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Motorcycle racing: 1949-1968 nostalgia


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#7451 Ray Oldam

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 19:17

Paul,

Thanks - I shall get along there and have a look! It's less than an hour away from us down in the New Forest, and I think he has quite a few interesting machines tucked away there.

All the best

Ray :wave:


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#7452 larryd

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 19:54

Larry,

Hi. Hope you are well. It does look like one I think!! Mick Walker's 'Manx Norton' book has a photo of a partly-assembled bke, and the frame construction looks almost identical. I suppose Norton actually got there first then - what a shame they didn't continue with the idea.

All the best.

Ray :wave:


Hi Ray - we're fine - and you?

I think you'll find that Moto Guzzi got there first - and did it best!

Coincidentally, I spent some time today with a friend of the same vintage as myself who, in his day, raced KTT Velos, 7Rs and Manxes when they were the bikes to have.

He also had a couple of outings, in the late 60s, on Trevor Barnes's ex-Arthur Wheeler, ex-factory 350 Guzzi of 1957 vintage - he reckons it was the best going and handling racer he ever rode!

Nothing is new . . . . . . . . . . .

Reverting to the Norton "F", and according to Charlie Edwards, he and Ray Amm took it to MIRA in late 1954 for what turned out to be its only outing.

Back at Bracebridge Street, Ray was over the moon, only to be told that Norton were packing up the works team - no more specials.

Apparently, he immediately rang MV (from Nortons!) and asked if they had a place for him.

Sadly, did they ever . . . . . . .


#7453 germanty

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 08:51

No -- Andy's correct. The Nougier 500-4 it is!

Shown in the MCN of 12/11/1958 The Nougier http://img705.images...1/1xnougier.png

Mick Woolett reports. http://img829.images...2/2xnougier.png

#7454 Herr Wankel

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 08:59

Shown in the MCN of 12/11/1958 The Nougier http://img705.images...1/1xnougier.png

Mick Woolett reports. http://img829.images...2/2xnougier.png


Doesn't appear to be too much wrong that aset of 'Roadholders' wouldn't fix !
Must have made Herr Fath think very hard !

HW

#7455 Rennmax

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:13

Doesn't appear to be too much wrong that aset of 'Roadholders' wouldn't fix !
Must have made Herr Fath think very hard !

HW


Though his initial concept allegedly was a 4 cylinder watercooled boxer, but developing additionally a own gearbox/secondary drive was beyond even his enthusiasm....

Edited by Rennmax, 30 September 2011 - 15:14.


#7456 philippe7

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 19:12

The 1971 Nougier 250 twin mentioned before
http://www.lecaav.co...o/nougier-4.jpg

And another view of the 500/4
http://www.lecaav.co...o/nougier-1.jpg

Both as they are today in a museum near Marseille. They take on the track occasionnally...

#7457 Ray Oldam

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 21:54

Larry,

We're good thanks - haven't been on here for a while - work, moving, and a few other things to deal with, but all settling down again now!

An interesting era for your friend to have raced in. You are right of course, it all started with Moto Guzzi, and what amazing things those singles were. I think the KTT was another milestone in development - though girder forks can't have been easy. Surprisingly, I can actually say I have ridden with them! Dennis and I grafted some old scrap ones we found onto a pushbike - they went on there okay with some reconditioning work and a few little mods, but it was a bit front end heavy for jumps and wheelies! Fast forward 20 years and someone invented the mountain bike - were we ahead of our time or what??

It was such a shame Norton didn't persevere with the type F. Ray Amm was obvously impressed, and I'm sure he would have turned in some real results with it. I wonder how it handled? I think it is the potential weak area with the spine frame - certainly the Aermacchi used to jump about a bit compared to the Ducati I started racing on. I assumed it was all down to the frame flexing. Interesting to know how the Type F compared to the Featherbed frame.

Incidentally, things have come full circle on the pushbike front! Last year I got a Trek 400 with front suspension, alloy frame and disc brakes. - it weighs virtually nothing! I can wheelie it too, but Carol keeps telling me not to do them! :rotfl:

All the best

Ray

Edited by Ray Oldam, 02 October 2011 - 21:56.


#7458 Russell Burrows

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 17:05

Perhaps they're no longer de rigueur, but we can still whack one up now and again, can't we? WWW?
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#7459 pmbboy

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 18:47

Perhaps they're no longer de rigueur, but we can still whack one up now and again, can't we? WWW?
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Hi,
I have not been on for while now but seeing that it was a WWW I thought to give it a go.
I would say it is Assen not sure when maybe 1966.
The bike at the front looks like a twin Paton and then I think there are a couple of Bultacos following,
The only rider I feel sure of is Jim Redman no4 and maybe Ginger Molloy no30
Not much else to add
Peter





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#7460 Ray Oldam

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 18:55

Russell,

Oh yes they are. Always good to see them!

Not sure, but Alberto Pagani, Paton 19, Ginger Molloy, Bultaco 36, Jim Redman, Honda 4, don't know the others, but one other Bultaco in there - Dutch TT Assen 1964?? Redman's Honda looks like a four and they had the six in 1965 I think. De Strubben? (it's the only corner name I know there anyway!!)

ATB

Ray :wave:



#7461 omobono

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 19:03

Perhaps they're no longer de rigueur, but we can still whack one up now and again, can't we? WWW?
Posted Image


It certainly looks like Alberto Pagani on a Paton. 1965 250 Dutch TT. Barry Smith Bultaco. If its not Jim Redman, Bruce Beale Honda.? Don't know who 16 is. Ginger Molloy Bultaco and Kevin Cass Cotton

#7462 Herr Wankel

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 20:26

It certainly looks like Alberto Pagani on a Paton. 1965 250 Dutch TT. Barry Smith Bultaco. If its not Jim Redman, Bruce Beale Honda.? Don't know who 16 is. Ginger Molloy Bultaco and Kevin Cass Cotton

Possibly Rex Avery #16

HW


#7463 Russell Burrows

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 21:41

Well done boys, you've nailed most of them. Pagani on the Paton leading Barry Smith on his TSS, then Brucle Beale -who is has to be said is often difficult to distinguish from his mentor, Redman - on what appears to be a CR72, with Rex Avery on another Bultaco, and Marsovsky following him also riding a Bultaco, and someone who could well be Kevin Cass at the rear. Assen in, I think, '65. it is possible to see a bigger version at the source  ;)

Edited by Russell Burrows, 05 October 2011 - 22:27.


#7464 Russell Burrows

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 17:55

Can anyone ID these dudes?
Posted Image
I'll credit the source after someone tells us who's who.

#7465 picblanc

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 18:12

Can anyone ID these dudes?
Posted Image
I'll credit the source after someone tells us who's who.


I think I can see Tommy Robb & Rod Gould? not bad for a youngen I hope! :D

#7466 Ray Oldam

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 19:07

Russell,

John Surtees third from left, and is it Ralph Bryans to the right of Tommy Robb?? Looks like a car meeting maybe?

Ray :wave:


#7467 philippe7

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 19:09

And John Surtees third from let ? At some kind of joint bike-car meeting ( looks like the old Le Mans grandstands in the background

edit : dammit....pipped at the flag !

Edited by philippe7, 10 October 2011 - 19:10.


#7468 fil2.8

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 19:47

Chris Conn far right :up: ??


#7469 jaybee49

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 20:38

Rod Gould, John Surtees, Joe Dunphy, Tommy Robb - Dont know - Dont know - Chris Conn.

#7470 Bernard

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 20:41

If phillipe7 is right there was a motorcycle race at the Le Mans Test Day once (cannot for the life of me remember what year) but DSJ of all people did the report for Motorcycle Sport.

#7471 fil2.8

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 20:48

Agreed , Jim sure looks like Joe Dunphy to me :up: :wave:

#7472 philippe7

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 21:42

If phillipe7 is right there was a motorcycle race at the Le Mans Test Day once (cannot for the life of me remember what year) but DSJ of all people did the report for Motorcycle Sport.



There was indeed a motorcycle race called "Le Criterium de l'ACO" which was staged from 1961 to 1970 on the "long" Le Mans Circuit during the April test days for the 24 hours car race , taking advantage of the roads being closed for the occasion ( the long Le Mans track wasn't - and still isn't completely today - a "permanent" circuit ) .

Details and result on the late Vincent Glon's website :

http://racingmemo.fr.....E CRIMANS.htm

#7473 knickerbrook

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 12:40

Agree with all the answers, and I think third from right is Lewis Young?

#7474 Macca

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 13:48

And I think it's 1967, as the car appears to be a Lola T70 which JS drove that year.

Paul M

#7475 Russell Burrows

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 13:56

Can anyone ID these dudes?
Posted Image
I'll credit the source after someone tells us who's who.


Yes chaps: Gould; Surtees; Dunphy (how often did he venture to foreign parts ?); Robb; I think, Lewis Yong and Rob Fitton, next to Chris Conn. It is Le Mans, and apparently, despite the dodgy fifties haircuts, it's 1967.
Pic courtesy of vintage-motorcyle.com.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 11 October 2011 - 14:01.


#7476 larryd

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 17:16

Yes chaps: Gould; Surtees; Dunphy (how often did he venture to foreign parts ?); Robb; I think, Lewis Yong and Rob Fitton, next to Chris Conn. It is Le Mans, and apparently, despite the dodgy fifties haircuts, it's 1967.
Pic courtesy of vintage-motorcyle.com.


So would the mechanic be Jim Potton ?

#7477 Russell Burrows

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 19:05

So would the mechanic be Jim Potton ?

Erm....could well be ;)


#7478 Rennmax

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 19:29

Anyone knows this one ??

Posted Image

Looks a bit like the Marsh but what does the S in 'S4' stand for ?

Edited by Rennmax, 12 October 2011 - 19:31.


#7479 exclubracer

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 20:58

Anyone knows this one ??

Posted Image

Looks a bit like the Marsh but what does the S in 'S4' stand for ?

Nice looking machine, I especially like the heel and toe gear change :up:

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#7480 Russell Burrows

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 19:52

Isn't there something of the car motor about this one, Renn? Who I wonder would build what appears to be a muliti cylindered engine at that time and use a small single carb ?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 13 October 2011 - 19:55.


#7481 Herr Wankel

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 21:08

Isn't there something of the car motor about this one, Renn? Who I wonder would build what appears to be a muliti cylindered engine at that time and use a small single carb ?


Italian ??

HW

#7482 roadshop

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 22:04

Italian ??

HW

Looks like something Simson could have done..

#7483 fil2.8

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 22:15

Looks like something Simson could have done..



Which one , Bart :eek: , or Homer :lol: ??


#7484 roadshop

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 22:54

Which one , Bart :eek: , or Homer :lol: ??


Stop joking!... really, I´m trying to be serious here!

#7485 Rennmax

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:27

Isn't there something of the car motor about this one, Renn? Who I wonder would build what appears to be a muliti cylindered engine at that time and use a small single carb ?


Yep, the only, at least visible, carb looks pretty strange. I guess the engine ís too compact to be derived from a car engine, the awful long drive chain for the camshafts looks a bit home constructor made IMHO

Edited by Rennmax, 15 October 2011 - 06:34.


#7486 terryshep

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 17:51

Yep, the only, at least visible, carb looks pretty strange. I guess the engine ís too compact to be derived from a car engine, the awful long drive chain for the camshafts looks a bit home constructor made IMHO

Surely a factory production, there's some serious pattern-making expertise in those castings. Could the gearbox be an oldish Sturmey-Archer, a la pre-war Nortons, etc?

#7487 Herr Wankel

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 13:02

Surely a factory production, there's some serious pattern-making expertise in those castings. Could the gearbox be an oldish Sturmey-Archer, a la pre-war Nortons, etc?


Looks like one of those upright Norton boxes to me Terry

HW

#7488 larryd

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 16:45

Looks like one of those upright Norton boxes to me Terry

HW


That'll be the Norton "doll's head" box.

Plus - I've only just noticed two carbs with a shared float chamber, rather than one as sugested by Russ B ?

A British "special"??


#7489 Russell Burrows

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 17:36

That'll be the Norton "doll's head" box.

Plus - I've only just noticed two carbs with a shared float chamber, rather than one as sugested by Russ B ?

A British "special"??


Yeah, I see it now - seems to be set lower than the other one ? Or that might be my minces.

#7490 Stu Pidman

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 21:46

Yeah, I see it now - seems to be set lower than the other one ? Or that might be my minces.


I think there are 4 there.
I think I can see two venturi on this side of the frame and three fuel lines so presumably there are two more venturi on the blind side.
Anyone seen my white stick?

Edited by Stu Pidman, 19 October 2011 - 22:08.


#7491 knickerbrook

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 14:38

Nicked from those superb French links on our 1969-1990 forum.
Its begging to be WWW'd!

Posted Image



#7492 jaybee49

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 14:47

L/R. Pat Mahoney, Terry Grotefield, Neil Kelly, Percy Tate, Kevin Kass, Mike Hailwood, Phil Read, Rodney Gould, Barry Randle, Brian Ball, Rex Butcher, Ray Pickrill, Giacomo Agostini, John Cooper.

#7493 knickerbrook

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 15:06

On the ball as usual Jim!

And it's Gordon Daniels at the back between Percy and Read ..... and could that be a bit of Alan Barnett's helmet showing alongside Cooper?

Edited by knickerbrook, 21 October 2011 - 15:13.


#7494 rotrax

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 15:14

Speak out the word , and TRANSPORTER NERD is here ! A Jaguar sedan with a trailer ?

Hi, I am years late with this but I saw Paddy Drivers Jaguar transporter on the IOM ferry in 1966. It had a coachbuilt estate back with ash trim, a la Morris Minor. Two race bikes with front wheels out would easily fit in the back. One would imagine that getting to a meeting on time was not a problem! I've also read the next post along where another poster has put the same info on. I'll get the hang of this forum one day...........

Edited by rotrax, 21 October 2011 - 15:17.


#7495 jaybee49

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 15:27

On the ball as usual Jim!

And it's Gordon Daniels at the back between Percy and Read ..... and could that be a bit of Alan Barnett's helmet showing alongside Cooper?


Oh okay, I just looked quickly without my specs and I thought it was Kevin. The name Gordon Daniels means really not a great deal to me now to be honest. :rolleyes: Could be AB next to JC, but I would not like to say - Again, I can't see enough of him, it would just be a guess..

#7496 germanty

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 16:30

Nicked from those superb French links on our 1969-1990 forum.
Its begging to be WWW'd!

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Extreme left in black helmet - Tony Godfrey?

#7497 GD66

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 00:15

I'm thinking Tony Smith on the BSA.

#7498 philippe7

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 03:16

Sorry to ask the ( maybe ) obvious, but what sort of machine is Phil Read riding ? Looks like a 4 cylinders with the top exhausts, but there never was a 350-4 ( although the side plate looks blue ) and he wouldn't be riding a 250 vs Ago's MV and the manxes and G50's.....or perhaps would he ? ....

#7499 GD66

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 04:49

250 V-4, all comers were invited in the Race of the Year, hence Ago on the 500/3 vs Cooper on the Rocket 3 in 1971 etc...

I'd say the race pictured would be the 1968 event.

Edited by GD66, 22 October 2011 - 04:56.


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#7500 fil2.8

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 09:16

250 V-4, all comers were invited in the Race of the Year, hence Ago on the 500/3 vs Cooper on the Rocket 3 in 1971 etc...

I'd say the race pictured would be the 1968 event.



And he ( Lutonboy ) very nearly won the 1965 Race of the Year on the RD56, 250 twin , beaten by ' Coops ' after water attacked the Yamaha's electrics , IIRC , :eek: