ferrari at Monza?

[Paul Parker]

What if 10 times methinks.

Certainly some thought AA faster than JM-F (Hawthorn was one I think) but personally I believe, subjectively that Fangio was superior. Certainly it would have been much more difficult for Fangio to have won in 1954 had Ascari been driving a competitive, reliable GP car but it was noticeable at Monaco '55 that he could not match Fangio on speed despite having arguably a more suitable machine for the twisty streets. Indeed without checking I seem to recall that Castellotti was quicker.

Some drivers reach a peak then start to slowly lose pace, others like Fangio reach a peak and stay there. I believe that Ascari had peaked out at the time of his death and had begun his decline. He was self evidently at his absolute best in 1951/2/3 when he was quicker than Fangio, if not so precise (again somebody else's analysis, Moss perhaps.)

[ensign14]

The theory was that Ascari was peerless when up front but when battling was a bit lost - and of course the GP de l'ACF in '53 that saw his first "proper" defeat in ages was a slipstreamer with cars dicing around, and Fangio outfumbled him at Italy.

However, I don't know how true the theory actually is...

[Ray Bell]

Yes, Moss thought that Fangio was more accurate... and didn't Raymond Mays say he was more consistent?

[HDonaldCapps]

More glue for Elmer's to sale I reckon.....

As much as I truly admire and respect Fangio, I have always placed Ascari just a slight bit ahead of him in my Heart-of-Hearts.

The best thing about Scuderia Ferrari for a number of years was Ascari, something of a reverse of the usual, all too typical view that is held by most today. If you study the contemporary scene, you will note that there is scarcely much that is really any more "objective" than the swill being generated today, but if you note what the drivers had to say, scarcely a difference of any opinion as to just who the top two men were in the grand prix business of the day.

Both were immensely talented and successful, but at the time I always seemed to place Ascari ahead of Fangio. Indeed, although I managed to speak with Fangio on several occasions during the era, my time with Ascari at Torino in 1955 is still one of the "Big Events" in my racing life. I had been following racing somewhat up to that point, that is, being at many a race, but after that I was Involved, I really began to Pay Attention, if you will. Being that I am still "involved" even today, I am scarcely the most objective person on this topic.

So, Barry, no way of knowing an answer to your question regarding the "best ever," but had Ascari been around a few more seasons I think it is safe to say that things would have been quite different as regards more than a few reputations. Plus, there is always the tantalizing prospect of Ascari returning to the IMS....

I think that Ascari was far superior to Senna, Schumacher, and all the other usual speed gods trotted out from recent decades for whom hosannas are generally raised. Indeed, I think Ascari and Clark were cut from the same bolt of cloth and both often underappreciated to an extent.

All this should not be taken as detracting from Fangio, simply that he and Ascari were very different people with differing viewpoints on the world. Had I been a team manager in those days, I would probably plopped for Ascari as my first choice. Contrary to some, I don't think that he had "peaked" at the time he left us. I feel that there was still a great deal left in the old boy....

Just an opinion, of course.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Contrary to some, I don't think that he had "peaked" at the time he left us. I feel that there was still a great deal left in the old boy....

Although of course there is the possibility that Fangio had peaked in about 1946 and all we ever saw was the Decline of JMF...

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by ensign14
Although of course there is the possibility that Fangio had peaked in about 1946 and all we ever saw was the Decline of JMF...

Remember, Ascari lost a good chunk of years due the Great Unpleasantness of 1939/45, so it works both ways.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
As much as I truly admire and respect Fangio, I have always placed Ascari just a slight bit ahead of him in my Heart-of-Hearts.

I think that Ascari was far superior to Senna, Schumacher, and all the other usual speed gods trotted out from recent decades for whom hosannas are generally raised. Indeed, I think Ascari and Clark were cut from the same bolt of cloth and both often underappreciated to an extent.

Apologies for selecting just two bits of your post, and I have to admit that almost all my knowledge of that era has come from books, but I couldn't agree more. I doubt if you'd find many there who know anything about Ascari Jr and Fangio, but I dare you to post that second part in the snake pit of Racing Comments.....

[Paul Parker]

Being the devil's advocate I could add that at the time of Ascari's death he had not been racing a great deal since the middle of 1954, what with the Ferrari business and the Lancia delays, so his form might have suffered simply due to lack of racing miles.

As for WW2 all drivers of a certain age suffered this, but I still think Fangio's consistent supremacy bar '52/53 when he was compromised by injury and inferior equipment was remarkable given his years.

Meanwhile realistic comparisons between drivers of differing eras are simply not possible. Nor do I believe that Clark was often unappreciated. I was there and I can assure everybody that he was held in the highest esteem by all and sundry including his peers.

[Arjan de Roos]

Comming back to the question, I guess the material at hand for both maestros should be studied as well. I guess Fangio would have had his drive at Mercedes, while Ascari would have returned to Ferrari with the D50 and should have been unbeatable in 1956 (assuming Lancia still would have withdrawn as they did). And maybe catching 1958 as his last championship with the Dino.

So Fangio would have been champ max 4 times... Hey, and what if Clark....? 1968, 1969, 1970, 1972..

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Paul Parker
at the time of Ascari's death he had not been racing a great deal since the middle of 1954

True, I have him in only 12 races in the 12 months before his death
In the same period, Fangio raced 14 times

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by kayemod
Apologies for selecting just two bits of your post, and I have to admit that almost all my knowledge of that era has come from books, but I couldn't agree more. I doubt if you'd find many there who know anything about Ascari Jr and Fangio, but I dare you to post that second part in the snake pit of Racing Comments.....

That how we got to have TNF in the first place....

Originally posted by Paul Parker
Meanwhile realistic comparisons between drivers of differing eras are simply not possible. Nor do I believe that Clark was often unappreciated. I was there and I can assure everybody that he was held in the highest esteem by all and sundry including his peers.

I will stick to my original notion: Clark was and is underappreciated. All too often, both then and now, Clark was, for lack of a better term, taken for granted. His fellow competitors admired and respected him and those of us trackside loved him. However, way too often -- then and now -- there was/is the idea that he had the best equipment, therefore, he should be the best. I subscribe to the notion that perhaps the fastest thing about a Lotus was Clark.

I am not certain that there is a real appreciation for Ascari amongst modern racing sorts, even here on TNF. He was an amazing figure on the racing scene and a true racer. Ascari and Fangio truly define an era in grand prix/ European racing.

Let me add that when Ascari left Scuderia Ferrari during the Winter of 1953/54 and moved to Lancia, I was not quite able to support Ferrari with the same enthusiasm ever again, even when another underappreciated driver was on the team, Phil Hill.

Then again, just my opinions and views.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by David McKinney

True, I have him in only 12 races in the 12 months before his death
In the same period, Fangio raced 14 times

But how many racing miles did they cover? I think Ascari had a lot of early retirements in that period.

The remarkable thing to me is how little they really raced against each other. Ascari didn't get a competitive Ferrari until the middle of 1951, Fangio missed all of 1952 and Ascari's 1954 was patchy to say the least. Looking at Fangio's performances in the early part of 1953, you have to suspect that either he wasn't fully fit or the Maserati was not as fast as the Ferrari. We will never know how 1955 might have developed, but I suspect that Daimler-Benz's resources would have outstripped Lancia's

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
But how many racing miles did they cover? I think Ascari had a lot of early retirements in that period.

I suspect you're right - I didn't check that aspect
(My main purpose was just to wind up the earlier poster ;) )

[Ray Bell]

Just to throw another spanner into the mix...

Might a continuation of Lancia and Ascari into 1955/56 have led to Mercedes-Benz remaining in the fight for that next year?

[ensign14]

Not unless it meant Le Mans would not have happened.

[Ray Bell]

I don't really subscribe to that thought, myself...

If Lancia's presence during the year, along with Ascari, had tended to intrude on their dominance, I think they would have been back. Le Mans or no Le Mans.

[santori]

Might I add - what if Jean-Pierre Wimille had not been killed in 1949? He was only three years older than Fangio.

[Barry Boor]

Don said:

Just an opinion, of course.

...and that's exactly why I started this thread.

Thanks to all who have contributed so far.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
.....do you think that Fangio would have racked up 5 championships and been elevated to, arguably, the 'best ever' if Alberto had not decided to test that Ferrari at Monza?

Zeroing right in on this question, I think there is something important to consider...

Fangio was immortalised by drives like Nurburgring 1957 and Rouen the same year, surely? And there were other drives in his career, singular heroic drives, that stood out in a career full of victories.

Did Ascari have any of these? For these are the things that make legends... right?

Like leading 80% of the 1953 Mille Miglia and then finishing second with the steering tied up with wire. Would Ascari have done that? Is there anything in his life story that matches that?

Calmly waiting on his 250F as the pit stop was botched, firing up to return to the circuit and then demolishing the record lap after lap, demolishing the young tigers who thought they had him beat.

And still being able to get the tyres to chirp under brakes at Sandown at 70+ years of age... without anything at all being obvious to the onlooker.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps


I will stick to my original notion: Clark was and is underappreciated. All too often, both then and now, Clark was, for lack of a better term, taken for granted. His fellow competitors admired and respected him and those of us trackside loved him. However, way too often -- then and now -- there was/is the idea that he had the best equipment, therefore, he should be the best. I subscribe to the notion that perhaps the fastest thing about a Lotus was Clark.

This may be on a tangent, but the ground has been broken, as it were. At the recent Topeka SCCA Runoffs the esteemed Chris Economaki was holding court in the press room. One of the many comments he made was that Jim Clark, while a great driver, was not a racer as he never proved himself passing people. After a moment or two of silence, several voices, almost at once, answered with virtually the same words....."HE NEVER HAD TO!"

I was one of those voices, and this is an area where I definitely disagree with Mr. E.

[Ray Bell]

He may not have had to do much passing... but he had to do some!

He was among those trading places at Longford in 1965. That drive back through the field at the German GP in 1962. Another comeback drive at Monza in 1967. Indianapolis. Roughing it with the 4-cyl Climax in 1961. Passing Surtees at Solitude. Dicing with Amon at Sandown. And you never win at Monaco without doing some overtaking, do you?

I don't think anyone can say that Clark never did any overtaking...

Not that it's terribly relevant to this thread.

[Paul Parker]

Ask Gurney, Phil Hill, Salvadori, Surtees and any of the survivors of those days about Clark. I seem to recall several comeback drives through the field including the '62 German GP, Aintree 200 1963, Italian GP 1967 off the top of my head without thinking too hard.

Certainly he more frequently led from the front but that's what you are supposed to do as have others in this category (Fangio for instance.) What you could say is that it was a great pity that his best years (as with Gurney and Surtees) were spent driving 1.5 litre F1 cars that did not allow him to show how good he really was in a single seater. His remaining years of course were compromised by the interim 2.0 litre Lotus 33 and the H16 43 in '66 and early '67, so he only had one season driving the 49 bar the '68 South African GP.

Returning to Ascari, without a competitive/reliable car in 1954 he could not and would not have won the championship. This rules out both Lancia (delayed debut) and Ferrari (uncompetitive).

In 1955 even if Lancia had continued it is unlikely that they (inc. Ascari) could have matched Mercedes Benz, given the (almost) guaranteed reliability and driver strength of the German team.

Beyond this, who knows. I believe Ascari's form was beginning to fade but that's a personal opinion. Certainly he would not have suffered the all too obvious antipathy that Fangio endured from EF. Presumably too Enzo would have hired him, rather than JM-F who might then have returned to Maserati in 1956 with Moss that perhaps would have pushed out Behra.

As I said in my original post this is what if territory times 10.

[wdm]

Originally posted by santori
Might I add - what if Jean-Pierre Wimille had not been killed in 1949? He was only three years older than Fangio.

I doubt if he'd have raced for much longer. He was quoted as giving it "one more year, maybe two..."

[James Page]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
And you never win at Monaco without doing some overtaking, do you?

I didn't think Clark ever won at Monaco? Or am I missing something?

I agree that Ascari tends to be overlooked compared to Fangio. The only time I can remember him getting any sort of recent mention was when Schumacher looked like overhauling his record of consecutive Grand Prix wins. But any man who got into Jenks' personal hall of fame must have been doing something right.

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by Paul Parker
I believe that Ascari had peaked out at the time of his death and had begun his decline. He was self evidently at his absolute best in 1951/2/3 when he was quicker than Fangio, if not so precise (again somebody else's analysis, Moss perhaps.)

Moss qualifies as the ultimate expert on this. I recall an interview with him where he talked about himself onlooking off track at Monaco. Both Fangio and Ascari were passing. Moss was quite impressed by Fangio only just touching a bale of straw on each lap repeatedly while Ascari just passed by.

Ascari is maybe overrated to Fangio due to his walk-over years in 52-53. But then if Ferrari had had a solid machine for him in 1954, the dip in his GP results wouldn't have been so dramatic.

[Sharman]

Forgive me for asking but who is Chris Economaki and why is he esteemed?

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Sharman
Forgive me for asking but who is Chris Economaki and why is he esteemed?

He's some kind of US equivalent to Murray Walker isn't he?

[Vitesse2]

The Dean of American Motor Sports. IIRC he was the excited journo who interviewed Graham Hill on the grid in East London in 1962 when the question "So, Graham, what's significant about the straight here?" elicited the response "Well, it joins one corner to another ...."

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
The Dean of American Motor Sports. IIRC he was the excited journo who interviewed Graham Hill on the grid in East London in 1962 when the question "So, Graham, what's significant about the straight here?" elicited the response "Well, it joins one corner to another ...."

Pretty much what I said then, the US equivalent of Murray Walker.....

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos
Ascari is maybe overrated to Fangio due to his walk-over years in 52-53.

Perhaps the same can be said of Fangio being overrated to Ascari since he wasn't around to challenge Fangio during most of 1955 the 1956-57 period.

It is interesting that relatively few here or in the motor racing community really give Ascari much thought today, generally heaping praise (and rightlfully so) on Fangio and almost universally placing Ascari on a lesser level, generally assigning the machine the credit and not the driver. That always disturbs, bothers me, even if I rarely say anything concerning it. Although I can see how this notion of being dismissive of Ascari has come about, that doesn't necessarily make it correct.

I am not one to play this childish, pointless game of "my driver is better than your driver," but Ascari was a considerable talent, part of the bedrock of his era, so it is with a certain resignation that I accept that his "place" will always be not quite what I think it should be, even among the elite thinkers. It seems to be pretty much a matter of being in the wrong era, the early 1950s being something of a dimly-lit and little-known period in grand scheme of things, especially in that constitutes what topics get discussed and mulled over. To me, Ascari is one of those I will alway rate very highly. Along with others from the same period: Curtis Turner, Ted Horn, Fireball Roberts, Rex Mays, Red Byron, Tim Flock, Lee Petty, Jimmy Bryan, Herb Thomas, and Bill Vukovich -- but, I digress since that is another story....

As I have mentioned, I still remain convinced that the fastest thing about the Ferrari Tipo 500 was Alberto Ascari. While I am at it, I also consider, merely as a personal opinion (of course), that the best grand prix season for Fangio the racer -- displaying the sheer determination and grit that made him a great, was 1953.

Just an opinion, of course.

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by kayemod
Pretty much what I said then, the US equivalent of Murray Walker.....

No, I don't think so, since Economaki is actually a real journalist and has been around racing since he began hawking the Bergen paper at the track in the 1930s and then developed NSSN a few years later. Whatever Chris' faults might be -- like all of us he has a few, he knows motor racing and is still a very sharp individual. He has a depth of knowldge that is generally nothing less than amazing at times.

Not sure if he was the individual concerned in the 62 ZA story, since I don't recall that incident, but such things happen to even the best of those in front of the cameras.

[Paul Parker]

I do not think that any serious and/or well informed motor racing fans/pundits under rate AA, at least in the circles I move in.

If any do it is simply that the subject in question and his contemporaries are in the long distant past, over 50 years ago. I suspect that those who do not fully appreciate Ascari's achievements were probably not even born when he was racing (ditto to a lesser degree Clark.)

Additionally there is no doubt that the mechanically reliable Ferrari 500s of 1952/53 were the best cars overall and given that Ascari was probably the fastest driver in European racing at that time then it is no surprise that he won so convincingly.

Fangio's status did of course owe something to good fortune above and beyond his supreme talent and also of course he survived into old age thus keeping his legend alive. Winning 5 World Champioships was quite incredible at a time when reliability was with exception never guaranteed.

[Pablo Vignone]

Regarding 1952/53 Ascari walk-over, remember that Fangio did not take part in the 1952 World Championship!

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by Pablo Vignone
Regarding 1952/53 Ascari walk-over, remember that Fangio did not take part in the 1952 World Championship!

So? Ascari had to bounce around for rides during the 1954 season. Life was like that.

Also, the WDC then was scarcely the Be-All-&-End-All it is in our current diminished, blighted age. Important, perhaps, but not the bellybutton of all that is racing, the darkstar of motorsports.

[Ray Bell]

Again, I ask...

Did Ascari ever perform any of those heroic feats as did Fangio at the Nurburgring in 1957?

My apologies for the Clark gaff.

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps


Perhaps the same can be said of Fangio being overrated to Ascari since he wasn't around to challenge Fangio during most of 1955 the 1956-57 period.

I fully agree to that!

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps

It is interesting that relatively few here or in the motor racing community really give Ascari much thought today, generally heaping praise (and rightlfully so) on Fangio and almost universally placing Ascari on a lesser level, generally assigning the machine the credit and not the driver. That always disturbs, bothers me, even if I rarely say anything concerning it. Although I can see how this notion of being dismissive of Ascari has come about, that doesn't necessarily make it correct.

Of course in 1952-1953 it was a walk over for Ascari: Fangio partly absent, but still some team mates to get rid of: Farina, Villoresi, Taruffi, Serafini, Hawthorn, ...

Ascari wasnt around anymore in the sixties until the nineties to promote himself. I dont mean that Fangio blatantly promoted himself, but his appearances at many events helped with how we think of him today. Ascari in a way has been slowly forgotton. Ferraris adagio "When a Ferrari wins, its the car that did it" didn't help much either.

I still have Ascari Jr as one of the best ever.

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Again, I ask...

Did Ascari ever perform any of those heroic feats as did Fangio at the Nurburgring in 1957?

Yes.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Yes.

A question that relates to both this and Arjan's statement then, how come I know nothing about them?

And I have been reading everything I can about racing since about 1960...

[Doug Nye]

Was Fred better than Ted, did Joe ever Blow, was Jill on the Pill...? These kind of comparative debates seldom seem to achieve much of great substance, other than to perform the valuable function of sharing information. I never saw Ascari in person, I did see Fangio, but never saw him race. However, from Fangio's first-hand testimony and from that of people I respect who knew Ascari very well he was dazzingly quick, and consistent, and he had considerable mechanical sympathy. Does this sound familiar? That's right, pretty much what is said over and over again about Fangio.

Fangio definitely had great respect for Ascari, and in his Mercedes-Benz honeymoon he did not relish racing the possibility of having to race against Ascari if the Italian was in a fully-developed D50 Lancia.

As for Chris Economaki - certainly immensely experienced, knew his stuff, bit of a showman, not above delivering BS to the masses when he felt like it, but usually pretty defensible BS. If he really said that Jimmy Clark couldn't race then he certainly hadn't seen some of the Formula 2 and touring car and sports car races we had seen here and sur le Continent. It's true that 90 per cent of the time JC didn't have to - because he'd GONE - but that other 10 per cent was there OK. I think there is truth in the contention that he wasn't used to doing it. And that's a different issue.

DCN

[Ray Bell]

While I don't consider this to be on-topic...

If I can just hark back to Clark's race at Longford in 1965... suffering from a top end miss, on the fastest circuit of the Tasman series, with two straights of over a mile each and one not that long, but entered through the slowest corner on the circuit... he battled for the whole race, passing and repassing, hitting second place once, against cars with more power.

'nuff said!

Back to Ascari v Fangio.

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
A question that relates to both this and Arjan's statement then, how come I know nothing about them?

And I have been reading everything I can about racing since about 1960...

Guess you are not reading the right books....

One learns to keep an ear cocked whenever Economacki speaks since he is not above stirring up things to see who is actually listening.... the JC quote sounding as if it falls into that category.

This has been, generally, a delightful waste of time, particularly in light of DCN's comments. I was lucky to see both Ascari & Fangio on the track and wonder why we always have these often mindless "either or" sorts of things with Fred, Ted, Ned or Ed being trotted out as if this were some sort of elimination contest....

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


A question that relates to both this and Arjan's statement then, how come I know nothing about them?

And I have been reading everything I can about racing since about 1960...

Then you obviously didn't find anything about the 1953 German GP. Or the 1954 Mille Miglia. Or the Italian GP the same year
(OTTOMH)

[Barry Boor]

and wonder why we always have these often mindless "either or" sorts of things

Sorry! I will think twice before starting another....

[Wolf]

Originally posted by Barry Boor


Sorry! I will think twice before starting another....

I honestly don't think Don had you in mind when writing that*...;) This seems to be one of those nice threads where one can both learn stuff as well as engage in fanciful game of 'what ifs'.

Moss said in 'All but my Life' that he wasn't sure whether Ascari was faster of the two or Fangio, but that he felt Fangio had that extra 'something'- be it smoothness, precision or 'concentration' (my guesses, SCM described it with previosly mentioned straw bale example). I would have (driving-wise) have similar example of such comparison, but I will not digress with something that belongs more in RC than in here.

* as title fittingly suggests- it's about Fangio and Ascari, rather than Fangio or Ascari or Fangio vs. Ascari

Don- I don't think many in here have 'either-or' attitude, but one will naturally have own favourite (between the two) for whatever reason. Sometimes, as in this case, even the 'objective' differences are subtle- so e.g. when one says Fangio might have been better racer, that doesn't mean Ascari isn't splendid racer- only that Fangio might have been a shade even better.

I, for one, hold both in very high regard (with many other 'usual suspects').

[Rob Miller]

Perhaps one reason why Ascari is sometimes overlooked is because the modern era more or less began with the Lancia and Mercedes Grand Prix and sports cars in 1954. The Alfas were an old design and Formula 2 does not have much of a ring to it.

I suspect that the opinions of Italian, French, German and Spanish speakers differ from ours as we are influenced by the books and articles we read in the English language.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by David McKinney

Then you obviously didn't find anything about the 1953 German GP. Or the 1954 Mille Miglia. Or the Italian GP the same year
(OTTOMH)

Are you sure about this?

In the 1953 German Grand Prix he went very fast after taking over Villoresi's car but his fastest lap (9min 56)was only 1.1 seconds better than Farina's best. This was Ascari's only lap in under 10 mins after taking over Villoresi's car, while Farina did three. In the '54 MM he was over 4.5 minutes behind Taruffi in a similar car at Rome. Ascari took the lead when Taruffi retired and held it to the finish. In the 1954 Italian Grand Prix he was competitive until his retirement, but I don't think it's being unduly Anglo-centric to say that it is Moss's drive that people remember from that race.

none of this is intended to suggest that Ascari doesn't belong among the truly greats, but I think Ray has a point. Unless you believe that the 'ring in '57 was overrated.

[HDonaldCapps]

Unless you believe that the 'ring in '57 was overrated.

We tend to forget that the Scuderia Ferrari and their duo unwittingly helped Fangio by backing off and underestimating the capabilities of the man if he was highly motivated. This does not constitute saying the drive was "overrated," only that his opponents made several lapses which greatly assisted his cause. Note the term "assisted." I think that little would have saved them that day, only that it would have taken Fangio a little bit longer to make mincemeat of them.

[HDonaldCapps]

IDon- I don't think many in here have 'either-or' attitude, but one will naturally have own favourite (between the two) for whatever reason. Sometimes, as in this case, even the 'objective' differences are subtle- so e.g. when one says Fangio might have been better racer, that doesn't mean Ascari isn't splendid racer- only that Fangio might have been a shade even better .

So much for this this not being an "either Ned or Ted..."

I suspect that the opinions of Italian, French, German and Spanish speakers differ from ours as we are influenced by the books and articles we read in the English language.

This is perhaps one of the biggest problems here at TNF, but I will not say much more for fear of once more goring an ox or putting a sacred cow on the grill....

[Wolf]

Don, I hope I'm not being pain in the a**, but what would be wrong with that statement? Maybe I wasn't exact in wording, but I meant 'racer' (in that example) as a term to describe only one part of driving skill- others being e.g. sheer speed, precision, smoothness, 'mechanical sympaty', pacing, stamina, intelligence, grit, &c, &c (of course, even those are subject to individual opinions)...