184 replies to this topic

[Dolph]

We've all remember the very short and conclusive discussion about Michael Schumacher's actions in Monaco qualifying in this years race. This thread however, is not about that (I repeat, IT IS NOT ABOUT MICHAEL SCHUMACHER'S ACTIONS IN 2006 MONACO QUALIFYING). This is about all other cheating that goes on in motor-racing which is NOT F1.

Here is an article that discusses cheating in NASCAR:
(please note that habits include spinning other drivers, oneself or throughing debris out on track to bring out a favorable caution).

http://www.washingto...6110400879.html

[djned]

indeed! the gordon incident i couldn't believe, but this article is a revelation, i had no idea this was an established form of 'sportsmanship' in nascar...

and pulling out the fire extinguisher and setting it off, what is this, like the gadget mobile or something?!

(i'm sure he'd like to think he's james bond driving a q-equipped car. but no.)

[turin]

The folks in the technical forum were having a blast with this topic

Linky

[ensign14]

There is a book about cheating in NASCAR...called simply "Cheating".

[Calorus]

We're lucky Scott Speed was basically brought up in Europe...

[stevewf1]

I once heard that Gary Nelson, NASCAR's current chief technical inspector (among other duties) was hired because he was once known as a "master cheater" in that series...

:

[Milt]

One of my favorite racing quotes came from a NASCAR mechanic:

"It’s our job to cheat, it’s their job to catch us".

[CWeil]

A friend at home works as a Busch and sometimes Nextel official, doing undercar and suspension inspections, and he said that about 70% of the cars that come in have something illegal on them somewhere. Sometimes multiple. They simply tell them to change it, and usually they do. NASCAR has actually gotten pretty good at catching cheaters, for reasons mentioned above. But, everyone does it, they almost all get caught, but you only hear about it when they run something nobody catches.

It's a lovely racing series.

[Fausta]

And you can bet they try to do it in F1 too!

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Fausta
And you can bet they try to do it in F1 too!

In F1 teams push the development within regulations, but FIA cheats to direct the compettion and bans legal devices.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Not really legal if its banned, is it.

[Calorus]

FIA runs things in a far better way - if you're caught it's not a case of "Change it" it's a case of "You're not racing this weekend." Or in extreme cases you're not racing for another year.

[CWeil]

Originally posted by micra_k10

In F1 teams push the development within regulations, but FIA cheats to direct the compettion and bans legal devices.

Or, really, to keep costs down, because unlike NASCAR, all the other teams will find out when another has new, effective technology, and will research tirelessly until they understand and can utilize it themselves. This costs a lot of money for very little gain. In NASCAR, by comparison, cheating is very, very cheap. Even if it's doing microscale laser perforations in the restrictor plate, this is monstrously cheap compared to what F1 teams are willing to spend. It makes sense. But look at it how you want.

[scotchman]

I think cheating goes on in almost every form of motor racing around the World. I guess the best cheats are the ones who know how not to get caught.

We the fans just don't get to hear about it much. It might hit the headlines only if it is such a blatant infraction of the rules(Chad Knaus at the Daytona 500 in february for example) or the Robby Gordon incident 2 weeks ago.

[BorderReiver]

Originally posted by Calorus
We're lucky Scott Speed was basically brought up in Europe...

Why's that then? Because no European's ever done something illegal on a race track has he?

[Wouter]

That's quite hallucinating, I didn't know the situation in NASCAR was like this. They even spin each other out on purpose, on ovals, just to get that caution?

[stevewf1]

Originally posted by Wouter
That's quite hallucinating, I didn't know the situation in NASCAR was like this. They even spin each other out on purpose, on ovals, just to get that caution?

If you're interested, here's a rather lengthy article...

http://www.stockcarr..._race_cheating/

[Hondanisti]

Originally posted by BorderReiver


Why's that then? Because no European's ever done something illegal on a race track has he?

well there's been a plethora of links to books and whatnot about NASCAR's "norm" of expecting cheating as part of the culture.

There's also a notion out there that you bend the interpretation of the rules or find loopholes that weren't specified in the rules that need clarification (eg. flexi-wing controversy early in the F1 2006 season) - that is not out right blatant cheating.


This seems to be inherent in F1 and probably in a lot of racing series.

It's not that there aren't Europeans who cheat vs. Americans but they're less "in your face" about it and the notion of a Karl Rovian "play dirty to win at all cost" is less palatable compared to the NASCAR examples stated in this thread.

[HDonaldCapps]

well there's been a plethora of links to books and whatnot about NASCAR's "norm" of expecting cheating as part of the culture.

A number of these have not let facts gets in the way of a good story and "plethora" would scarcely describe the number of books on this topic.

There's also a notion out there that you bend the interpretation of the rules or find loopholes that weren't specified in the rules that need clarification (eg. flexi-wing controversy early in the F1 2006 season) - that is not out right blatant cheating.
This seems to be inherent in F1 and probably in a lot of racing series.

The difference between "bending the interpretation of the rules or find loopholes that weren't specified in the rules that need clarification" and "cheating" in the sense being discussed is that there isn't any. It simply the way the concept is expressed.

It's not that there aren't Europeans who cheat vs. Americans but they're less "in your face" about it and the notion of a Karl Rovian "play dirty to win at all cost" is less palatable compared to the NASCAR examples stated in this thread.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Hondanisti


well there's been a plethora of links to books and whatnot about NASCAR's "norm" of expecting cheating as part of the culture.

There's also a notion out there that you bend the interpretation of the rules or find loopholes that weren't specified in the rules that need clarification (eg. flexi-wing controversy early in the F1 2006 season) - that is not out right blatant cheating.


This seems to be inherent in F1 and probably in a lot of racing series.

It's not that there aren't Europeans who cheat vs. Americans but they're less "in your face" about it and the notion of a Karl Rovian "play dirty to win at all cost" is less palatable compared to the NASCAR examples stated in this thread.

LOL there is no difference between flexible aero surfaces in F1 (which seem to crop up annually now) and the infractions in NASCAR. It's exactly the same game.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Hmm, I disagree. NASCAR always struck me as being unique (even within American racing) as being more about tuner tricks than pushing the boundaries of design. That may be down to the nature of their rulebooks and that the series hasn't fundamentally changed that much. In the vein that wooden blocks between suspension coils just can't happen on a modern F1 car.

[McGuire]

LOL I am not saying both series are identical. I said that cheating in both series is the same game. There is really no difference between flex-aero and anything Chad Knaus has been caught with.

There is cheating in every series and there always will be as long as the opportunity exists. If F1 is populated with a higher class of people why do they still bother with scrutineering?

[Calorus]

Originally posted by BorderReiver


Why's that then? Because no European's ever done something illegal on a race track has he?

No, loads have but the difference is between standard practice and something to be ashamed of.

[Locai]

Originally posted by ensign14
There is a book about cheating in NASCAR...called simply "Cheating".

Yes. It's a very interesting read. I have it on my bookshelf.

I particularly liked the different methods they used to employ to (literally) drop weight before NASCAR wised up and started weighing the cars AFTER the race. They would weld weights to the wheels of the first set of tires (ran like crap, but that second set of tires ran noticeably better). Trap doors where they could release sand out of the body right on the track during the race.

The scary thing was the hidden Nitrous bottles in the roll cage tubing. That lasted NASCAR threatened to drill holes in the tubing and the teams were worried they'd blow up the car and everybody else around it.

There's always been rumors that certain teams are running traction-control at various races. One company that sells a system claims as much. Nobody's been "officially" caught, but NASCAR has said that if they ever catch anybody that they will blackball the team, the driver, their mothers, etc and chop the car up right in the garage.

NASCAR's strategy seems to be that, if the rules don't explicitly say you can't do it and they catch you doing it, then they'll tell you not to do it again. It's stupid to penalize somebody just because they thought of a way to "cheat" that the rules-makers never thought of.

You've just gotta love "Redneck Engineering".

[Zmeej]

Even Schumi never did that.

[Wouter]

Originally posted by stevewf1


If you're interested, here's a rather lengthy article...

http://www.stockcarr..._race_cheating/

While that article was interesting, exploits of gray areas and even downright cheating with the car have happened in (for example) F1 and WRC, too.

What was mentioned earlier about using fire extinguishers, throwing things out of the cars and spinning of others intentionally to get a caution, that's the surprising and rather disgusting thing. The way those things are told, it gives the impression things like that are or used to be fairly normal in NASCAR.

While Senna, Mansell and Schumacher have done their share of pushing people out of races, at least that were events that shocked F1, and it was always with major rivals (and it didn't happen every few races). In NASCAR though, apparently people used to get pushed of the track so the offender could get a well-timed caution, and few eyebrows would be raised? At least that's the impression I got from the earlier article.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Locai

The scary thing was the hidden Nitrous bottles in the roll cage tubing. That lasted NASCAR threatened to drill holes in the tubing and the teams were worried they'd blow up the car and everybody else around it.

Or, in the case of a certain veteran ChampCar driver who always showed astonishing speed in Indy 500 qualifying, in the overalls...

[black magic]

the truth is that motor racing has never really ahd that ethic of always being honourable. from time dot people have bent, broken the rules or tried stunts to get events to go their way. (unlike golf where strict adherence to the ethic of following the rules is part of the ethos of the sport - is it the only professional sport in which this remains?)

I guess it is cheating but where do you draw the line. isn't it cheating to tap the guy in front and spin him to get passed - happens every race in saloon car racing. cheating? - well it is if you cant get passed any other way.

jack brabham was notorious for deliberately running wide to get the stones to be spat out at the guy trying to get passed. now we regard that as colourful , clever and part of folklore.

it also reinforces that the reaction to monaco was over the top. he deserved a penalty if he got caught as did gordon but not all the sanctimonious crap and vilification that came with it.

[whitewaterMkII]

I think it was Roger Penske who once said "If you're not cheating, you're not trying" the stuff he used to do was amazing, right down to the infamous Mercedes 'Panzer' 209ci motor that was built in secret to the 'rules' that the geriatic USAC guys considered an 'equivalancy' formula to the 2.65 L turbos. He even dipped his Trans Am cars in acid until they were paper thin in order to lower the COG, and peel off weight his fellow competitors couldn't seem to.

I used to work on an NHRA team, and part of the fun was giving the appearance we were cheating, when we were not. Since fuel delivery is such a huge part of what we were doing, we used to run dummy fuel lines here and there in conjunction with RacePak sensors that did nothing. But just the appearance of all these things had all the other teams, either psyched out, or complaining to the officials that we were cheating. Luckily, the tech guys in the NHRA are totally close mouthed, so all they would tell the other teams is that what we were doing was fair, not that we were just messing with them. Inevitably, someone would make a lame ass guess at what our dummy lines were alleged to be doing and try it on their car, which would blow it up, or make it run like crap.
Hee Hee
Even when you don't cheat, just the reputation you get for possibly cheating and not getting caught at it, is a huge psychological advantage over the competetion, we found.

[Orin]

Originally posted by black magic
the truth is that motor racing has never really ahd that ethic of always being honourable. from time dot people have bent, broken the rules or tried stunts to get events to go their way.

There's always been a few blackguards, but the sport has been honourable to a very large extent: even post Senna.

(unlike golf where strict adherence to the ethic of following the rules is part of the ethos of the sport - is it the only professional sport in which this remains?)

Actually, most sports still maintain this ethos: all athletics, snooker, cricket, tennis, rugby, lawn bowls, curling, etc. Actually, just about every sport bar football!

jack brabham was notorious for deliberately running wide to get the stones to be spat out at the guy trying to get passed. now we regard that as colourful , clever and part of folklore.

Wouldn't it be nice if that was as bad as F1 got?: no chops, just a bit of corner cutting to kick dirt in the opponent's face.

it also reinforces that the reaction to monaco was over the top. he deserved a penalty if he got caught as did gordon but not all the sanctimonious crap and vilification that came with it.

Deliberately blocking the track to prevent competitors setting a fair time? If anything the sanction was too lenient, that was one of the most disgustingly cynical moves the sport has seen.

[John B]

I wouldn't call these acts especially common in NASCAR. There have been a handful, but consider the number of races per year and different series involved. If someone throws debris out of the car in a Busch race then Robby Gordon does it 6 months later in a Cup event, doesn't really seem like an epidemic to me. The SChrader extinguisher story, wasn't that a local short track event?

Actually if you look at it there have probably been more controversies involving officials and 'calls' - i.e. Dale Jr not being penalized for a below the line pass at Talladega a couple years ago, his father keeping wins after spinning people after Ricky Rudd was DQed for doing the same, or the timing of some of the debris cautions.

[black magic]

gee orin. want to add a few more sports to the list.

cricket - honourable if you exclude the match fixing scandals, the ball tamperings. need I go on

pro cycling - enough said

tennis hennin arden and her illnesses, all that racket tossing

athletics - you are joking I presume or have you missed the drug cheats over the last now 30 yrs?

I'll give you rugby if you ignore some well pumped up bodies.

and as for curling, snooker, and lawn bowls - gee picked some high profile sports there buddy.

[Orin]

Originally posted by black magic
gee orin. want to add a few more sports to the list.

cricket - honourable if you exclude the match fixing scandals, the ball tamperings. need I go on

pro cycling - enough said

tennis hennin arden and her illnesses, all that racket tossing

athletics - you are joking I presume or have you missed the drug cheats over the last now 30 yrs?

I'll give you rugby if you ignore some well pumped up bodies.

and as for curling, snooker, and lawn bowls - gee picked some high profile sports there buddy.

I didn't put cycling into the list, but the rest are all sports where - apart from the odd exception - the competitors stick rigidly to the rules of the sport and obey the ref without question. We can question their preparation away from events, but while competing these sportsmen do on the whole behave ethically. BTW, curling, snooker & lawn bowls are big in the UK! (well, fairly)

[Jerome]

Funny, I was just re-reading the Unfair Advantage by Mark Donohue, probably the most sincere and honest racedriver that has ever walked the face of the earth. He recalls he was leading a race in front of George (?) Folmer, who was right on his tail, and was setting him up for a lastlap overtaking move on the straight. Donohue first starting mixing up his braking points - fifty feet earlier, fifty later - and then drove on purpose with his inside front wheel through the dirt in a fast corner, throwing up dirt and stones behind him. Next thing he knows, looking back in his rearview window, Folmer is spinning at high speed. Donohuie won the race.

Cheating, tactics? You have the word.

[Calorus]

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
Funny, I was just re-reading the Unfair Advantage by Mark Donohue, probably the most sincere and honest racedriver that has ever walked the face of the earth. He recalls he was leading a race in front of George (?) Folmer, who was right on his tail, and was setting him up for a lastlap overtaking move on the straight. Donohue first starting mixing up his braking points - fifty feet earlier, fifty later - and then drove on purpose with his inside front wheel through the dirt in a fast corner, throwing up dirt and stones behind him. Next thing he knows, looking back in his rearview window, Folmer is spinning at high speed. Donohuie won the race.

Cheating, tactics? You have the word.

Personally, I'd stop short of caling that cheating. But that's just me - in a competitive situation it's the follower's job to pass. The rules state you must have 2 wheels on (or over) the circuit at all times, and from the sounds of it that's what he had. If Folmer had been cannier, he'd have read Donohue better and Taken another line when Donohue braked, rather than falling in line with Donohue as a marker. I'd say that was simply first rate defence. Had they made contact, or hade he weaved, it would have been an altogether different story.

[Jerome]

I don't think its cheating either... but just suppose Follmer (mispelled it the first time) had driven into a wall and hurt himself or a spectator?

Well...

[Calorus]

Then Follmer should have driven his own race. At the end of the day you are responsible for your car and no one elses.

If someone has track position, then it's your duty to negotiate them. They are only responsible for maintaining which ever racing line they deem fit, keeping two wheels on the circuit, and moving away from tht racing line only once.

Donohue disadvantaged himslef, leaving more that 3/4 of the tarmac (since he was part off the road) for Follmer to drive on. If Follmer couldn't make a move that took the position, or find somewhere safe to drive then tha's very much his responsibility.

[JSF]

Helmut Marco, the main man behind Red Bulls motor racing programs would have a few words to say about Donohue if he was indeed doing what you describe. Helmut was a very promising F1 and sports car driver in 1972, until a stone was thrown up from the back tyre of the car he was following, this penetrated his visor and destroyed his eye, ending his driving career.

Thankfully most modern circuits have protection to stop this happeing if someone goes off line, the lesser circuits where your up and coming driver learns his trade often dont, so if you are thinking about replicating what is posted above, please dont.

[Ross Stonefeld]

The protection has nothing to do with the circuits, but with the quality of visors, which are now bulletproof.

[Calorus]

Originally posted by JSF
Helmut Marco, the main man behind Red Bulls motor racing programs would have a few words to say about Donohue if he was indeed doing what you describe. Helmut was a very promising F1 and sports car driver in 1972, until a stone was thrown up from the back tyre of the car he was following, this penetrated his visor and destroyed his eye, ending his driving career.

Thankfully most modern circuits have protection to stop this happeing if someone goes off line, the lesser circuits where your up and coming driver learns his trade often dont, so if you are thinking about replicating what is posted above, please dont.

That's unfortunate, and is a freak accident. At the end of the day, he's lucky, though. Motorracing is a dangerous game - and I don't think anyone does it not accepting that they might end up dead. It's a thought that goes through your mind as soon as you turn a wheel on the track. So as rubbish as it is, i don't think he's blind enough not to see that these things happen and that sometimes there really is no blame.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
Funny, I was just re-reading the Unfair Advantage by Mark Donohue, probably the most sincere and honest racedriver that has ever walked the face of the earth. He recalls he was leading a race in front of George (?) Folmer, who was right on his tail, and was setting him up for a lastlap overtaking move on the straight. Donohue first starting mixing up his braking points - fifty feet earlier, fifty later - and then drove on purpose with his inside front wheel through the dirt in a fast corner, throwing up dirt and stones behind him. Next thing he knows, looking back in his rearview window, Folmer is spinning at high speed. Donohuie won the race.

Cheating, tactics? You have the word.

Probably got lernt that one by Parnelli.

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by Calorus

That's unfortunate, and is a freak accident. At the end of the day, he's lucky, though. Motorracing is a dangerous game - and I don't think anyone does it not accepting that they might end up dead. It's a thought that goes through your mind as soon as you turn a wheel on the track. So as rubbish as it is, i don't think he's blind enough not to see that these things happen and that sometimes there really is no blame.

His might have been a freak accident, but the fact is the same type of incident that caused his eye to be damaged has been done on purpose before. If I fire a gun in the air and it kills someone then even though that wasn't intentional, I am still Liable for for the death. Just because Donahue didn't blind someone or kill someone that type action should be allowed when accidental things like that have injured people. Like Mr. Earnheart (horrible spelling) if he killed someone else with his antics instead of himself I would expect that he would be brought up on charges.

[JSF]

Originally posted by Calorus

That's unfortunate, and is a freak accident. At the end of the day, he's lucky, though. Motorracing is a dangerous game - and I don't think anyone does it not accepting that they might end up dead. It's a thought that goes through your mind as soon as you turn a wheel on the track. So as rubbish as it is, i don't think he's blind enough not to see that these things happen and that sometimes there really is no blame.

If you do it on purpose, you are the person to blame, it's not unfortunate or a freak accident. I dont want anyone on a racing circuit near me doing that kind of iresponsible thing.

Most visors are not bullet proof Ross, i dont know anyone personally that is racing with a bulletproof visor.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by JSF


If you do it on purpose, you are the person to blame, it's not unfortunate or a freak accident. I dont want anyone on a racing circuit near me doing that kind of iresponsible thing.

Good, because I don't want anyone on a race track with me who is that much of a pussy. If you can't stand a little dirt or gravel thrown up in front of you, you can run off line or you can back off. But please, no whining.

You know, there are many forms of racing where the racing surface is ALL dirt. It s possible motor racing is not the sport for you. Perhaps you would be happier with lawn bowling or badminton.

[FrankB]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
The protection has nothing to do with the circuits, but with the quality of visors, which are now bulletproof.

Be careful Ross, in a previous thread about helmets the question of whether visors were bulletproof or not came up as a side issue. http://forums.autosp...ht=helmet visor Selective quoting of one of my dozen or so contributions elicited this response from the starter of this current thread... "I am sorry, but a person with this little IQ should not be allowed to post "

[McGuire]

This thread has grown very stupid. Obviously Ross was staking no claim that helmet face shields are literally "bulletproof." Even "bulletproof" glass is not literally bulletproof. It can save your life but it should not be used to tempt the fates. If bullets are flying your responsibility to get out of harm's way.

On the other hand, to equate flying dirt and gravel on a race track with flying bullets is even more idiotic. If you guys don't have the stomach for auto racing, find another sport more suited to your delicate sensibilities. Maybe you girlies would like a May pole in the yard.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Topweasel


His might have been a freak accident, but the fact is the same type of incident that caused his eye to be damaged has been done on purpose before. If I fire a gun in the air and it kills someone then even though that wasn't intentional, I am still Liable for for the death. Just because Donahue didn't blind someone or kill someone that type action should be allowed when accidental things like that have injured people. Like Mr. Earnheart (horrible spelling) if he killed someone else with his antics instead of himself I would expect that he would be brought up on charges.

You have GOT to be kidding me. That thinking has NO PLACE in motor sports.

Here, every lap people make split-second decisions that can easily result in death, injury or at the very least extreme financial loss. And when -- not if -- something does go wrong, the result will never be fair or just for any of the parties involved.

If you can't handle that, please get out of my sport and go find something else to do that is more compatible with your personal value system.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by McGuire

On the other hand, to equate flying dirt and gravel on a race track with flying bullets is even more idiotic. If you guys don't have the stomach for auto racing, find another sport more suited to your delicate sensibilities. Maybe you girlies would like a May pole in the yard.

I think Prince Fairy and his prissy consorts were talking about rocks and stones, not dust and gravel.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Foxbat


I think Prince Fairy and his prissy consorts were talking about rocks and stones, not dust and gravel.

By all means let's explore all the various types of road aggregate by specific class and category, this being that kind of discussion.

At any dirt track in North America, you will find "rocks" and "stones" along with the "dust" and "gravel" which make up the entirety of the racing surface. Somehow the participants survive the experience. Most of them even have a good time, which is more than can be said for some of the folks around here.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
Funny, I was just re-reading the Unfair Advantage by Mark Donohue, probably the most sincere and honest racedriver that has ever walked the face of the earth. He recalls he was leading a race in front of George (?) Folmer, who was right on his tail, and was setting him up for a lastlap overtaking move on the straight. Donohue first starting mixing up his braking points - fifty feet earlier, fifty later - and then drove on purpose with his inside front wheel through the dirt in a fast corner, throwing up dirt and stones behind him. Next thing he knows, looking back in his rearview window, Folmer is spinning at high speed. Donohuie won the race.

Cheating, tactics? You have the word.

What this shows is that while Donohue has been elevated to sainthood in the collective memory, in fact he was a normal, competitive guy. The book reveals that he was playful and fun-loving, not a cardboard cutout, as well as underlining how sincere and honest he was, just as you say. To me his book is very touching in that regard. I re-read it often myself.

Driving offline to throw some junk onto the track is perhaps a little dirty, but it is not entirely unsporting. And to regard it as felony assault or attempted manslaughter, as has been done here, is beyond ridiculous.